How to calculate a price for the Pyra

[rohezal]

ED could sell sd cards with Pandora and Pyra optimized games. which are nt complete in the repo. Lets say you want an SD with Jedikinght 2, Jedi Academy and Jagged Alliance 2 and you can select on his shop the games you want on the sd card. He basicly just need buy some copies from gog when they are on 1$ sale, a script where he can click on "make an sd with this games, create appdate folders, copy this stuff over, and keep an eye on the number of licenses".

You could get a sd card or a zip file with the content of the appdata folder you for download. So he could become a game reseller. And since people are lazy (buy the game without being on sale, download it, use wine or windows to install on a pc, copy the stuff to your pandora sd ((which is ext3), read the manual what you have missed to copy...), I think a lot of people would buy it, especially if its part of the repo witha counter (only 10 jedi kinght 2 game licenses left).

 

[WizardStan]

He basicly just need buy some copies from gog when they are on 1$ sale

The GoG terms of agreement says that you can't resell or repackage the games.

 

[ExquisiteCorpse]

No adware, nagware, begware, crippleware or spyware, no $0.99 fart "apps", no in-game-purchase nonsense, no free-to-play pay-to-win crap, no DRM, no subscription fees, no dev fees. That is the difference between a niche project with a community spirit, and the mainstream market paradigm. We contribute for fun and community respect, not for profit.

ED can get some auxiliary revenue from selling hardware accessories (SD cards, suitable USB gadgets etc), like he already does to some extent. I'm glad to support his shop by buying such things from him instead of from the cheapest source. But the price of the Pyra should still be calculated such that if ED would only sell the Pyra, his shop would survive.

Amen to that.

IF we liked ads I'm sure most of us wouldn't have ad block edge, https everywhere, disconnect me and noscript installed.

Just go buy the cheapest android tablet from an obscure chinese manufacturer and enjoy your ad-ridden, malware and NSA spying device.

The joy of not being sold anything can't be understated enough.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

For what it is worth, if a cut from paid applications went to ED I would be cool with that in principle, the only problem is paid applications don't make very much money as it is, so further diluting might have a negative effect (in previous forums polls the majority have voted to say they want more commercial developers targeting the Pandora, I don't know if this is still the case, but if it is then diluting the current amount of money made by paid applications would be a bad idea). To give some idea, KAMI RETRO sold 100 copies in the last two years, so 'made' a total of 200.00 GBP, which is less then one days pay for a high tier developer, and certainly less than it cost (in man hours) to port and support. We have no regrets and hope to release more software on the Pandora and Pyra, but I thought it might be worth while giving the community some idea of numbers, to see how feasible (or really unfeasible) it would be to hope for ED to make money from app sales (if the Pyra is anything like Pandora).

 

[Natsu]

No adware, nagware, begware, crippleware or spyware, no $0.99 fart "apps", no in-game-purchase nonsense, no free-to-play pay-to-win crap, no DRM, no subscription fees, no dev fees. That is the difference between a niche project with a community spirit, and the mainstream market paradigm. We contribute for fun and community respect, not for profit.

Because the Repo has all of that? I'm sure ED can software quality control and limited it to, adware, in-game-purchase, free-to-play pay-to-win games and quality apps. DRM and subscription fees is determined by game creater. Everything else you can install yourself. It doesn't keep you from contributing for fun and you don't have to buy stuff. It just an alternative.

The things aren't bad themselves. It depends on how it's done.

Having worked on some commercial games myself, I think there is a place for commercial games in this world.


They dont require an appstore though. A commercial indie developer could release a closed-source demo to the PND repository, along with a link to download the full game from their website with a paypal/CC payment.


A handful of developers might just decide to do it because they think the Pyra is a damn cool platform. Probably wont be a serious financial incentive with so few units.

An actual App store would give better awareness because of ease and convenience for the user and will bring in more developers.

ED could sell sd cards with Pandora and Pyra optimized games.

Or just have a Market, so he wouldn't be needlessly stock up on sd cards and have quick


interactions.

The joy of not being sold anything can't be understated enough.

You mean like the Pyra itself? :mellow:

 

[moxie]

You are still not making sense. How would you expect this app store of yours to work? Differently from the repo that already is, that is?

 

[Natsu]

You are still not making sense. How would you expect this app store of yours to work? Differently from the repo that already is, that is?

Pretty much like that. Are there any fart "apps" and spyware in the Repo?
The App store with a good interface on the system for easier user access and more commercial targeted apps/games optimized for the Pandora/Pyra specifically, seem like a good alternative.

Like I said, adware, in-game-purchase and free-to-play pay-to-win games aren't bad in themselves and you

don't have to buy them.

Of course ED get a cut from the Market.

Btw I'm not saying do this. I'm saying it isn't a bad idea as some are trying to make it.

 

[WizardStan]

Nope, I need to chime in: you're still not making sense.

We have the repo, it is everything you describe. In this hypothetical situation ED creates a new "marketplace" where he takes a cut of all sales.

What is he doing differently from the repo which guarantees that people will use it and not the totally free repo that already exists?

I'm saying it isn't a bad idea as some are trying to make it.

You're arguing against things people aren't saying. Well, they are saying those things but only in the generalization. In this specific instance it isn't the fact that $0.99 fart apps and ad supported things exist at all, they are arguing that the only way they could exist on the Pyra is if EvilDragon introduces some kind of locked down marketplace the way Google and Apple have done. Such a lock down not only defeats the purpose of an open handheld like the Pandora/Pyra, but it is also trivial to negate and start up your own marketplace, eg the existing repo.Ad driven, $0.99 fart apps, all these things may or may not be bad on their own, but they are the antithesis to the Pandora/Pyra, they simply cannot exist.

 

[Exophase]

The peanuts ED would make from a repo are just not worth the sacrifice of scraping it away from the few who'd bother to sell anything there.

Right now the repo does give you the option to have a support button for the Pandora pre-order fund. Maybe it'd be reasonable to include a slight variation of this where users are given the an option to donate an X% on top of the cost of the software to ED.

You're arguing against things people aren't saying. Well, they are saying those things but only in the generalization. In this specific instance it isn't the fact that $0.99 fart apps and ad supported things exist at all, they are arguing that the only way they could exist on the Pyra is if EvilDragon introduces some kind of locked down marketplace the way Google and Apple have done. Such a lock down not only defeats the purpose of an open handheld like the Pandora/Pyra, but it is also trivial to negate and start up your own marketplace, eg the existing repo.

Ad driven, $0.99 fart apps, all these things may or may not be bad on their own, but they are the antithesis to the Pandora/Pyra, they simply cannot exist.

Having commercial fart apps, in-app purchases, or malware on the repo has nothing whatsoever to do with having a locked down marketplace. It's hypocritical to start arguing about having a repo that's open and free then start arguing about all the stuff you don't approve of being on it. The reason why they won't be on Pyra isn't because it's against the spirit of the device but because the market is too small to attract such things.

 

[klapse]

Natsu, you are full of wrong ideas, over and over again.

Quote Natsu "I'm sure ED can software quality control and limited it to, adware, in-game-purchase, free-to-play pay-to-win games and quality apps. ."

 

[WizardStan]

It's hypocritical to start arguing about having a repo that's open and free then start arguing about all the stuff you don't approve of being on it. The reason why they won't be on Pyra isn't because it's against the spirit of the device but because the market is too small to attract such things.

I think I mispoke. Sorry.I'm not against them as being against the spirit of the device, people are totally free to put whatever crap they want on the repo and we're just as free to not buy or download it. I'm saying the only way these apps can exist in a way that ED would make any money off them is if the market were locked down with no "supported" way of getting other apps, and it's that lock down which is against the spirit of the device. He'd also have to encourage these developers (who somehow have no choice but to distribute through his market) into charging money for their apps: following Apple and Google this would mean charging a small fee for them to upload their apps to the server. At that point everyone would just migrate to the totally free repo, including the 99 cent fart apps and in game purchases because there isn't actually any way to prevent it.

 

[Birdog]

I like the appstore idea.  Ubuntu has a software center where almost everything is free but there are apps you can purchase and i would assume some goes to ubuntu.  You could also have a default app stor and a plus appstore where there are purchases available?  On my android i have the google app store and F-droid and always look for what i want in F-droid first.  I think if you did have a optional store though it should be policed by the comunity so if it get enough bad feedback or whatever that the app is susspended because i too hate "adware, nagware, begware, crippleware or spyware, in-game purchases, free-to-play pay-to-win, DRM, subscription fees" and feel it should be an outright purchase or freeware.   I would love for developers and hardware designers to get some of my money, anyone who wants to earn my money is free to have it.

I understand the value of vendors and they need to make money as they spend hard earned money on a chance that it will sell.  But would it be possible to do a one time give you my money now good faith no vendor discount? I know this could spark some debate and sorry if it does as i have read they other carrier left people hanging but i just wanted to ask.  Again sorry if this is a sore subject.

 

[Exophase]

I think I mispoke. Sorry.

I'm not against them as being against the spirit of the device, people are totally free to put whatever crap they want on the repo and we're just as free to not buy or download it. I'm saying the only way these apps can exist in a way that ED would make any money off them is if the market were locked down with no "supported" way of getting other apps, and it's that lock down which is against the spirit of the device. He'd also have to encourage these developers (who somehow have no choice but to distribute through his market) into charging money for their apps: following Apple and Google this would mean charging a small fee for them to upload their apps to the server. At that point everyone would just migrate to the totally free repo, including the 99 cent fart apps and in game purchases because there isn't actually any way to prevent it.

I'm not following you. In what way would skimming some of the purchase money through the repo necessitate locking down the store? How does this prevent other apps? How would this force the apps to only be sold on the market?

Google Play doesn't prevent apps from being distributed elsewhere, it doesn't require any kind of DRM, and they don't actually do anything to encourage developers to charge for their apps. There's no evidence that the $25 fee is there for that reason; nobody is charging for apps just to justify paying that fee, even if that's what they tell themselves. People keep their commercial apps on Google Play instead of leaving them to stores that take a smaller cut (if any even exist) because Google Play is extremely visible and offers a lot of services, not because they're not allowed. In Pyra's case ED would have a harder time making the repo that appealing, but it'd still ostensibly remain the most visible and well maintained, at least by virtue of most of the software being free. Maybe people would still sell there in spite of not getting huge visibility or services because they're okay with supporting the device, but I agree with Steven that there's a bigger risk that they it'll discourage them from bothering with porting software at all. Then again, I don't think the cut would make or break the determination on whether or not the effort is worth it..

 

[WizardStan]

In what way would skimming some of the purchase money through the repo necessitate locking down the store?

Size and openness, and a little bit of the audience: the market is small and savvy enough that developers can probably be a little picky, and the nature of the device means they can make that choice. I could be completely wrong here, but it just seems to me that with absolutely nothing preventing it developers will use the existing repo (or anything else) to distribute their apps vs the one that takes a cut. It's not like it isn't virtually transparent to the end user: adding a new source to PNDManager is just adding a URL to a config file, provided that repo follows the same standard.If you disagree that's cool, I just don't see how it's possible.

 

[ExquisiteCorpse]

I think the point is the average pandora owner is either a techie or a programmer.

Bypassing crapware is pretty much something this demographic does daily.

I run cyanogenmod (android fork) and the F Droid app store (completely Opensource app store) on my phone.This is the wrong demographic for crapware.

 

[Grench]

I have to say that I really like the idea of having all of the peripherals on one board and then the SoC and it's functions on a daughter board.

Something to consider though for 'future SoC' and system compatibility is the number of leads available for the SD slots. Whatever the 'future SoC' is 2-3 years from now, it would likely support UHS-II which requires more leads than the current SD specs do.

The additional UHS-II contacts are shown here: https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/bus_speed/

Just a random thought.

 

[mclien]

It's much cheaper first to print some cheap and fast prototypes before wasting money for the real Metal Molds that may have to be altered then like it was done with the Pandora molds so many times. Today, you just print your design and you can instantly check if it works in real.

Not entirely true. For the geometry, yes. But there are lots of other issues involved with injectionmolds. The flow of the material into the mold, diffrent strength depending on the "way" the mold is filled, temperature inside the mold on much more, which we all don't know about.

Therefor it's absolutly correct choosing the way ED just did. And btw. I would bet large amonts of money the first prototypes are printet anyway. That's waht those companies did years before the 3D printers hit the low end price/community develeopment.

First time I read about the first 3D "print" (from liquid phase) was about 25 years ago.

EDIT:

@ED: As far as I know even the molds for resin injection have a limited life time, as they wear of. Do you have any information how many parts you will get from one mold (I think to remember sometin between 10,000 an 100,000 pieces per mold. Just mention that because it doesn't apear in your post.

 

[ssokolow]

Buying your daily stuff in the Supermarkets must be a real pain for you then. 

In germany basicly everything price releated ends with .99 and I really wished they would drop this for .95 at least so we could get rid of 1 and 2 cent coins like some EU countries already did. But I guess it's not possible to get the .99 out of the heads of an entire nation. ^^"

512€ sounds at least geeky enough to get the right attention. The next best bit-value would be 256 but of course this price will not happen. Still better than 640 of course.

Canada is phasing out the 1¢ coin, so it's not impossible... it just takes political will.

 

[ssokolow]

Distributors have a lot of costs on their own.

Marketing, shipment costs for possibly broken units and if they units don't sell well, they might have to sell it for a lower price

However, they also do some huge marketing. Having it on ThinkGeek gives a lot of publicity, which will also do good for our own sales.

And people prefer to buy stuff within their own country (warranty, cheaper shipping costs, etc.)

To gain the same publicity, we'd have to use a lot more money for marketing.

So it's more of a win-win situation.

As long as I don't have to buy via ThinkGeek, I'm all for more options for people buying it.

ThinkGeek only ships to Canada via private couriers like DHL and UPS and they like to charge roughly 30% for "sales tax and customs brokerage" to Canadian customers, even if the seller has no business presence in Canada.


When I bought my Pandora via Ithic, I had to pay nearly $100 extra because I bought it before the U.S. Postal Service rewrote their rules to allow shipping lithium batteries... and magazines putting accelerometers in shipping boxes have shown that the USPS is actually gentler with your packages than private couriers.

 

[Neelix]

Buying your daily stuff in the Supermarkets must be a real pain for you then. 

In germany basicly everything price releated ends with .99 and I really wished they would drop this for .95 at least so we could get rid of 1 and 2 cent coins like some EU countries already did. But I guess it's not possible to get the .99 out of the heads of an entire nation. ^^"

512€ sounds at least geeky enough to get the right attention. The next best bit-value would be 256 but of course this price will not happen. Still better than 640 of course.

Canada is phasing out the 1¢ coin, so it's not impossible... it just takes political will.

Australia phased out 1¢ and 2¢ coins years ago, and we still have products priced at the x.99¢ mark even now.  With electronic payment it makes no difference.  For cash payment the total of the bill gets rounded down to the nearest 5¢. 

- Neelix