Incomplete isn't the same as blank and å and ä cannot both be on A. There isn't so many keys that even the most absentminded multilinquist would have issue remembering where they remapped their symbols and characters to which button, and I would prefer those places be for more important ~_`{things}?-:=|+Yes, remembering should be just as easy. Though AltGr/Meta + c = ç is easier to remember than AltGr + i = ç
The point is though that incomplete labels are strictly better than incorrect ones.
Thing is, if we're going to have accented letters with their own keys then we are going to *have* to be able to combine AltGR and Shift anyway, so that if (for example) á is mapped to AltGR+A then Á would need to be on AltGR+Shift+AIncomplete isn't the same as blank and å and ä cannot both be on A. There isn't so many keys that even the most absentminded multilinquist would have issue remembering where they remapped their symbols and characters to which button, and I would prefer those places be for more important ~_`{things}?-:=|+
I think that the idea of two shades of the alternate color to de-emphasize the 'weird foreign stuff' might be a good solution to tone down the 'English only!' crowd. I.e. you may have a good compromise there.
Additional benefits...
There are too many important details for a short-ish summary, but I guess that the important information is that there is actual progress.Can anybody make a summary of what have you been discussing or if we have a more or less conclussion? Thank you in advance
AAAHHHHH, MY EYES!!! SO BRIGHT! I know it won't really blind my very light sensitive eyes. I am not totally against it. I do find it undesirable if the cap can be colored with only the characters translucent. The keyboard LEDs probably won't be brighter than the display, but it has happened before on other devices, and it is irritating.
Easy albeit insensitive solution to keyboard back-light sensitivity.
Actually it doesn't make much sense to put the normally shifted values like ? or { only under AltGr + Shift like some of these proposals attempt to do. One AltGr + key for symbol is fewer "steps" than AltGr + Shift + key. The selective handful of these marks which are known to not play nice with DOSBox, like colon, ultimately could then also be under Shift + AltGr in addition to having their default AltGr + placements. The ample rest of the AltGr + Shift slots if unreserved can be what we would want them to be then.Thing is, if we're going to have accented letters with their own keys then we are going to *have* to be able to combine AltGR and Shift anyway, so that if (for example) á is mapped to AltGR+A then Á would need to be on AltGR+Shift+AIncomplete isn't the same as blank and å and ä cannot both be on A. There isn't so many keys that even the most absentminded multilinquist would have issue remembering where they remapped their symbols and characters to which button, and I would prefer those places be for more important ~_`{things}?-:=|+
That being the case it also makes sense to put the shifted symbols on the keyboard *as* shifted symbols, as 1) it would mean less customisation needs to be done to get the keyboard layouts right and 2) it means we have a lot more available space for internationalisation, and could offer optimised layouts for each language.
- Neelix
Not if painted on the underside or double shot caps, which should be done either way to prevent the markings from wearing off. My keys will be trashed pretty quickly, and if it is just painted on top I will have areas of paint missing like I do on other thumb keyboards that are painted due to stabbing the keys with my thumbnails sometimes.
Didn't ED already say we could get multiple colors?
Would they? I am not trying to debate it, I just don't recall seeing other things like this, and I figured it would be harder to see something small and opaque in front of a light than the other way around (like trying to see something between the observer and a star vs seeing a little light leaking through a wall in a dark room).
Can you give me a source for this? I don't think this is the case with backlit displays like it is with things that are viewed with reflected light. I personally find it easier to look at something mostly dark or black with a little light coming through than staring into a light.
That is all fine and dandy if you always have the keyboard LEDs off or on at the same setting, and the display set appropriately as well. If you have mismatched settings the situation I described may happen. I tend to have both my keyboard and display on other devices as dim as possible while still being useful to conserve battery life. I usually change settings so that when it is plugged in everything gets brighter so it is easier to see in a brightly lit room. If you have the keyboard lighting set to shut off after a set time and lowered screen brightness via touchscreen while plugged in you may forget that the backlight is bright until you get blasted by it.
Ooo, I like that idea. Would both ":" be labeled? I would like it if they were, against the objections of others.I can't seem to find this particular proposal of yours though. Was it a few pages back?
That is true, and is part of why I sometimes lower the brightness even when plugged in. I have modified browser colors on a couple of my devices, but that becomes a headache pretty quickly.
I must have missed this discussion. I see a lot of the benefits, especially if it gives us a good reason to have a less marked up keyboard and makes customization easier. I figured I would be in the minority for black key caps. I will let it go if people are generally opposed to it, however I wouldn't mind a link to the thread where this was discussed if someone comes across it at some point.
Colons are important even Java uses them now!
The AltGr + Shift values wouldn't get a print. Space on the key's caps is just too limited for them to fit.
I disagree and think it would be worthwhile having such standard characters printed. Not necessarily filling the entire keyboard, but if a character can be produced off two keys they should be labeled as such to avoid confusion. I'm counting up to 10 keys which could benefit from such a combo which shouldn't cause it to appear cluttered.If 3 characters can fit on a key then 4 can for sure as well. It may not look *as* nice, but they would still fit.
Fortunately for the sake of rationality, ED prefers keys that are labeled nice and relatively squint-free and less busied, leaving the fourth level modified characters to user memorization, should they ever need them.
Well that's what I'm saying, if you can fit three characters on a key then you can fit a fourth. Period. No need to make anything smaller. If you need to squint with four characters than you'll need to squint with three as they'll all be the same size.
But... if the numbers will also have fourth level values, then they must/should also be "printed" on those caps. Look at the number buttons on this here Pandora, which are identical in dimension to what they'll be on the Pyra. I don't see how anything on those keys won't be scaled down to fit a fourth mark, unless they are super cozy(=cluttered). -_-
It's a valid concern, but I think keyboard Fn/Meta should be a sticky modifier (like on the Pandora), and I would argue that keyboard Shift should also be sticky. So in that case we're not talking about combos but sequences. Also if you use shoulder button modifiers, it's obviously no problem since they're not part of the keyboard matrix.
