Instant Pandora with a premium?

[TrashyMG]

Yep, another long one. Thanks for reading, if you made it this far.

I skipped to this point..

 

[budweiser]

@ benji_stein


Very well said

 

[fraseyboy]

If this delays my Pandora I'll probably be pretty mad and I'll probably post a few rants but damnit I'm just too emotionally attached to this whole thing to ever cancel.

 

[ZXDunny]

I didn't sign up for this goat rope

Chortle.


D.

 

[moxie]

I think that at the time that the statement that said "The price you pay is still less than the price for parts" was issued, the specs on the machine was quite a bit lower. Also, that was before the original nubs company went belly-up, leading to the nubs costing quite a bit more. The machine we see today is not quite the same machine that this started out as.

 

[I8NY]

I like the pandora and i don't want it to fail.


1:You can't let ppl start jumping the line.


2:Start selling the pandora for more (~$500)


3:Sell the extra/refurbish ones on ebay for people who don't want to wait in line any longer.


4:If you want to charge ($100) more on existing pre-orders you got to give them something special in return. (case color?)


5:Maybe slow down assembly to make it cheaper? IDK

 

[benji_stein]

I think that at the time that the statement that said "The price you pay is still less than the price for parts" was issued, the specs on the machine was quite a bit lower. Also, that was before the original nubs company went belly-up, leading to the nubs costing quite a bit more. The machine we see today is not quite the same machine that this started out as.

Last I checked, the only significant difference between the original prototypes - other than being a prototype, of course - was the bump in RAM from 256 MB to 512 MB, which I understood was part of the bump in price from batch 1 to batch 2. I also got the sense that it was a fairly inexpensive upgrade, possibly encouraged by TI.


The nubs company did go belly-up, but only after they'd done the design - it was a different company that actually manufactured them. Or possibly that was the nub circuit boards. They cost double because of a lost shipment (not sure if that was ever resolved), but the recent issue of failing nubs was, according to OPT, covered by the nub manufacturer (not the designer), which was good, since it was really their own damn fault for not properly stress testing (not going to revisit that here).


Later on we might get new LCD cables and socketable nubs, but I have difficulty seeing huge increases in prices on those. Giant companies might try to save a couple pennies per item, since it turns into millions. But I don't see that with OPT.


So for these (including the 7-dayers) other than the 256 MB RAM, 20% difference in the nubs, a trace on the circuit board for the wireless chip (not so much a "difference" as the correction of a manufacturing error), and some silkscreening/painting, I don't really see huge differences under the hood. Maybe you're thinking of something else?

 

[budweiser]

Quoted from Iorgy77 on the other forum


"It is the case, the numbers dont add up. Craig posted that everyone up to 1000 would have shipping confirmation by the end of last week and that didnt happen and all of the sudden this.


So where are all these extra 7 day guaranteed shipping pandoras coming from?"


So how long will it be now?

 

[Arkay Firestar]

Eh, nevermind, I noticed Craig suggests they'd come out of batch 2. I guess that's something for people in batch 2 to have an opinion on. If it doesn't affect the first batch, I have no comment.

 

[XxionxX]

I am going to have to agree with Sugar_Kane. I feel like my emotions of watching for two years are getting in the way of seeing how this is good for the OPT.


I throw my full approval behind this decision.


If this is what it takes to keep the Pandora alive I will give full approval. I don't like that the team is not making money. They have worked hard, and they have put a lot on the line. I can totally understand if they need to raise the price.


I have have to jump on the boat with benji_stein though. You NEED to make sure these 7 day orders are %100 on time. I will cancel my order if this is not upheld. I will take it as a sign of fraud on the part of the company if this is not upheld to the letter.


If simple honesty is not upheld I no longer want to be part of this community.


Edit: I don't mean to level a threat, I just won't be part of something that would treat people like that.


Edit2: I also agree about the merchandise. If the team needs money it is a good way to go. I may not have another $200, but I do have $20 to spend. I can't just give it, my missus would kill me (she is saving for our wedding). But I would be able to convince her that I wanted a t-shirt or something.

 

[Miv]

@benji_stein 's long post and @XxionxX... craigx said there would be a limit to how many 7 day'rs can be ordered at a time.


But my concern is still that my queue number of '3750 - 3850' is going to come slower than if the 7 day deal didn't exist, due to lack of parts.

 

[XxionxX]

@benji_stein 's long post and @XxionxX... craigx said there would be a limit to how many 7 day'rs can be ordered at a time.


But my concern is still that my queue number of '3750 - 3850' is going to come slower than if the 7 day deal didn't exist, due to lack of parts.

I understand your hesitation, I have been waiting for two years myself. But you would be hurting the teams need for liquidity in their assets. If this does not happen the OPT team might have cash flow problems. If they go belly up because of their need for funds no one will get any Pandoras.

 

[htl2001]

If my pandora takes even 1 second longer because you have changed the rules midgame I think I will lose my shit.

What about if it arrives 1 second sooner because of this? That is the point after all. Or is the concern more "if one more person gets a Pandora before me than if the rules hadn't changed"?

 

[baruog]

@benji_stein: I agree with your in - depth analysis, but I think that you are missing an important point: A lot of people who actually pre - ordered a Pandora is willing to pay extra $$ to skip the queue (e.g. by cancelling pre - order and buying "7 dayer") - what does it mean? It means that if a customer who already paid agrees to pay more for the same product after *buying* the product, efectively the price is being adjusted after the sale has been made.


I am not saying that it is the only reason to introduce premium queue skipping, but it is something which *could* be taken into consideration while planning such a move.


PS. New user here saying hello.


[ordered on 07/02/2009, still waiting patiently ]


Edit: typos

 

[darkborn]

I think the big problem in interpretation of this premise is in limits and extremes.

This is the point. Thanks for examples/scenarios, you should make some spoiler alert or so next time.

The moral of the story? You need to cap how many $500 orders you take at a time (...) and then not sell more than the difference.

it is very easy:

if order# > date_production then SORRY_TEMPORARY_SOLD_OUT__COME_BACK_LATER

if count_orders == BIG_AMOUNT then HIRE_MORE_PPL & CALL_THEM_BACK

Obviously, I'm not a programmer but you got the point.

You build as many as you can, the first week, and ship those 200. You now have 300 in supply of "spares" for the 7-dayers. (...) Everyone wins again.

It is called cache, or ensurance. Many words, but thanks for your effort. Unfortunately, it is not always easy to make things looks easy.


However, how do you know Craigix didn't already plan this? He is ugly bastard, but smart one.

Yep, another long one.

Yep, in deed. I hope it won't stop production until Craigix read this.

 

[darkborn]

And now my 2 cents:


Money/Time = Pandora lives. So:


1) More money; 2) Speed things; 3) All happy.


Craigix, please, make some very rare Pandora version, silkscreening with your blood instead ink; sell it for 50K€.


It will help us all.


1 more:


Could you add @pandoraprivate "Project Support Item" with some nice OPT pic, rounded with text "2 more month ~ 2009-2011" for playing darts? I'll buy it for 20€.

 

[benji_stein]

Eh, nevermind, I noticed Craig suggests they'd come out of batch 2. I guess that's something for people in batch 2 to have an opinion on. If it doesn't affect the first batch, I have no comment.

How can they come out of batch 2, if they don't have enough parts for batch 1? Face facts. They're really coming out of batch 1, and you're getting pushed back.

I have have to jump on the boat with benji_stein though. You NEED to make sure these 7 day orders are %100 on time. I will cancel my order if this is not upheld. I will take it as a sign of fraud on the part of the company if this is not upheld to the letter.


If simple honesty is not upheld I no longer want to be part of this community.

That wasn't the take-home message, at all. It was "the 7-dayers need to get made on extra time, after the week's quota of preorders are done" and "don't oversell on how many you can produce", with the latter taking into account the former.

@benji_stein 's long post and @XxionxX... craigx said there would be a limit to how many 7 day'rs can be ordered at a time.

Could you show me where that is please? I read the entire thread, but it's possible I missed one. And my handy-dandy-pandy quote tracker is down, so I can't double check all his last statements.


He did say "if there are too many orders I will stop it for a while", but unless he says what "too many" is, I have trouble believing in his ability to not oversell. Or at least oversell in the sense from my analysis.

@benji_stein: I agree with your in - depth analysis, but I think that you are missing an important point: A lot of people who actually pre - ordered a Pandora is willing to pay extra $$ to skip the queue (e.g. by cancelling pre - order and buying "7 dayer") - what does it mean? It means that if a customer who already paid agrees to pay more for the same product after *buying* the product, efectively the price is being adjusted after the sale has been made.


I am not saying that it is the only reason to introduce premium queue skipping, but it is something which *could* be taken into consideration while planning such a move.

Welcome. I don't at all think that's missed in the point, and in fact makes it worse. The original deal with preorders - in fact most preorders where things trickle, instead of get released in a big drop - was first come, first served. I ordered before you, I should get mine before you. OPT said it many times - they were going to honor the order of the queue. Now you can skip it because you're willing to shell out more $$? At least new orders are bringing in a new person, and fresh profit, rather than someone who's no longer satisfied with the agreed terms.


Consider the extreme - the only people who sign up for 7-dayers are preorders. All it does is put some more money in OPT's pocket (admittedly, a good thing) and reshuffle the queue (I'd argue that's bad). No new Pandoras have been sold, and OPT isn't getting the product out their any more than before. That doesn't help the vision of bringing it to the masses, and trying to produce 3rd, 4th, and more batches.


@darkborn

This is the point. Thanks for examples/scenarios, you should make some spoiler alert or so next time.

I don't follow. What was being spoiled?

it is very easy:

snip

Obviously, I'm not a programmer but you got the point.

Sure. Never said it was. But everyone's going round about whether it's good or bad, and we don't even know *how* it will be implemented. I outlined several cases where it would be disastrous, which some were no doubt considering. There is one situation where it would work, but I want to hear it from Craig before I'll believe that's what's going to happen. He hasn't said anything yet about limiting orders.

It is called cache, or ensurance. Many words, but thanks for your effort. Unfortunately, it is not always easy to make things looks easy.


However, how do you know Craigix didn't already plan this? He is ugly bastard, but smart one.

I sure hope it's not ensurance.


I don't know whether Craigix planed this or not. He's famous for making statements, and blissfully failing to tell the little details. Causes overanalysis, anger, and frustration. but unless he's going to tell us, past experience has taught me not to put too much faith in Craig. He's very wily and tells you only half-truths. So sure. If he's willing to explain how he's going to *guarantee* that preorders don't *slow down* (more than they would have, if there are delays), as well as guarantee that all the 7-dayers ordered make it - the latter taking into account possibly delays, I'm happy to hear it.

 

[sporkbox]

I come from early batch 2 (1500-1600) so I haven't been waiting long, but I see this as a possibility to greatly improve the assembly process. My primary concern is supply and sacrificing quality for speed. If you guys can manage to kick CC in the ass and get them pumping more parts out while maintaining quality on top of this speed increase, everyone wins here (except the poor sap who pays $500 for one ).


I don't want to see this project fail, though I can't throw additional money at it. I do want to become an involved developer, however, and can't wait to finally experience it. You guys have my full support! I may even be launching a website dedicated to the Pandora.

 

[3jane]

As it's been explained we have these options:


Do it:


All preorders shipped sooner.


Continued existance of OPT.


Bigger community = more software.


Don't do it.


All preorders shipped at current rate (assuming funds don't run out completely).


No more pandoras.


Smaller community = dead platform


Seems fairly irrational to support scrapping the idea. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Eh, nevermind, I noticed Craig suggests they'd come out of batch 2. I guess that's something for people in batch 2 to have an opinion on. If it doesn't affect the first batch, I have no comment.

How can they come out of batch 2, if they don't have enough parts for batch 1? Face facts. They're really coming out of batch 1, and you're getting pushed back.

I have have to jump on the boat with benji_stein though. You NEED to make sure these 7 day orders are %100 on time. I will cancel my order if this is not upheld. I will take it as a sign of fraud on the part of the company if this is not upheld to the letter.


If simple honesty is not upheld I no longer want to be part of this community.

That wasn't the take-home message, at all. It was "the 7-dayers need to get made on extra time, after the week's quota of preorders are done" and "don't oversell on how many you can produce", with the latter taking into account the former.

@benji_stein 's long post and @XxionxX... craigx said there would be a limit to how many 7 day'rs can be ordered at a time.

Could you show me where that is please? I read the entire thread, but it's possible I missed one. And my handy-dandy-pandy quote tracker is down, so I can't double check all his last statements.


He did say "if there are too many orders I will stop it for a while", but unless he says what "too many" is, I have trouble believing in his ability to not oversell. Or at least oversell in the sense from my analysis.

@benji_stein: I agree with your in - depth analysis, but I think that you are missing an important point: A lot of people who actually pre - ordered a Pandora is willing to pay extra $$ to skip the queue (e.g. by cancelling pre - order and buying "7 dayer") - what does it mean? It means that if a customer who already paid agrees to pay more for the same product after *buying* the product, efectively the price is being adjusted after the sale has been made.


I am not saying that it is the only reason to introduce premium queue skipping, but it is something which *could* be taken into consideration while planning such a move.

Welcome. I don't at all think that's missed in the point, and in fact makes it worse. The original deal with preorders - in fact most preorders where things trickle, instead of get released in a big drop - was first come, first served. I ordered before you, I should get mine before you. OPT said it many times - they were going to honor the order of the queue. Now you can skip it because you're willing to shell out more $$? At least new orders are bringing in a new person, and fresh profit, rather than someone who's no longer satisfied with the agreed terms.


Consider the extreme - the only people who sign up for 7-dayers are preorders. All it does is put some more money in OPT's pocket (admittedly, a good thing) and reshuffle the queue (I'd argue that's bad). No new Pandoras have been sold, and OPT isn't getting the product out their any more than before. That doesn't help the vision of bringing it to the masses, and trying to produce 3rd, 4th, and more batches.


@darkborn

This is the point. Thanks for examples/scenarios, you should make some spoiler alert or so next time.

I don't follow. What was being spoiled?

it is very easy:

snip

Obviously, I'm not a programmer but you got the point.

Sure. Never said it was. But everyone's going round about whether it's good or bad, and we don't even know *how* it will be implemented. I outlined several cases where it would be disastrous, which some were no doubt considering. There is one situation where it would work, but I want to hear it from Craig before I'll believe that's what's going to happen. He hasn't said anything yet about limiting orders.

It is called cache, or ensurance. Many words, but thanks for your effort. Unfortunately, it is not always easy to make things looks easy.


However, how do you know Craigix didn't already plan this? He is ugly bastard, but smart one.

I sure hope it's not ensurance.


I don't know whether Craigix planed this or not. He's famous for making statements, and blissfully failing to tell the little details. Causes overanalysis, anger, and frustration. but unless he's going to tell us, past experience has taught me not to put too much faith in Craig. He's very wily and tells you only half-truths. So sure. If he's willing to explain how he's going to *guarantee* that preorders don't *slow down* (more than they would have, if there are delays), as well as guarantee that all the 7-dayers ordered make it - the latter taking into account possibly delays, I'm happy to hear it.

The facts are simple.Openpandora need money.If they disappear =no pandoras.To say craig is lying is silly.If this is what they have to do to survive then so be it.Obviously all the openpandora team agreed to this,not just craig.