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Money makes the world go round.

Discussion in 'Pyra News' started by EvilDragon, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    As promised, here is another post.
    Not a newspost though, as all news have been told yesterday already.

    But as we're nearly finished, I thought it might be a nice idea to take a look back at the costs that the Pyra development produced.
    I guess you won't find anything like that from a different company - but we're different, and part of the reason the Pyra is going to be born at all is because you all support openness and transparency, even if the Pyra costs more than similar products.

    Great, let's start now on the costs overview, shall we?

    1. Development of the PCBs

    The PCBs are definitely the most complex and therefore most expensive parts of the development.

    Designing the PCBs has cost 75,095.89 EUR so far.
    Most of that were wages for the design, but also ordering sample parts and producing sample PCBs for various testings are included here.

    Not included are the costs for the produced prototypes (which is another whopping 52,639.32 EUR).

    Total so far: 127,735.21 EUR.


    2. Development of the Cases

    The costs for the cases take the second place: 61,920.00 EUR

    Those are the costs for the design, molds and samples we received.
    That's actually quite cheap (I've checked with some companies in Germany and their offers were about 180,000.00 EUR and higher).

    The downside of course is that things weren't going as smooth as I had wished and it took quite a long time.
    But well, the price difference was worth it... we could've never afforded it for 180,000.00 EUR!

    Still, once the Pyra sells well, I want to work on improving the case. Making it thinner. And of course I'll sell in the shop as well, so everyone can upgrade if he/she wants to.


    Total so far: 189,655.21 EUR



    3. Development of the keyboard


    Third place goes to the development costs for the keymat (design, molds, changes, samples): 19,220.00 EUR

    Half of that is the mold (10,000.00 EUR), about 4,000.00 EUR were changes.

    Total so far: 208,875.21 EUR



    4. Development of the LCDs

    Next up: Development costs for the LCDs: 9,371.25 EUR

    Development costs? Weren't those existing LCDs?
    Well, yes. Except for that they had no touchscreen.

    So custom touchscreens had to me made. We needed to test various ones and they needed their own tools to fit perfectly on the LCD.
    And of course we also needed samples of the LCDs :)


    Total: 218,246.46 EUR


    Yep, those are the final costs so far... with 1000 preorders, 218.25 EUR of each unit are just being used to cover the DEVELOPMENT costs.
    If we had 10,000 preorders, the development costs per unit would break down to 21.83 EUR.

    I hope this shows the reasons some things move slow. Sure, we could've increased the development speed by creating multiple molds in parallel for tests or pay express costs - but development costs are already pretty high.
    Increasing it just to get it done faster sadly isn't really possible (unless you find someone who would like to donate 100.000 EUR or higher :D :D)



    5. Other tidbits

    Well, those were the main development costs.
    What's not included are samples of other LCDs or parts we tested but didn't use in the end. Shipping costs needed to ship things around.

    No wage for me is included, as I don't really get anything.
    For those who want to know: I'm getting paid by my company (OpenPandora GmbH) which basically consists of the shop and some development and productions (Retrode, Pyra, etc.).
    My wage is the allowed minimum for my position (CEO), which is 800 EUR per month (though thanks to taxes, I only get 642 EUR per month paid out).

    Based on the average time I work on the Pyra and the shop, my wage would be about 2,40 EUR per hour... and I also have to pay insurances, social system fees, etc.
    It's pretty clear that I can't live from that, that's why I also have my other main job (TV productions).

    That hopefully also explains why I can't work 24/7 on the Pyra and sometimes I am late with news or some tests I need to do.
    But right now, I want to keep as much of the profit of the shop ready for the Pyra :)

    Feel free to ask any further questions, in case you have some :)
     
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  2. Bosbeetle

    Bosbeetle Terminally lost

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    This is why I love the Pandora and the pyra projects. Its not just the great products but also a business philosophy.
     
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  3. Swordfish II

    Swordfish II Very Active Member

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    Just one clarification: the development cost taken out of each unit sold is not quite accurate as the prototype preorders are covering more of the development costs
     
  4. Kippykip

    Kippykip BFG 9000

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    that's a lot of money spent, how much profit do you estimate that the pyra will make after all that?
     
  5. codifies

    codifies Very Active Member

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    owch, ED why are you not bald, and a gibbering wreck, not to mention the stress of running a internet shop company and being rewarded like its a hobby! its just a good job you are a retro fan, I can't think how a project like this would ever happen otherwise...
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---
    £184,998.21 doesn't sound any better in £'s that's more than 4070 average shopping baskets !
     
  6. Pyramancer

    Pyramancer Member

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    I have two questions out of curiosity:

    1) If I understand correctly, some of the parts (batteries?, LCDs?) have already been purchased for a production run of 600 (?) or 1200 (?) units. If so, I assume that those are not included in the development costs above?

    2) What is the estimated cost for the first mass production run (and for how many units is that estimate)?

    In my mind I want to add together the development costs (multiplied by a factor of between 1.25 and 2.0 as we seem to be somewhere between 50% and 80% done development) and the estimated production costs for the first mass production run, and divide the sum by the number of units in the first mass production run (less the planned margin for defective units), and see if there's any hope of there being a sensible profit at the existing announced price of a unit.

    Of course, there's nothing to say that the development costs need to be recovered in the first mass production run, but it would certainly seem desirable.
     
  7. codifies

    codifies Very Active Member

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    or the pocket money of 19,473 UK 15 year olds ....!
     
  8. Eddward

    Eddward Still Fresh

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    I don't post here much and I'm not at all upset about the time it's taken/taking. I do hope you build something into the price of these to cover more of your time or something to be a 'bonus'. I appreciate the work and that there will be a good portable device I can use without swallowing my principles. I don't want it to be done just out of charity.
     
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  9. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    Errrm... they aren't. 8 Prototypes have been sold for 1,400.00 EUR each. That's 11,200.00 EUR.
    So yes, that lowers the total to 207.046,46 EUR (207 EUR per unit).
    Then again, these are not the final costs, as not everything is finished yet.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---
    Correct, these are not included as these are not development costs.
    We've got 3000 batteries and 800 LCDs so far (but will stock those up to 1500 within the next few weeks) as well as 10,200 nubs :)

    I don't know the accurate price yet, as I don't have the final price for the keymats or case yet.
    It should be roughly 450 EUR for a mobile unit and 360 EUR for the normal unit.
    So combined with the 207 EUR per unit development costs, it's about 657 EUR (4G unit) and 567 EUR (normal unit)

    With a sales price of 529 EUR (normal) or 626 EUR (4G), it doesn't fully add up yet.
    Then of course you have a failure rate, so the first 1000 units won't be enough to get everything back, but it's a start.

    I had hoped to keep the development costs around 180,000 EUR, but that didn't work. That's also the reason it's good that my shop does some nice profit now :)

    Definititely no profit, the first 1000 units are a loss. But that's normal development costs are ALWAYS based on assumptions how many you sell.

    And I plan to sell at least 5000 of them. What you also need to think about is price lowering. Overtime, you need to be able to lower the price in order to keep selling them.

    But I think once it's out there in the wild, we should be able to achieve that :)
     
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  10. AVahne

    AVahne Handheld-obsessed

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    Those 10200 nubs are the amazing clicking type right?
     
  11. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    Um... yes. The normal ones we use ;)
     
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  12. elvissteinjr

    elvissteinjr Very Active Member

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    So those 10200 nubs are the one with the longer travel distance, right? As far as I remember they were discontinued by the manufacturer and later Pyras will have nubs with only about half the travel distance. Is that still true?
     
  13. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes and no. Yes: These are the ones with the longer travel distance and yes, they are discontinued.
    But we don't know yet if later Pyras will half half the travel distance (the smaller are not half, btw. I think it was 1,5 and 2mm travel distance).
    We might build our own ones. It's just a mechanical disc with a magnet, basically.
     
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  14. second exodous

    second exodous Well-Known Member

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    It is amazing how quickly the Pyra is moving along. It has to be faster than the Pandora. I guess there were a lot of valuable lessons learned on the Pandora.
     
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  15. Pyramancer

    Pyramancer Member

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    I expect you will. After all, more than a 1000 of us have essentially bought one while the Pyra is still a dream. I imagine that considerably more than 80% of potential owners are more pragmatic and don't buy things that aren't ready to ship.

    If somehow word could be disseminated to everyone for whom the Pyra is a good solution, sales would be higher still. I only found out about it accidentally (in January) while reading an ancient blog post that mentioned the Pandora as a good machine for running Emacs on the road and, determined to buy one, I wound up here. And discovered I was eight years late to the party and that the Pandora was no longer to be had! Probably best if prospective Pyra buyers hear about it before 2025! (Sorry, I don't have any suggestions at the moment for how to get the word out to the relevant people.)
     
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  16. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    So, the prototype preorders were high cost individually, but there are so relatively few of them that they don't make a huge difference in the big development costs. I figure they may have helped deffer a significant chunk of the very first run of populated boards OR allowed for the pre-ordering of all of the nubs OR developing the screens OR ... There are lots of things on this project that 11K EUR would about fit/cover - but it would have only covered ONE of them. Still, though, every preorder is important as this project would be very unlikely to exist without them.
     
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  17. Binky

    Binky Death's Steed Staff Member

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    I suspect the best publicity is direct user-to-user.

    Most people who are likely to buy a Pyra have contact, either socially or professionally, with other people who might be interested in a pocket device that runs a real OS.
    Letting potential customers see real units in the wild is also a good way to ensure that every sale is properly informed.

    The worst kind of customer is one who buys the product, then gets upset because it doesn't meet their requirements.
     
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  18. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

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    I must admit, these news posts often make me think how much was done with the Pandora before the ball was dropped and ED picked it up again and moved production to Germany. Things like the game buttons fitting, although there is helps that the game buttons are free-floating on top of the keymat and made of the same material as the case, so shrinkage and so on was probably easier to calculate. Apart from the main board which I think was all MWeston's work, and the dpad which was DaveC's concern IIRC, I'm not sure who to credit for the rest of the work, but I'm increasingly impressed with how far they managed to get without telling anyone (not to mention a certain resident of Tyne and Wear getting arsey whenever anybody asked).
     
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  19. vcoleiro1

    vcoleiro1 Hardcore Member

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    @ED

    Do you still need to sell 3000 Pyras to pay off investors. Or is that number higher/lower?
     
  20. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    Depends on future sales prices of the Pyra :)
     

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