Has *anybody* received a refund from OpenPandora Ltd (Craig's) in 2013?

[vcoleiro1]

Sadly the biggest issue right now isn't the pre-orders Craig has left, but IMO the much larger refund list he has.  I'm still not clear on how those people who have requested a refund will get their money when Craig has none left in his company.


Is there is a plan for this?, ie if requested by Craig, can he receive cash for units sold instead of a Pandora?

That wouldn't be a problem for me.


Ah, right:


In case you wondered why the numbers for my customers are not matching:


Forgot to mention: The remaining units are basically finished (and therefore, the people are not in the preorder queue anymore), but I couldn't contact them via email to ask for the current address, so they're not shipped yet. I'll send them letters via snailmail as well.

ED, in the last several months, has any money from Pandora sales been sent to Crag?.

If not, that would explain the Craig refund drought. Be good to know - After all, that is what this thread is about

 

[overgauss]

There's a few choices that we can make as a community. 

Here's a few:

1). We can choose to continue to crap down the back of Craigix' neck, demonize him on the forums (and slashdot even!), and continue to make demands out of him.

2). We can choose to play the blame game and root for our favorite team.

3). We can choose to leave speculation behind and work as a community to fix the problem.

4). We can choose to anticipate what type of panic may occur if the actual pre-order numbers are divulged without a suitable means of solving the issue being in place before-hand.  (Do you REALLY want to know what the numbers are?  How did that xmas panic thingy work out for us?)

Over time I've seen Craigix pushed out and marginalized by the community.  He gave us warning signs that he was getting tired of it.  Instead we persisted.  He indicated that he felt his hands were tied.  We called him a liar.  He hinted he was close to saying "fuck it I'm done!"  We badgered him.  Does this excuse his behaviour?  Not really.  But it offers an explanation, that anyone that is human might understand given enough thought.

I don't think that the best way to solve this problem is to continue to crap down the back of the neck of the person that is also part of the solution.  You can see where that got us. We've mostly left the pre-orderers out to dry (it's been implied that it's acceptable for them to wait as long as 2015 or longer for a refund, or they either pay additional money to upgrade), we've fractured the community with this divisive "this dream is better than that dream" (Ed+Community),  We've run off a founder at the expense of the ORIGINAL INVESTORS yet to recieve a unit/refund.  And by the way, it appears we killed the P2 dream (icp2?).

Now.  Are we going to continue to act the way we have in the past, that generated marginal success.  Or are we going to positively affect the future of the Pandora dream?  I find it interesting that the community can argue for days about just about anything, expending untold amounts of energy in the process, yet very few have any interest in arguing on the behalf of the preorderers, or in the interest of keeping this dream ALIVE.

Edit to address this:

"Lastly, if I were in dire straits and didn't do fuck all to save whatever is left to save (like promotion, simple changes to the website etc etc) and someone would step up and service my customers, I'd like to think that I'd show a lot more gratitude and humility then Craig does. I'm truly shocked by his egocentric behaviour and pathetic attempt of trying to manouvre himself into the victim role. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have any mirrors in his house."

This is not helpful.  If I chose to do so I could destroy this argument with relative ease.  It would require several quote dumps, walls of texts, and generate huge sums of drama.  Frankly it would give me great pleasure to destroy this notion of yours.  I've been wanting to speak about it for months now, but I haven't.  Instead I have consistently asked the community to allow Craigix and Ed to discuss this and have personally asked Ed and the community for help, tools, resources,etc. to help drive a community effort to fix this problem well before it reached critical mass like it has now.

The easy thing is to be negative.  The hard thing is to be positive.  Let's try the hard thing for a little while and see how that goes.  It's not too late!

 

[EvilDragon]

ED, in the last several months, has any money from Pandora sales been sent to Crag?.

No, only units so far.

 

[Exophase]

There's a few choices that we can make as a community.

Here's a few:

1). We can choose to continue to crap down the back of Craigix' neck, demonize him on the forums (and slashdot even!), and continue to make demands out of him.

2). We can choose to play the blame game and root for our favorite team.

3). We can choose to leave speculation behind and work as a community to fix the problem.

4). We can choose to anticipate what type of panic may occur if the actual pre-order numbers are divulged without a suitable means of solving the issue being in place before-hand. (Do you REALLY want to know what the numbers are? How did that xmas panic thingy work out for us?)

Over time I've seen Craigix pushed out and marginalized by the community. He gave us warning signs that he was getting tired of it. Instead we persisted. He indicated that he felt his hands were tied. We called him a liar. He hinted he was close to saying "fuck it I'm done!" We badgered him. Does this excuse his behaviour? Not really. But it offers an explanation, that anyone that is human might understand given enough thought.

I don't think that the best way to solve this problem is to continue to crap down the back of the neck of the person that is also part of the solution. You can see where that got us. We've mostly left the pre-orderers out to dry (it's been implied that it's acceptable for them to wait as long as 2015 or longer for a refund, or they either pay additional money to upgrade), we've fractured the community with this divisive "this dream is better than that dream" (Ed+Community), We've run off a founder at the expense of the ORIGINAL INVESTORS yet to recieve a unit/refund. And by the way, it appears we killed the P2 dream.

Now. Are we going to continue to act the way we have in the past, that generated marginal success. Or are we going to positively affect the future of the Pandora dream? I find it interesting that the community can argue for days about just about anything, expending untold amounts of energy in the process, yet very few have any interest in arguing on the behalf of the preorderers, or in the interest of keeping this dream ALIVE.

Edit to address this:

"Lastly, if I were in dire straits and didn't do fuck all to save whatever is left to save (like promotion, simple changes to the website etc etc) and someone would step up and service my customers, I'd like to think that I'd show a lot more gratitude and humility then Craig does. I'm truly shocked by his egocentric behaviour and pathetic attempt of trying to manouvre himself into the victim role. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have any mirrors in his house."

This is not helpful. If I chose to do so I could destroy this argument with relative ease. It would require several quote dumps, walls of texts, and generate huge sums of drama. Frankly it would give me great pleasure to destroy this notion of yours. I've been wanting to speak about it for months now, but I haven't. Instead I have consistently asking the community to allow Craigix and Ed to discuss this and have personally asked Ed and the community for help, tools, resources,etc. to help drive a community effort to fix this problem well before it reached critical mass like it has now.

The easy thing is to be negative. The hard thing is to be positive. Let's try the hard thing for a little while and see how that goes. It's not too late!

The community has done well beyond their part in trying to improve the situation (patience, buying more Pandoras, upgrading to get better Pandoras, upgrading to get the same Pandoras faster, contributing software in and out of competition, and flat out donating large amounts of money), it's not fair to say we need to now "work as a community." There's nothing any of us can do to convince Craig or ED that their understanding of the Pandora sales agreement was wrong and even if we could it wouldn't change anything. People can stop saying nasty things about Craig but frankly it doesn't even matter if he's fed up with us or not, he holds no cards in this game anymore (by his own insistence no less). The only power he has is to hand over his preorder list (which people have asked for about as nicely as possible) or decide to go for bankruptcy. If he wants to do the latter to spite the community for being mad at him then he'd may as well get it over with, but he'll probably see that doesn't help anything since no one's pressing legal action. And it sure looks like he doesn't want to do that.

Nothing's going to change. Pep rally's don't help. If you want to help donate. But I think you can't since you want a refund like many others, so you might talk big in supporting Craig but you can't support him in the one way that matters..

 

[vcoleiro1]

Sadly the biggest issue right now isn't the pre-orders Craig has left, but IMO the much larger refund list he has.  I'm still not clear on how those people who have requested a refund will get their money when Craig has none left in his company.


Is there is a plan for this?, ie if requested by Craig, can he receive cash for units sold instead of a Pandora?

That wouldn't be a problem for me.


Ah, right:


In case you wondered why the numbers for my customers are not matching:


Forgot to mention: The remaining units are basically finished (and therefore, the people are not in the preorder queue anymore), but I couldn't contact them via email to ask for the current address, so they're not shipped yet. I'll send them letters via snailmail as well.

ED, in the last several months, has any money from Pandora sales been sent to Crag?.

If not, that would explain the Craig refund drought. Be good to know - After all, that is what this thread is about

ED, in the last several months, has any money from Pandora sales been sent to Crag?.

No, only units so far.

Ok, so getting back on topic, The above tells you why no one is getting refunds.  Hope that helps the original poster and anyone else interested in the refund situation.

Looks like no one will get a refund until Craig starts requesting at least some payments over getting Pandoras from EDs sales.

 

[skeezix]

There's a few choices that we can make as a community. 

Here's a few:

1). We can choose to continue to crap down the back of Craigix' neck, demonize him on the forums (and slashdot even!), and continue to make demands out of him.

2). We can choose to play the blame game and root for our favorite team.

3). We can choose to leave speculation behind and work as a community to fix the problem.

4). We can choose to anticipate what type of panic may occur if the actual pre-order numbers are divulged without a suitable means of solving the issue being in place before-hand.  (Do you REALLY want to know what the numbers are?  How did that xmas panic thingy work out for us?)

Over time I've seen Craigix pushed out and marginalized by the community.  He gave us warning signs that he was getting tired of it.  Instead we persisted.  He indicated that he felt his hands were tied.  We called him a liar.  He hinted he was close to saying "fuck it I'm done!"  We badgered him.  Does this excuse his behaviour?  Not really.  But it offers an explanation, that anyone that is human might understand given enough thought.

I don't think that the best way to solve this problem is to continue to crap down the back of the neck of the person that is also part of the solution.  You can see where that got us. We've mostly left the pre-orderers out to dry (it's been implied that it's acceptable for them to wait as long as 2015 or longer for a refund, or they either pay additional money to upgrade), we've fractured the community with this divisive "this dream is better than that dream" (Ed+Community),  We've run off a founder at the expense of the ORIGINAL INVESTORS yet to recieve a unit/refund.  And by the way, it appears we killed the P2 dream (icp2?).

...

Right; being negative doesn't help. But being positive starts with him

Let me paraphrase and reverse a Front-242 track

People want to help, come banging to his door to help, but if that man throws rocks at you.. what can you do? If you come to help a man, and he opens the door.. you can help. The man has to want to be helped,

Instead, people try to help, but he wont' reveal any facts or information (why?! after how many years of asking? , and he never says thanks, just keeps playing fast and loose. Sure, maybe chalk it up to all the stress, but still.. the door is closed, and he's throwing rocks. Passive aggressive.

jeff

 

[overgauss]

"Nothing's going to change. Pep rally's don't help. If you want to help donate. But I think you can't since you want a refund like many others, so you might talk big in supporting Craig but you can't support him in the one way that matters.."

You've missed my point, and took opportunity to take a swing at me as usual. No where did I claim to support Craigix nor did I ask for others to support him.  If you don't want to consider trying to be positive, by all means continue to be the same as you ever was.  If you want to continue to swing at me, by all means, continue to do so. If the only solution you offer is a non-solution,  It's not much of a solution after all.

I've been singing the same tune since waaaay back when the community was defending Craigix, blaming CC, and offering the non-argument that he could have went bankrupt but chose not to.  It's typical that you're on my case now, for doing the same thing I was doing back then.  This positive sentiment of mine started like q3 of last year.

"it's not fair to say we need to now "work as a community.""

You continue to miss the point.

 

[skeezix]

Ok, so getting back on topic, The above tells you why no one is getting refunds.  Hope that helps the original poster and anyone else interested in the refund situation.

Looks like no one will get a refund until Craig starts requesting at least some payments over getting Pandoras from EDs sales.

And to me at least, that would be rediculous; already ED is sending 'free units' (that cost ED money). ED could have used those units to clear his queue, or to *gasp* make a few bucks somewhere, to pay his other debts. Instead, he's sending units to Craigs customers.

But sending cash... to Craig?

Thats crazy talk.

At the same time.. yeah, theres currently no way to get refunds for Craigs customers that want refunds; can't squeeze blood from a rock. I have no idea how to solve that, but getting EDs cash (_more_ of EDs cash) and sending to Craig seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Remember, this is the same as ED having shipped over a hundred units for promise of payment,a nd then got nothing. ED has _already_ sent what, $20k or something to Craig, when you remember that. (A big number, I don't recall how much.)

jeff

 

[overgauss]

"Right; being negative doesn't help. But being positive starts with him"

My point is that it's hard to be positive when everyone is crapping down the back of your neck.

Edit:

Also I totally LOVE Front-242!

 

[Exophase]

"Nothing's going to change. Pep rally's don't help. If you want to help donate. But I think you can't since you want a refund like many others, so you might talk big in supporting Craig but you can't support him in the one way that matters.."

You've missed my point, and took opportunity to take a swing at me as usual. No where did I claim to support Craigix nor did I ask for others to support him.  If you don't want to consider trying to be positive, by all means continue to be the same as you ever was.  If you want to continue to swing at me, by all means, continue to do so. If the only solution you offer is a non-solution,  It's not much of a solution after all.

I've been singing the same tune since waaaay back when the community was defending Craigix, blaming CC, and offering the non-argument that he could have went bankrupt but chose not to.  It's typical that you're on my case now, for doing the same thing I was doing back then.  This positive sentiment of mine started like q3 of last year.

"it's not fair to say we need to now "work as a community.""

You continue to miss the point.

I'm sorry, did you actually have a point somewhere in there? You being "positive" isn't worth a damn, and btw blaming the community for driving off Craig or killing iCP2 isn't being positive at all.

Please tell me in concrete terms what it is you think we could be contributing that we aren't, and maybe what it is you think you're contributing or could be contributing.

Pandering to Craig and treating him nicely regardless of what he says or does isn't going to change anything, that's silly and naive. People were nice to him for ages. And there's nothing left to change anyway.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Ok, so getting back on topic, The above tells you why no one is getting refunds.  Hope that helps the original poster and anyone else interested in the refund situation.

Looks like no one will get a refund until Craig starts requesting at least some payments over getting Pandoras from EDs sales.

And to me at least, that would be rediculous; already ED is sending 'free units' (that cost ED money). ED could have used those units to clear his queue, or to *gasp* make a few bucks somewhere, to pay his other debts. Instead, he's sending units to Craigs customers.

But sending cash... to Craig?

Thats crazy talk.

At the same time.. yeah, theres currently no way to get refunds for Craigs customers that want refunds; can't squeeze blood from a rock. I have no idea how to solve that, but getting EDs cash (_more_ of EDs cash) and sending to Craig seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Remember, this is the same as ED having shipped over a hundred units for promise of payment,a nd then got nothing. ED has _already_ sent what, $20k or something to Craig, when you remember that. (A big number, I don't recall how much.)

jeff

Its not crazy, ED is ok with it as he mentioned.  All it involves is cash being sent to Craig that would be otherwise used to build a Pandora that would normally be sent to him.  

Basically the point of this thread was to find out whats happening with refunds.  Now we know, no refunds are happening for Craigs customers because at the moment he is getting Pandora's from ED to fulfill pre-orders as opposed to getting cash to fulfill refunds.  

One would assume the best mix for Craig would to get a balanced mix of Pandoras and cash.  This is a change that needs to happen otherwise no-one is getting a refund

 

[overgauss]

"Nothing's going to change. Pep rally's don't help. If you want to help donate. But I think you can't since you want a refund like many others, so you might talk big in supporting Craig but you can't support him in the one way that matters.."


You've missed my point, and took opportunity to take a swing at me as usual. No where did I claim to support Craigix nor did I ask for others to support him.  If you don't want to consider trying to be positive, by all means continue to be the same as you ever was.  If you want to continue to swing at me, by all means, continue to do so. If the only solution you offer is a non-solution,  It's not much of a solution after all.


I've been singing the same tune since waaaay back when the community was defending Craigix, blaming CC, and offering the non-argument that he could have went bankrupt but chose not to.  It's typical that you're on my case now, for doing the same thing I was doing back then.  This positive sentiment of mine started like q3 of last year.


"it's not fair to say we need to now "work as a community.""


You continue to miss the point.

I'm sorry, did you actually have a point somewhere in there? You being "positive" isn't worth a damn, and btw blaming the community for driving off Craig or killing iCP2 isn't being positive at all.


Please tell me in concrete what it is you think we could be contributing that we aren't, and maybe what it is you think you're contributing or could be contributing.

I'm sorry Exophase.  It's clear that I've deeply wounded you in the past.  It's the only real explanation for your persistent behaviour towards me. It explains why your bias makes you twist my words, and why your hate seethes from your keyboard.  Carry on.  I can take it.  Dish out as much as you want until you feel all better inside.

Edit:

I see you edited your post to include this:

"Pandering to Craig and treating him nicely regardless of what he says or does isn't going to change anything, that's silly and naive. People were nice to him for ages. And there's nothing left to change anyway."

To that I simply point you to forum comment history that indicates otherwise.  About the change stuff, you continue to miss my point.

 

[skeezix]

Before anything can happen, Craig needs to publish an exact list of customers, so that ED can make plans. At this point, the list is unknown, and Craig could conceivably keep asking for units/cash forever .. and so ED has a hard line, and he'll deliver up to that point, so he doesn't get milked. ED needs a concrete number, not off the back of the envelope. Something he can plan for. Without that, he can do nothing more than he already is (following his last published plan.) Why is this number being held so close to Craigs chest?

jeff

Everyone, step back, take a deep breath, and vent all your anger through playing Compo4All. Go beat someones score.. if you can!

http://repo.openpandora.org/?page=detail&app=compo4all-skeezix-0001

 

[Exophase]

I'm sorry Exophase.  It's clear that I've deeply wounded you in the past.  It's the only real explanation for your persistent behaviour towards me. It explains why your bias makes you twist my words, and why your hate seethes from your keyboard.  Carry on.  I can take it.  Dish out as much as you want until you feel all better inside.

You have a very active imagination Overgauss. I guess if you have nothing to say in response to my questions (which you know, are because of my deep seated hatred of you and not because you said anything that could be perceived as highly questionable or pointless) we can all just leave it at that.

 

[overgauss]

Skeezix, your question was pretty much answered.  I would agree that Ed should have that information.  Craigix said he'll give it as long as certain guidlines were met first.  What I'm not sure that I agree with (from a business standpoint) is if those numbers should be published to the public.  I see both the consumer and the business side of things.  I'm leaning that the best thing for the consumer right now is looking at things from a sales/ cancellation of sales type angle.

Edit:

"You have a very active imagination Overgauss. I guess if you have nothing to say in response to my questions (which you know, are because of my deep seated hatred of you and not because you said anything that could be perceived as highly questionable or pointless) we can all just leave it at that."

Speaking of leave it at that.  I pretty much have for the most part.  For instance I don't follow you from thread to thread everytime I disagree with you. You've made comments about registers, assembly (language), and multiple core emulation (to name a few) that I don't necessarily agree with, yet I didn't hop into those threads to destroy you even though it would have been easy and fun.  In essence you don't control my behaviour, yet you consistently react to mine. I leave you to your opinion, yet you refuse to leave me to mine.  It's ok.  I understand.  You really can't help yourself because you don't have the willpower to control your behaviour.  If it will at all atone for the grevious harm I must have inflicted upon you in the past, feel free to start an Exophase pwns Overgauss thread.  Come at me as much as you like there.

Perhaps for now, it's best that you ignore me like i asked you many times in the past to do.  It's not about us, it's about keeping this Pandora dream alive.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Skeezix, your question was pretty much answered.  I would agree that Ed should have that information.  Craigix said he'll give it as long as certain guidlines were met first.  What I'm not sure that I agree with (from a business standpoint) is if those numbers should be published to the public.  I see both the consumer and the business side of things.  I'm leaning that the best thing for the consumer right now is looking at things from a sales/ cancellation of sales type angle.

Overgauss, my guess right now is that Craig has more pre-order refunds to fulfil than Pandora pre-orders to ship.  Given that, and the knowledge that we have just established regarding how Craig's pre-order shipments are still happening via the arrangement with ED + How no refunds are happening.via that arrangement. Do you really think that information would lean people to get a refund over remaining in the pre-order queue? No would be the answer.

Learning how may Pre-orders are remaining to be fulfilled and how many are to be refunded IMO would be a plus right now in regrads to preventing more refund requests

ie Most times openness can be a plus for business reasons.

 

[Exophase]

Please Overgauss, I must see your insights about registers, assembly language and multiple core emulation that would destroy comments I've made on the topics. Start a new thread for this, I must insist.

 

[TrashyMG]

^ I'd like to see that, I don't have television this is the only entertainment I have.

 

[vcoleiro1]

These couple of threads where ED and Craig have bashed each other are bad enough, but do they have to end with forum members bashing each other?

Lets keep it civil shall we.

 

[DaMummy]

you're all just a bunch of bullies, even ED now