How to calculate a price for the Pyra
- Thread starter EvilDragon
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i second that. wish i new how much i need to hae day 1 to buy it though
Just checked: My local train/bus traveller card actually covers an area that is one third of the entire country of Belgium. We do have about a third of the population in that area, though, and that's even though this is one of the most populated areas of Sweden.
Sweden is a largely empty country.
rohezal
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Would it possible to make a special preorder price? Like the chip did with their kickstarter? So the first 1000 units can be preordered for 400€ all after them for 500€. It would probably make sure that you have lots of predorders. And the resellers can be relaxed since it were only a limited amount of preorders, no real competiton for their sales.
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I think it's a good thing to have resellers (especially in North America and Japan, i.e. Link and Ekianjo) if only to make shipping more efficient. I don't know about ThinkGeek but perhaps having some higher-profile resellers is not a bad thing, though it would be mostly to reach new people (at the cost of lower profit for ED). The existing community should buy directly from ED, Link or Ekianjo, to maximize the profit for ED -- not just because we love ED, mostly just to improve our chances for Pyra successors in the future 
On top of that though, couldn't we try to "crowdsource" a distribution network with community members, in the way I described above? It would have to be trust-based, with none of the burden of the trust on ED/Link/Ekianjo. Just a small community tweak to make shipping a bit cheaper. If persons A, B, C and D all live in city X, and they all want to buy a Pyra, then A, B and C set their delivery address at the same address as D and they arrange a pick-up with D. In terms of trust: A,B,C have to trust D, but there's no extra risk for ED/Link/Ekianjo. It's mostly a synchronization problem: the four orders for A, B, C and D need to happen at the same time, so ED can bundle the shipment as one package. I don't know what his shipment costs are, but usually the cost per weight/volume is very sublinear, so shipping 4 units to one address could very well be only half the price of shipping 4 units to 4 different addresses.
On top of that though, couldn't we try to "crowdsource" a distribution network with community members, in the way I described above? It would have to be trust-based, with none of the burden of the trust on ED/Link/Ekianjo. Just a small community tweak to make shipping a bit cheaper. If persons A, B, C and D all live in city X, and they all want to buy a Pyra, then A, B and C set their delivery address at the same address as D and they arrange a pick-up with D. In terms of trust: A,B,C have to trust D, but there's no extra risk for ED/Link/Ekianjo. It's mostly a synchronization problem: the four orders for A, B, C and D need to happen at the same time, so ED can bundle the shipment as one package. I don't know what his shipment costs are, but usually the cost per weight/volume is very sublinear, so shipping 4 units to one address could very well be only half the price of shipping 4 units to 4 different addresses.
I like this idea.
But, thats not far away from beeing reseller. Not with a real shop but many small resellers in different countrys. So we also should get the Pyra cheaper then. Depends on how much Pyras are wanted in the country.
Sure, these "resellers" wont earn money; they will just collect the Pyras and send them to the customers.
And have to wait more time for a new/repaired device...
I had a mobilephone and this broke. I sent it to the shop; the shop sent it to the insurance company; this company sent it to a repair station and this repair station sent it to the manufacturer. It took about 3 months!!
Next time the mobilephone broke I was smarter. I directly called the insurance company and asked them where they would send it; they told me the repair station. There I called and they told me what they would do. So I sent it directly to the manufacturer. After 10 days I had my repaired mobilephone back in hands!
So, no. Broken Pyras will not faster be repaired if you send it to a reseller.
Sure a reseller wants to sell his products. But I think you are wrong if you think Thinkgeek sells thousands of Pyras.
I dont understand what you mean.
I wholesaler and our company makes import and export; mosty Europe but also worldwide. We dont have to register every single produce for every country.
What exactly do you mean?
But way more expensive units.
What support? Thinkgeek does not give support. If a device is broken they will get it back and send it back to Germany. They will not repair anything nor they will answer any questions about the Pyra if there is a problem.
They will buy it and sell it. More they wont do!
Thats no problem. You have a shop, you know that. ;-)
Ed, you know we all love you.
But Im not willing to pay 25% more just because you dont want to annoy resellers.
Im also reseller of different things and such things like holding the price high just because there are resellers just dont exist.
Its only resellers problem how they make money. Its not your problem!
If you want then use resellers. The more units will be sold, the better it is.
But dont set the price higher because of this.
Thanks
They won't earn money, they won't officially be anything, they won't be resellers and any warranty or other support would not go through them. The payment would go directly to the real seller, this is all just a "I'm your neighbor so I'll accept the delivery for you" thing.
Of course they're free to "advertize" in the sense of convincing people they know to also buy a Pyra, thereby reducing the shipment cost for everyone.
Additionally, ED could give a small additional discount for bigger orders -- say 2% discount if you buy more than 5 Pyras, 3% discount if you buy more than 10, or something like that. This would give further incentives to do this kind of word of mouth "crowdsourced local micro-advertizing".
For a device like the Pyra, I think word of mouth advertizing is best. In particular by someone who has a Pandora and can show in real life how it looks and what it can do, and then explain how the Pyra is better in every aspect. Geeks know geeks, and like this, the community grows in a good way, where customers know what they're buying so they don't regret it.
It is possible (I don't know, I'm just saying it's possible) that resellers like ThinkGeek only bring in extra customers who impulse-buy the thing based on some shallow commercial ad, and then regret it when they realize it's not what they hoped, giving the Pyra a bad reputation and more software support effort.
pmprog
DNF (Did Not Finish)
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Yeah, and none of the legal responsibilities either. Good luck with that, but I'm not shipping mine in a collective to Random Joe's house because I spoke to him on the interwebs.
I look forward to a "They've not been delivered yet", followed by "I picked them up from the courier's, but my car burst into flames and I lost them all", followed by some eBay sales.
I'm guessing he's thinking of this
Was this supposed to relate to your "crowdsourced shipping" idea? Because you say (in bold below), so the discount wouldn't be involved here, because everyone's buying their own, just getting shipped together
Of course. You're free to not trust anyone (except I guess the shop) by buying it individually and paying full shipping fees. This would be more for people who already know one another in some way and trust one another to some extent. If they don't already know one another, perhaps they could meet in advance or have a phone conversation.
Yes, I guess the discount would have to be based on the shipping address then, not the customer number.
An alternative scheme, perhaps simpler to implement but only possible if the "local reseller" can afford it: let the local reseller buy and pay for all the units of the collective shipment, and let the other buyers pay him back when they pick up their Pyra. This shifts the trust completely to the "local reseller", and of course it makes him more of an actual reseller. The other buyers would essentially buy an untouched second hand unit, I don't know if that causes warranty problems or something.
Grench
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That all sounds like a real complicated solution to avoid paying 10EUR of a 20EUR shipping bill on a 500-650EUR device.
Don't get me wrong though - if people want to band together locally to meet and do a group buy to save shipping - that's all cool. Doing it from an official basis though? That sounds like a whole lot of pain for the manufacturer to keep track of.
Don't get me wrong though - if people want to band together locally to meet and do a group buy to save shipping - that's all cool. Doing it from an official basis though? That sounds like a whole lot of pain for the manufacturer to keep track of.
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
I paid more on shipping, I wanna say 27, for my CC Pandora at whatever price ED was selling them around when I joined. I was going to buy some other stuff but I think the shipping costs jumped if I added any more small/light items, and the additional shipping was not worth it. I still wouldn't trust you people to get my Pyra to me.
I have been screwed over by close friends and family for less, so I prefer not to have anyone else involved. Even if there is no malice involved, the more third parties there are the greater the chances that something could go wrong, and the more everyone can try to place the blame elsewhere. I want none of this:
It works better if whoever I buy from (ED for my Pyra) ships it and I can see that it was handed off to the carrier, and possibly to another domestic carrier, then to me. Not that this will eliminate theft, as we have had a couple packages that were "delivered" by fedex mysteriously vanish when we were "not home" despite a houseful of people on two occasions. We aren't talking vacuum cleaner bags here, though.
That gives me another reason to support the idea of domestic resellers: less people involved between seller and buyer, and greater likelihood that packages can be insured and payments will be made if it is lost or damaged.
None of this is really important to me right now. What I really want to know is when I can buy one.
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FaeMinx
Rainbow Liberation Instigation
i am infinitely patient. I'm not even waiting. 
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
Good, I should get mine before you.i am infinitely patient. I'm not even waiting.
Is it THAT bad within the US?
In Germany, the reseller is required to replace the device RIGHT away, without any waiting time, if it is defective!
Well, they did sell quite a lot of GCW Zeros and GetDigital.de (basically the same in Germany) did sell quite a few Pandoras as well.
I don't expect them to sell thousands - it was just an example. But distributors usually increase the publicity of devices quite a lot.
That's why EVERY normal product is being sold through them.
The WEEE law in Europe.
It's for recycling of electronic products.
Each seller that sells a product to the END customer has to send monthly reports to each country where he sold that product and how many he sold.
However, he needs to register that product first before he can do that.
So for example, if I sell the Pyra in Germany, I have to register the product there, let them know how many I sold each month and will get an invoice which I have to pay which will be used to cover the recycling costs for that product.
If I sell it to an austrian end customer, I need to do that there as well.
Registering also costs a fee - between 100 and 1000 EUR, depending on the country.
This is only needed if I sell it to end customers.
So you either don't sell to end customers or are simply ignoring that law (it's pretty new, btw. Not every country switched to that yet, but they will within the next few months).
I can also ignore it and ship my products whereever I like, but if this is being found out, it can be really expensive.
Really? UPS charges more than 60 EUR for a shipment.
If the Pyra is sold for 400 EUR, that's more than 10% - so it will be close to what the local distributor can offer to you.
Well, as mentioned, I don't know US laws, but in Germany (and probably most of Europe), the seller is REQUIRED to replace it within a few days for their costs.
If you send it to Germany, it would either take 4 - 5 weeks shipping (international letter) or cost about 50 - 60 EUR again.
So your costs would increase either 120 EUR (back and forth) or you'd have to wait for 8 - 10 weeks before you get it back.
Instead of having a distributor who replaces the unit right away for local shipping costs.
That worked pretty well with Link now, didn't it?
It always depends on the country you live in.
A lot of germans actually don't even have a credit card and I know many who didn't buy a product simply because they had to transfer the payment outside of Germany (which scared them).
I know americans basically pay everything with their credit card - but don't expect it to be that way in every country.
So, you'd rather buy it for let's say 450 EUR.
With a distributor, it might've been 560 EUR (25%)
Shipping costs: 60 EUR.
Unit breaks for some reason, shipping costs back and forth about 100 EUR.
That would be 160 EUR. 450 EUR + 160 EUR = 610 EUR
With a local distributor, shipping costs would've been 20 EUR or something like that, so it would be 580 EUR.
No customs as well, so faster return time.
Okay, you mention you are a reseller (I am as well, without it, the Pyra wouldn't even exist!)
Let me ask you something:
The stuff you resell... you are buying it for the same costs a normal customer can buy it in a store?
If that's the case, how are you making profit?
Or are you selling it for a higher price than the normal customer could buy it somewhere else?
If I charge Link the same price I charge any other customer, how would that work?
He'd have shipping costs to transport the units from me to his warehouse. He has warehouse costs, costs for handling everything, for returns, for the website, etc.
To be able to pay these expenses, he needs to make profit.
If Pyras would cost 25% more than they cost in my shop - why would anyone buy from him?
Please explain how reselling does work if a reseller pays the same price as a normal customer.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Then you shouldn't want resellers involved. You might think everything is fine since they have contracts and all but in reality on small scales like this there are cases of resellers not paying for shipments or the company they bought from not sending their wares (or refunding in a timely manner).
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
I want resellers involved because they will help get the word, and the product, out to more people. I doubt ED would intentionally take someone's money without sending the units that were purchased. ED seems to prefer having resellers, and he is the one making/selling the things and might not get paid for a shipment, so if it isn't a major concern of his why should it bother me. It would suck for a very small number of people if the resellers didn't ship to their customers, but I would hope those people would mention, here or elsewhere, that a reseller is screwing them over or not shipping quickly. I only buy from small companies that have a currently good reputation, otherwise I stick with the big ones that have a proven record of not stealing from their customers, and that are well known enough that legal action shouldn't be a problem since I won't be able to impact their sales much by informing others of what they are doing. Examples of each would be Ithic or DragonBox for little guys, and ThinkGeek or Amazon for bigger ones.
Keep in mind that I would rather support small businesses than big ones. Their livelihood and name are on the line, so most don't actually want to screw that up. Some random internet person that says "hey, send me some money and we will split the cost of shipping" or "hey, let's combine our orders, just send it to my place" is a completely different thing. They are much more likely to pretend they screwed up by accident or didn't know they did wrong than a business that has records of all of this.
As I have said, I am buying mine from ED. If I wasn't trying to get one right away I would probably buy from someone here (reseller in the US) because it would be quicker, possibly cheaper, and less of a hassle. Also, sometimes customs seems like a blackhole.
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Hello Ed,
Thirst, thank you for your answer.
It is that bad in Austria! I live in Vienna and here it is like it is in Germany. If some device breaks (not if its broken when buying), then the reseller must not replace the device. Mostly he will send it to a repairstation. Sure the reseller can replace it, but thats only goodwill; voluntary service.
So no. We will not get a new device without waiting time if something breaks.
Okay. I think you didnt read my last sentences.
The more you sell, the better it is. And if you want to use resellers, then just do it.
The important part is: Dont set the price higher because of them!
We dont sell electronic so I didnt know that.
But there are two things to remember:
a ) You only can avoid this costs if you dont sell anything; do you want that? Only sell through resellers? I thought you want both; resellers and selling at your shop?
You wont save this costs if you also sell at your own.
b ) The prices are not as high as you may think.
I looked for Germany; there are offers for 250 Euro a year for half a ton (iirc) electronics. How many Pyras would that be? Would not be much for every single Pyra.
In Austria I found something like 4Cent per Item. Thats not much. Other countrys should be similar.
I dont know what you mean. Did you ever had a broken device like a mobilephone?
There is no law that says the reseller has to replace the device within a few days!
Sure, shippingcosts are higher. But again: You can use resellers; but dont raise the price because of them.
Yes, not all Germans have a creditcard. But who cares? Germans buy from you in Germany and so they dont need a creditcard.
Now we have 450 plus resellercosts plus shipping?
Come on...
At you calculation you said about 400; with shipping costs to Austria that would be maybe 420Euros.
What do you calculate here? You calculate a reseller in the price and then you calculate with shipping costs from Germany to US?
If someone buys at a reseller the shipping costs would be smaller. Or if you sell it to US, then you have bigger shipping costs but no reseller!
Dont calculate both. That makes no sense!
Sure I will explain.
We are reseller of different products. We buy them in Sweden, Germany, Poland etc and sell them to Austria, Germany, Swizerland, France and sometimes to the US, Mexico, etc.
We buy large amounts from the manufacturers and we buy several times from them so we get a discount on the prices. The discount depends on the quantitiy and the manufacturer. It can be 5% but also be 20%. From one manufacturer in Germany we buy since about 15 years; about 5tons a year; there we get 25%. Also the shipping costs are very small for the single piece because we buy hundrets of kg at once.
So the products get cheaper.
If a customer wants to buy at the manufacturer, he can do this. But a customer will only buy a few pieces, will get no or just a small discount and he has to pay the full shippingcosts; which can easily be higher than the products costs.
Also we offer service for our customers. We choose the right product for them; the best matching and cheapest. And if the customer is not happy with our produt he can send it back to us and will get a refund.
Thats the reason our customers buy at our shop. They will get service and a cheaper product. So easy it is.
If we would buy only a few pieces from the manufacturer we will get the same price as all others will get.
Ed, are you afraid of the bankrupt? Every time you speak about prices they get higher and higher....
Ed, we all love you. You are a smart guy and we respect you.
And we like and love the Pandora and will love the Pyra.
But dont forget: The Pyra is nothing for the massmarket. Its not a Nintendo DS. Its a special product for special people.
If you calculate, then calculate right. Too less is bad for you; but too much is also bad for you.
You should earn money with the Pyra; if you sell many of them you should get rich.
But please always remain on earth. Do not exaggerate.
I hope you can understand this text; I also used google translator.
Thirst, thank you for your answer.
It is that bad in Austria! I live in Vienna and here it is like it is in Germany. If some device breaks (not if its broken when buying), then the reseller must not replace the device. Mostly he will send it to a repairstation. Sure the reseller can replace it, but thats only goodwill; voluntary service.
So no. We will not get a new device without waiting time if something breaks.
Okay. I think you didnt read my last sentences.
The more you sell, the better it is. And if you want to use resellers, then just do it.
The important part is: Dont set the price higher because of them!
We dont sell electronic so I didnt know that.
But there are two things to remember:
a ) You only can avoid this costs if you dont sell anything; do you want that? Only sell through resellers? I thought you want both; resellers and selling at your shop?
You wont save this costs if you also sell at your own.
b ) The prices are not as high as you may think.
I looked for Germany; there are offers for 250 Euro a year for half a ton (iirc) electronics. How many Pyras would that be? Would not be much for every single Pyra.
In Austria I found something like 4Cent per Item. Thats not much. Other countrys should be similar.
I dont know what you mean. Did you ever had a broken device like a mobilephone?
There is no law that says the reseller has to replace the device within a few days!
Sure, shippingcosts are higher. But again: You can use resellers; but dont raise the price because of them.
Yes, not all Germans have a creditcard. But who cares? Germans buy from you in Germany and so they dont need a creditcard.
Now we have 450 plus resellercosts plus shipping?
Come on...
At you calculation you said about 400; with shipping costs to Austria that would be maybe 420Euros.
What do you calculate here? You calculate a reseller in the price and then you calculate with shipping costs from Germany to US?
If someone buys at a reseller the shipping costs would be smaller. Or if you sell it to US, then you have bigger shipping costs but no reseller!
Dont calculate both. That makes no sense!
Sure I will explain.
We are reseller of different products. We buy them in Sweden, Germany, Poland etc and sell them to Austria, Germany, Swizerland, France and sometimes to the US, Mexico, etc.
We buy large amounts from the manufacturers and we buy several times from them so we get a discount on the prices. The discount depends on the quantitiy and the manufacturer. It can be 5% but also be 20%. From one manufacturer in Germany we buy since about 15 years; about 5tons a year; there we get 25%. Also the shipping costs are very small for the single piece because we buy hundrets of kg at once.
So the products get cheaper.
If a customer wants to buy at the manufacturer, he can do this. But a customer will only buy a few pieces, will get no or just a small discount and he has to pay the full shippingcosts; which can easily be higher than the products costs.
Also we offer service for our customers. We choose the right product for them; the best matching and cheapest. And if the customer is not happy with our produt he can send it back to us and will get a refund.
Thats the reason our customers buy at our shop. They will get service and a cheaper product. So easy it is.
If we would buy only a few pieces from the manufacturer we will get the same price as all others will get.
Ed, are you afraid of the bankrupt? Every time you speak about prices they get higher and higher....
Ed, we all love you. You are a smart guy and we respect you.
And we like and love the Pandora and will love the Pyra.
But dont forget: The Pyra is nothing for the massmarket. Its not a Nintendo DS. Its a special product for special people.
If you calculate, then calculate right. Too less is bad for you; but too much is also bad for you.
You should earn money with the Pyra; if you sell many of them you should get rich.
But please always remain on earth. Do not exaggerate.
I hope you can understand this text; I also used google translator.
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