How to calculate a price for the Pyra

[EvilDragon]

Distributors have a lot of costs on their own.

Marketing, shipment costs for possibly broken units and if they units don't sell well, they might have to sell it for a lower price

However, they also do some huge marketing. Having it on ThinkGeek gives a lot of publicity, which will also do good for our own sales.

And people prefer to buy stuff within their own country (warranty, cheaper shipping costs, etc.)

To gain the same publicity, we'd have to use a lot more money for marketing.

So it's more of a win-win situation.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Many thanks for an interesting & illuminating post ED

And if we can create the module-based version (with CPU module), we can release updated models (or only CPU modules for existing customers) without having huge costs as well.

This sounds like a great idea, it would be awesome to see this happen.

 

[WizardStan]

I gotta ask about the module, is that just planned to be for the CPU or will it have the RAM/Flash on it as well? Some people worried about the replaceability of the internal memory might be swayed if there's an upgrade path; like, 2 years from now you get some really really fast eMMC parts, people can send in their old module and swap it for a new one (for a modest fee, of course) and then you plunk the old module into a Pyra to sell at 15% discount to someone who needed a bit off.

Or something like that, work out the details later. Yeah, replacing the eMMC would require replacing the CPU and RAM as well (so maybe $100 replacement instead of $50 full) but it's better than having to replace the whole thing, and it's a step towards the more extreme modularity some people are asking for.

 

[fusion_power]

What is surprising to me is that they're planning to do the 2-layer base board + 8-layer CPU module pcb trick also in the actual units. I thought this was just something to make the prototyping cheaper.

gta04 said this was a big consideration so it shouldn't be that surprising.. Anyway, if they're doing it for prototyping wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run too, and more practical? It defeats some of the purpose of prototyping if your final PCBs are totally different from your prototyped ones.


When I last brought it up a few months ago ED did totally shoot it down, I'm just glad to see I'm not the only one who thought it made sense ;p

Hm, I wonder if the CPU module board would fit into the lid so it does not need space in the base of the Unit. I can't imagine that there would be a place between 2layer board and battery where a CPU daughter board sits.

 

[slaeshjag]

Then you'll need a cable like the current LCD-cable to get all the signals down.

SD-interfaces, USB, HDMI... Those are all high-speed buses that all need to get down to the base.

 

[WizardStan]

And instead of your screen going a little purple if there's a problem, it corrupts your SD cards and summons a demon.

 

[Granitehead]

@WizardStan: I can't really imagine a CPU daughter-board simplifying the main board unless RAM is on that board too.

And I also think if we have any soldered permanent storage that should probably be on there too.

I think some important questions about the 3G module have already been asked, like how to upgrade. Wouldn't this (xG module including antenna) ideally be on a daughter board too?

 

[rohezal]

ED will the pyra price at Dragonbox.de will be the same as for getdigital.com? Or will the "factory buy" from your side be cheaper?

 

[EvilDragon]

Preorder price will be as good as possible, later prices should be the same worldwide - but they depend on sales. More sales will bring the price down.

What is surprising to me is that they're planning to do the 2-layer base board + 8-layer CPU module pcb trick also in the actual units. I thought this was just something to make the prototyping cheaper.

gta04 said this was a big consideration so it shouldn't be that surprising.. Anyway, if they're doing it for prototyping wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run too, and more practical? It defeats some of the purpose of prototyping if your final PCBs are totally different from your prototyped ones.

When I last brought it up a few months ago ED did totally shoot it down, I'm just glad to see I'm not the only one who thought it made sense ;p

Hm, I wonder if the CPU module board would fit into the lid so it does not need space in the base of the Unit. I can't imagine that there would be a place between 2layer board and battery where a CPU daughter board sits.

Besides the issues with the signal lines going down, you would fry your LCD with the heat from the SoC... So, no, won't happen.

 

[Biont]

Preorder price will be as good as possible, later prices should be the same worldwide

....But you'd make more money if people bought from your store, right?

 

[fusion_power]

Then you'll need a cable like the current LCD-cable to get all the signals down.

SD-interfaces, USB, HDMI... Those are all high-speed buses that all need to get down to the base.

Of course. A cable seems to work fine, look at the current prototype array between Dummy Board and OMAP Dev Board.

Besides the issues with the signal lines going down, you would fry your LCD with the heat from the SoC... So, no, won't happen.

ARMs produce noticable heat? Well, then it would be also not a good idea to place it near the battery then, right?

 

[grydholt]

I do wonder, since you said you'd match the distributor price at your shop, does this mean you will make distributors sign an agreement that they will only sell at your approved prices? If not, does that mean someone can get a distributor agreement and buy a hundred units from you then sell them on eBay for 449 EUR instead of 499? There'd be some people who would buy this units instead of the distributor ones, but they'd also sell out pretty quickly.

Wouldn't such a signed agreement be price fixing which is illegal in the countries where the most Pyras would be sold? 

 

[Granitehead]

ARMs produce noticable heat?

Obviously they do. Now maybe that's why you didn't seem to understand the x86 vs. ARM discussion.The OMAP5 is 4W at maximum I think. That's quite a lot of heat. Without a heat sink the chip would just melt/degrade.

 

[Binky]

Depends if we want to run it at 4W continuously.

High peak (fractions of a second) power doesn't do any harm.

 

[Granitehead]

Depends if we want to run it at 4W continuously.

High peak (fractions of a second) power doesn't do any harm.

Either the CPU needs some auto-throttle mechanism or it needs to be able to cope with 4W. And I think nobody would like it if it was only possible to run an emulator for x seconds before the CPU overheats and the game starts to stutter.

 

[Exophase]

Wouldn't such a signed agreement be price fixing which is illegal in the countries where the most Pyras would be sold?

I don't know this very well, but from the description here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

What I'm describing sounds more like vertical price fixing, which appears to have some legality in the US but only limited legality in the UK, and I have no idea about the EU, except that here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing_cases#EU_Convictions the only cases listed are of the horizontal variety.

Interesting article on the matter: http://gbr.pepperdine.edu/2010/08/price-fixing-and-minimum-resale-price-restrictions-are-two-different-animals/ Notably, several international electronics companies have employed minimum price restrictions without being brought to court for it.

 

[fusion_power]

ARMs produce noticable heat?

Obviously they do. Now maybe that's why you didn't seem to understand the x86 vs. ARM discussion.The OMAP5 is 4W at maximum I think. That's quite a lot of heat. Without a heat sink the chip would just melt/degrade.

I mainly thought about the Pandora SoC which also is an ARM and does not even need a heatsink. Again no reason to get personal, you really should try to get rid of this attitude soon.

 

[Granitehead]

ARMs produce noticable heat?

Obviously they do. Now maybe that's why you didn't seem to understand the x86 vs. ARM discussion.The OMAP5 is 4W at maximum I think. That's quite a lot of heat. Without a heat sink the chip would just melt/degrade.

I mainly thought about the Pandora SoC which also is an ARM and does not even need a heatsink. Again no reason to get personal, you really should try to get rid of this attitude soon.

Wasn't supposed to attack you, but let that topic die, I shouldn't have brought it up.
The Pandora does become so hot you easily feel it through the plastics. Not usually, but when you let something cpu intensive run for a while and maybe put it on a mattress or something which keeps the heat, it's bottom gets to a felt 50°C. And it takes much less than 4W, though I don't know the exact value.

 

[fusion_power]

I have a classic CC Pandora so it usualy clocks ~600MHz, it may be the reason why it doesn't get hot, only warm (on top) but not warmer than the battery during charging. I can imagine an 1GHz Pandora will get alot warmer (I have none) and of course an multicore 1.5GHz OMAP5 may need an heat sink then.

So or so, it will be interesting to see how this will fit into the Pyra, including an daughter board maybe.

 

[Binky]

There is a very weak correlation between electrical (=thermal) power in a SOC and its processing power.

an OMAP5 will be have a much lower joules-per-operation than the OMAP3