Has *anybody* received a refund from OpenPandora Ltd (Craig's) in 2013?


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yes, that's the point, through ED will start gaining money (well rather get money to reimburse lot of things) once he'll clear his queue as he will still invest half the benefits to pay for craigX's unit as of now.
 
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Why havent i seen any hair pulling yet?

Not just craig and ed in that reference by the way. lol

Craig, good to see you back on the boards mate!
Two feet and a heartbeat, lets walk forward.

ED, community sentiment will not be leaving you anytime soon!
Personally, the opinion pieces after your posts attempting to reassure customers was having me start to think it was not you at the keyboard mate.

Seriously, the situation is what the situation is.

At this present moment i gave a zero interest loan to a bunch of guys that had an idea or a dream that i agreed with and said take my money.

I'm still waiting on an original preorder that was upgraded to 1ghz... but i'm not all that fussed. That may be because i went ahead and bouht a secondhand unit as well (number 1001 i think) but even still, i can drop by to these boards and see what is going on with the knowledge things are slowly moving forward.
I always look at the bigger picture.

My 2 cents worth.
 
 
All this will make for a great book or movie one day.  I wonder who would play Craig and ED. Tom Cruise for Craig maybe.  
 
Just posted this on the ask Craig Questions thread, would appreciate it if any suggestions for what should've been asked / comments relating to this post could be given in this thread.
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Hi Craig, good to see you back on the boards after being away for few months. Most of the following was posted on the refund thread but was in danger of getting lost.
Here are some things that would help a lot :
 
1) Let ED know how many outstanding pre orders for Pandoras you currently have. This will allow plans to be made to fulfil these orders.
 
2) Give some support on the official iCP support forum & deal with things like this That sort of stuff is frankly embarrassing on an official product forum.
 
3) Seek to engage & enthuse the iCP2 community, talk about the keyboard layout, the Firmware, where the Dev units are etc.
 
4) People are told they have not got a Pandora and that you personally lost a lot of money due to mistakes from Circuit Co., let them know why you have not sued Circuit Co.
 
5) Give a clear and detailed account of what happened to the money raised from the 1 Ghz pre orders. I think that people who were told to pre order at a premium cost to help cover development / testing, i.e. true supporters of the project, deserve to be told why they are still waiting for units.
 
6) Let people who are asking for refunds for Pandoras know when / if they are going to get their money back.
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It's understood that you & ED have a different interpretation of how things should have happened after he took over production. Why not let ED know what was specifically agreed to happen that did not happen and I'm sure he'll make efforts to fulfil his side of the agreement.
 
ED is seen as the 'Saviour of the community' because that's what he is, if you disagree then consider where the project would be if ED had not taken over production. The fact that ED is seen as the 'saviour' does not denigrate your input in terms of time & money in any way.
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Question 1 :
 
When ED took over production of Pandoras why did you stop selling Pandoras?
My understanding of what was supposed to happen at this point would be that the previous roles would be reversed, i.e. You would sell Pandoras (which you received at cost price from ED) at a profit from your own UK shop / website. The profits generated from these sales would be used to supply refunds & fulfil existing pre orders. There was nothing stopping you from doing this, you did not need anyone's permission to do this, why was it not done?
 
Question 2 :
 
Do you have any intention to provide active support on these boards to the iCP / iCP2 community? If not then why not get the support section moved to your own web space?
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General point : Please understand that I fully appreciate that you are in no way obliged to answer these points / questions but I believe that if you did then the overall situation could be greatly improved. I hope you also appreciate that people are fully entitled to raise such points / questions, even if you choose to ignore them. Please understand that if you choose to ignore perfectly reasonable questions then people will tend to think the worst, i.e. that you have something to hide. Help others & help yourself by taking the time to answer / respond to any reasonable question put by members of the Pandora community.
 
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Mr_Loon, not sure what luck you are going to have there, but if you are going to ask I'd like to know (in addition to your questions)

1)  The split between remaining pre-orders remaining to fulfill and those that now want a refund ie how many in each camp

2)  An explanation of how money is going to be raised to pay for refunds 

3)  An ETA on when the ICP2 will be delivered with the UH and without
 
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I think ED did exactly that: for each unit he sent to one of his preorderers, he also sent one unit your way. It's just that your queue was longer to start with.
As you can see, maybe Ed is right, my presence here is destructive.
Which isnt quite the same thing as ED asking you to stay away, but a salute to you for editing. The same goes for making claims about deals. ED is sticking to his plan, which he has got in writing. If you have any issue with this whatsoever then post said plan. It is not confidential, ED quotes it all the time, and he has run it past his legal advisory.

To much the same extent ED has a plan and is sticking to it, the same goes for CC. If that is a bad deal for you then its not CC or EDs fault, its on you. Sue them.

Ok, so getting back on topic, The above tells you why no one is getting refunds.  Hope that helps the original poster and anyone else interested in the refund situation.

Looks like no one will get a refund until Craig starts requesting at least some payments over getting Pandoras from EDs sales.
And to me at least, that would be rediculous; already ED is sending 'free units' (that cost ED money). ED could have used those units to clear his queue, or to *gasp* make a few bucks somewhere, to pay his other debts. Instead, he's sending units to Craigs customers.

But sending cash... to Craig?

Thats crazy talk.

At the same time.. yeah, theres currently no way to get refunds for Craigs customers that want refunds; can't squeeze blood from a rock. I have no idea how to solve that, but getting EDs cash (_more_ of EDs cash) and sending to Craig seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Remember, this is the same as ED having shipped over a hundred units for promise of payment,a nd then got nothing. ED has _already_ sent what, $20k or something to Craig, when you remember that. (A big number, I don't recall how much.)

jeff
Its not crazy, ED is ok with it as he mentioned.  All it involves is cash being sent to Craig that would be otherwise used to build a Pandora that would normally be sent to him.  

Basically the point of this thread was to find out whats happening with refunds.  Now we know, no refunds are happening for Craigs customers because at the moment he is getting Pandora's from ED to fulfill pre-orders as opposed to getting cash to fulfill refunds.  

One would assume the best mix for Craig would to get a balanced mix of Pandoras and cash.  This is a change that needs to happen otherwise no-one is getting a refund
This is up to craig, he doesnt sell units, nor does he promote units to help EDs sales. ED does cross-upgrades and works at craigs queue by bailing it out. He also does the repairs for craig, and he bought all the remaining parts from him after CC. He can mix his profits and sales as he pleases. If he doesnt do anything and keeps selling his assets then it doesnt take a genious to figure out what happens. He says he cant do anything, but time and time again ED has said he will also do drop shipping. Which basically means craig doesnt need to be in production, he could just be in sales, for his own profit and use the profits as his leverage to get things moving himself.

As for the deal with ED it is for units. Sales he handles on his own, and what he has done there is explained above (not by me), but ill try to clarify as best i can without drawing.

ED sent craig 1GHz units that he was supposed to be paid back for, which in turn would fund pre-orders. Craig spent this to refund his refund queue instead.

ED then takes this money from the promised units.  What has happened is craig refunded dead debt.

Someone has to wait for craigs stuff to be sorted, unfortunately, . (Just like craig has to wait for ED let profits fund craigs free units.)

Basically its money in the door, and money out the door. Probably craigx makes a little profit from sitting on interest, but nothing against the debt racked up with said money.

So there is no money to refund people with and any money at all should for the case of everyone not go there, ideally it should make the profit it was intended to.

It grinds everything to a halt, and it takes his granted units out of the hands of preorderers and puts it into debt that he has racked up meanwhile. It doesn't shift any units

It craigs risk as a businessman he is now facing, it is his contract with CC, his contract with ED, dont complain or blame. It is pointless and doesnt change a thing in the real world. As for reputation, no, no good there either.

So now its all up to ED and craig doesn't want to give numbers nor promote. Basically he could have kept running his shop, but people were flocking to ED because there a sale meant your money was actually going towards your unit, whereas the profits where used as best fit. Cant compete with that attitude with anything else but the same service.

IMO section: the reason for this is that those who want refunds make that against his company and he has his hands tied for insolvency. Could be the same for the preorder list legally, but as long as you are on it you aren't a problem and your only option is to cross-upgrade or ask for a non-existant refund. But at least it buys him time that ED can use to bail him out, ICP2 production or cross upgrades. And i don't think craigx is the only one who has his personal money in there, but i do faintly remember craig mortaging his house, so that means his company Openpandora Ltd. (limited) in bankrupt. When it files for insolvensy he isnt held personally responsible other than he might not be able to start any more companies and nobody (kickstarter) wants to back him in any further endavours.

What ties his hand is that the bank doesn't go away quite as easily. If he doesn't have a company (icp2 or pandora) they will take their mortage and sell it on the open market, because they don't want their assets (house) tied up to dead debt. As far as his company goes its the people who want their pandoras and especially the ones who want their money that are his creditors. Indirectly the bank is a guaranteer of sorts because the total sum of his endavours are the risk involved in him paying back his mortage. My guess he does not want those people to come knocking after a chapter 5 insolvency. Also he has bought a leaf through his company, and that is something that will be split into as many pieces of the pie as there are creditors, because that belongs to the company. (guessing that last bit based on his infamous electric car post)

As for the i'm not in charge and havent been so for a year, he tried the same excuse for my support and supper support badges that i ordered from him 3 oct 2011... Got that log from the IRC yesterday, and as _wb_ said, he hasnt been on IRC for ages, and probably will not return anytime soon.

Skeezix, your question was pretty much answered.  I would agree that Ed should have that information.  Craigix said he'll give it as long as certain guidlines were met first.  What I'm not sure that I agree with (from a business standpoint) is if those numbers should be published to the public.  I see both the consumer and the business side of things.  I'm leaning that the best thing for the consumer right now is looking at things from a sales/ cancellation of sales type angle.
Those guidelines were ED promising to bail out his whole queue, entirely from a blind point of view. Then ED explain why that doesn't happen. He has done so many times in the past, and he understands german law better than I do. TLDR its inherrently not interesting for him to do so from a business point of view.

It was 800, and then craig shifted his funds for the 1GHz sales into cutting that number by stitching ED up for payment. Why would ED agree to pay for that by means of an obligation now?

The list doesnt get any shorter than ED makes it, and its not like he can save them all in one go.

All of the above are things ive observed, you can find the original ED posts explaining everything on the forums, irc, or wiki.

If craigx had played with open cards like ED does he couldn't juggle anything. And it certainly seems like thats whats he is doing. 20 units from ED paid for, majority isnt paid for but goes into different hands (sans pandora) Some 1GHz units sent, some upgrades, some refunds. When its evident to all that he cant blame anyone and its a ponzi scheme started at the wrong end of the hype. Why the silence?

People might flock to get refunds, your company is in debt going nowhere already.

People might get angry, nothing new there.

From my experience this community is the greatest around, and it sticks by the project thick and thin. I waited years for my preorder from you myself, but i finally got enough of your smoke and mirrors when you topped incompetence with arrogance at my efforts to throw money your way with support.
 
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IMHO the biggest mistake in this project was Craig taking orders for 1Ghz Pandoras and not immediately sending the portion of that to cover production costs to Ed - so he could make more units to send to Craig.

The 1Ghz Pandora had just started to take off - they filled the original queue and then expanded it.  Things were looking bright.  Everyone who bought a 1Ghz Pandora was promised immediate delivery - and that they would fund one from the old queue.

Then Craig stiffed Ed for something in the range of $20K on the first shipment.  That sent every 1Ghz order from there on out into pre-order hell.

Once it became clear that 1Ghz orders were NOT being immediately fulfilled, sales closed down to a trickle.

IMHO that is where the 1Ghz thing broke down - which in turn crippled sales.

I don't frankly care what happened to the 'profit' portion of Craig's 1Ghz original batch - but where did the wholesale purchase portion of it go?
 
This is one of those things - Craig should have thrown that money at ED the second it reached his account and told the refunders they had to wait... even if 20k of refunds might have pissed people off

It would have been the correct business decision.... but I think he didn't want people besmirching his name.
 
This is one of those things - Craig should have thrown that money at ED the second it reached his account and told the refunders they had to wait... even if 20k of refunds might have pissed people off
I think he said that UK laws requiered him to give the money to refunders.
 
I think he said that UK laws requiered him to give the money to refunders.
He's not giving money to people who want refunds now so what difference does it make? I think he also legally owed ED the money for those 1GHz units (although Craig apparently thought they were meant to be for free). No matter how you look at it some compromises were inevitable.
 
This is one of those things - Craig should have thrown that money at ED the second it reached his account and told the refunders they had to wait... even if 20k of refunds might have pissed people off
I think he said that UK laws requiered him to give the money to refunders.
Arguably the 'profit' from those orders should go to refunds - that is fine.

The production/wholesale costs though?  That should have gone to ED so that he could keep the production rolling to supply more units.

We are where we are though.  All of that is history.  What matters now is, exactly how many orders of each type are still pending?

We need to know how long the tunnel is - and is that light we're seeing the other end or a train?
 
With all due respect: Now, if Craig and ED are going to do an email thingie and try to work things out, I'm not sure that this is helped along by continuing to speculate about what "Craigs biggest mistake" was, or what he should have done when, or how ED ought to distribute the eventual profits, or whatever. We could try to not work as hard as possible to remind everybody of every problem or every slight and sling accusations here and there? In my experience, a conversation works better when you don't have a ten-page list of recent misunderstandings to work through first.
 
With all due respect: Now, if Craig and ED are going to do an email thingie and try to work things out, I'm not sure that this is helped along by continuing to speculate about what "Craigs biggest mistake" was, or what he should have done when, or how ED ought to distribute the eventual profits, or whatever. We could try to not work as hard as possible to remind everybody of every problem or every slight and sling accusations here and there? In my experience, a conversation works better when you don't have a ten-page list of recent misunderstandings to work through first.
That's a pretty good idea.  I would suggest going one step further though.  Lock this thread.

What I would like to see then is a response back from Craig & ED saying, 'We've sorted out what we're likely to get sorted out and here's what the current situation is - and what the plan going forward is.'

Of course the lack of that basic level of communication is a primary driver for a big bulk of the above thread.

Still - if I had a vote - lock it down.  Preferably have ED do it with a statement that he'll get back to us in a week with the 'current situation'.

We've all said our 2 bits worth.
 
Still - if I had a vote - lock it down.  Preferably have ED do it with a statement that he'll get back to us in a week with the 'current situation'.
I would love to do that, but based on my previous experiences, there won't really be a resolve and the current situation will not really change, sadly.
 
Still - if I had a vote - lock it down.  Preferably have ED do it with a statement that he'll get back to us in a week with the 'current situation'.
I would love to do that, but based on my previous experiences, there won't really be a resolve and the current situation will not really change, sadly.
Id like an epic update in a week once your queue is done..... regardless of the Craig factor

The last update was on Christmas....
 
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Talking about it FTW. Locking threads just makes things look worse than facts and honesty mixed up with a few flames. I'm O.K. with the pain, as long as there's gain. And if there has to be a total meltdown to get this thing on the right track, start burning the damn place already!
 
Ok Exophase you got me to google "Timothy Roberts"+CEO. (A CEO who committed securities fraud).


Is it fair to imply that Craig defrauded investors for personal profit? Do you want to let that stand unamended? (Edit fixed typo)
Given that Craig is deliberately avoiding discussion of the state of his 2008 Pandora queue, I'd say it's fair to imply that Craig is engaging in dodgy business. Actually, aside from the fact that he's not gotten any(?) personal profit out of the deal, I don't see much difference between him and Mr Roberts.

D.
Oh, good grief.

We were all warned when we preordered that things could go horribly wrong including the possibility of us losing all our money. Most companies would not provide anywhere near as much information as the OPT used to provide.

They get people complaining when information turns out to be released prematurely and they get people complaining when they don't release the information when they get it. As of this point, Craig hasn't made any money, at least not to my knowledge, nor do I see any evidence that he has made any significiant sums of money.

Of course he's avoiding these discussions, there's nothing good that's come out of them in quite some time as people don't change their minds nor do they even believe what he's saying. Regardless of whether or not these people have valid reasons for disbelief, it's still not particularly useful to post that flamebait.
 
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