GamesCom Video and Remaining Tasks

[levi]

But beware that an 1080p screen needs much higher data bandwidth and the video data comes from the same DRAM used by the CPU. So the CPU has to wait more often. Additionally all software has to render into a bigger frame buffer and more pixels so that everything will be slower.

I wonder how plugging in the HDMI cable to a 1080p capable screen will affect things. Does it create a new 1080p framebuffer alongside the existing 720p buffer, such that all software writing to it now need to write to both buffers to display on both screens?

 

[Silent-Hunter]

If that's the case, I would rather it force the second monitor into 720p mode and just mirror the same framebuffer.

 

[mclien]

two things for the graphic programms:First I use fluxbox and the other is a question to the terminal only programms:
Do you all use mutt as the mailclient or did you only forget to mention what programm you use?

 

[EvilDragon]

System Settings → Display and Monitor → Display Configuration → Scale Display
Then drag the slider to 2

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI

Umm... no. That's just a workaround to scale the full screen (using what? CPU Power? 3D processor?) while rerendering the fonts on top so that they don't blur.

This has nothing to do with a proper dpi setting.

 

[oskda]

We chose to use 720p before we switched to the rotator chip.
We've shown a desktop with a few pictures to various persons and no one really saw a difference between both.

¿Really? Then you concealed/hided it very well, because the FIRTS time I heard about 720p in Pyra was in thread https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/beautiful-landscapes-are-prettier-than-portraits.74058/ "Beautiful landscapes are prettier than portraits", where you discover (for our eyes) that we must change from FullHD to 720p because we need a rotator chip (then you tough so) and that chip is only 720p (no 1080p rotator chip).

Even you stated:

What was the original idea?
Originally, I wanted to try to get an LCD that runs in landscape mode, not portrait.
(Which means for example: a 1920x1080 display instead of a 1080x1920 one).

Before that thread ("Beautiful landscapes are prettier than portraits" where you present we need rotator chip), Pyra was going to have 1080p LCD display.

And you presented Solomon rotator chip including:

However, it also offers tear-free rotation and scaling (which is what we need!)
But: Only for displays up to 720x1280, nothing higher (yet).

So then you say us it only offers 720p, no 1080p, and it is the first time we know about a 720p Pyra.

Here are some pieces of the mentioned thread:

Well, we've been working with the FullHD LCD for a while now, and right now, it looks like we need to switch to a different one.

Why, you might ask?
Well - because it's in portrait mode... but read on...


What was the original idea?

Originally, I wanted to try to get an LCD that runs in landscape mode, not portrait.
(Which means for example: a 1920x1080 display instead of a 1080x1920 one).

....

All other displays with a higher resolution are running in portrait mode...there's not a single one that runs in landscape mode.

Which caused us quite some trouble.

Rotation with the SoC (OMAP5 in our case)

SoCs like the OMAP5 often have a hardware rotation included (in case of the OMAP, it's called TILER).

However, there are some negative effects...

.....

So we looked for proper solutions...

I found a small chip from Solomon Systech which offers the following features:

Color Correction
Scaling
Rotation
Power Saving features
The chip has been designed especially for MIPI displays and smartphones, mainly to save some power.

However, it also offers tear-free rotation and scaling (which is what we need!)
But: Only for displays up to 720x1280, nothing higher (yet).

Solomon Systech gave me a contact to the European headquarters of one of the biggest TFT manufacturers, and they can offer me a 720x1280 5" LCD, which has already been used by various customers together with exactly that chip.

...

However, as the chip will be put on the LCD Cable PCB, it will be possible to offer upgrade packages to a new FullHD LCD sometime in the future (in case Solomon Systech will ever release a chip that can do FullHD rotation as well).

But that's only an idea yet, no fixed plan

It's not yet fixed we'll use the 720x1280 LCD, as we still need to test it as well as we want to try to improve rotation of the FullHD LD.

But it seems like the better solution to me.

On a sidenote:

The 720x1280 LCD solution incl. the chip is also half the price of the FullHD display (will lower Pyras end price by about 50 - 60 EUR), and the MOQ (minimum order quantity) for us is 1000 pcs - the FullHD has a whopping 5000 pcs MOQ (which means: we'd need 400,000 EUR just to buy the LCDs, whereas we need approx. 40,000 EUR for the HalfHD ones...)
Also, the manufacturer of the HalfHD panel seems to be a lot more interested in selling us the displays, we got really fast replies to our questions, good support and all datasheets needed... remember the issues we had with the FullHD panel...?

This was probably the main reason why Oculus VR agreed to the Facebook deal - they are ALSO in need of landscape LCDs, but with a lot higher resolution and very very fast refresh times... they have no choice but to produce their own LCD (or OLED) to deliver the product they want.
And for producing your own screen, you need A LOT of money....

What are your feelings about that?

I've made a poll - but feel free to post your own opinions in this thread as well.

If you had choosen to use 720p display before that, you hided it really well, because until then we only know about 1080p Pyra, and only in that thread, you justify 720p because of rotator chip limitation. But, of course, it is possible simply you chose 720p and you hided it until you knew abot rotator chip limitation

 

[comradekingu]

So 1080p goes from impossible when it can't happen to less favourable in comparison to 720p when it can.
Being able to omit the rotator chip is not the only drawback keeping higher resolution from fruition, or even diminishing returns.

Edit: I think the decider in the matter was buying a lot of 720p screens, insofar as argument goes, the rest is semantics. We might see 1080p screens sometime in the future.

When DPI scaling is more bullet-proof, and new display-boards make it worth the investment.

Also the touchscreen has to fit, as resolution increases, its easier to get smudginess, since you get diffraction of light between the touch-layer and increasingly small distance between pixels. Atlest on matte coatings.

I think a 1080p version would make sense without touch-layer, for graphics and photography people, ones aren't primarily interested in pulling games at native res at a reasonable frame-rate.

Given a SoC upgrade in the future, there might be a sweetspot for 1080p for everyone.

And then it uses more battery, and everyone is scared. Its a bit like range-anxiety for electric cars.

People are used to having a lot of autonomy that they don't use with cars, and as they switch, they are scared.

Similarly people are used to regular big laptops, so you get into the inverse pattern of thinking that doing more battery-intensive things is bad, even though the problem is "solved" by the comparatively bigger battery of the Pyra.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

1080p is overhyped for small devices, and I'm pretty sure that there's plenty of 1080p screens with a bad display quality.

 

[TrashyMG]

I know there was plenty of concerns from some forum members going full 1080p especially with application performance even before we knew about the need of rotation.

 

[WizardStan]

The thing I think I'll miss most about the rotator chip is that it was also a scaling chip: as I understood it you could request any resolution and it did all the scaling for you in one frame in hardware, no special instructions required. I don't know if the OMAP5 can do that so automatically.

 

[Klumpen]

The thing I think I'll miss most about the rotator chip is that it was also a scaling chip: as I understood it you could request any resolution and it did all the scaling for you in one frame in hardware, no special instructions required. I don't know if the OMAP5 can do that so automatically.

RotatorChip-Edition of the 4 already existing Pyra models confirmed.
Now with fast-scaling®.

 

[oskda]

1080p is overhyped for small devices, and I'm pretty sure that there's plenty of 1080p screens with a bad display quality.

Are you sure?

I have test 5 inches 720p quality IPS LCD display, and clearly I can see sawtooths with that 1280x720 pixles screen. With a good 1080p display, it is better, and with a QHD display it is nearly impossible to see that defects: it seems like a vectorial display, with no pixels.

All this have nothing to do with bad quality displays. Even I don't kown why you talk about bad quality display. Is Pyra BOE LCD bad quality? Are the LCD IPS and OLED displays I have own bad quality (I talk about modern LG, Samsung and Huawei displays)? No, they aren't.

It seems that instead of accepting limitations of 720p display, you try to distract from question, talking about bad quality LCD without saying which ones have bad qualuty, and without comparing that with Pyra LCD qualuty. When in fact Pyra will have a resistive layer which probably will cause worse LCD quality than most important LCD smartphones today.

We have now stuck with a 5 inches 720p display in Pyra, and I am not going to say it isn't negative or to distract because there is no other way now.

Originally Pyra was going to have 1080p, but ended with 720p because rotator chip only supported 720p. Before this thread https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/beautiful-landscapes-are-prettier-than-portraits.74058/ where we are presented with rotator chip only supporting 720p, Pyra was going to be 1080p.

For me Pyra has value beacuse Linux, keyboard, etc, but obviously its dispaly will be much worse than the one I have in my smartphones.

 

[Letalis Sonus]

with that 1280x720 pixles screen.

Are we talking about whole pixels or that PenTile crap? Makes a big difference.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

@oskda
As an example, the 800x480 display of the Pandora displays better colors than one of the latest Samsung OLED (useless curved screen I think) from a friend. Its colors + contrast were aggressive and hurt my eye.

I don't understand you definition of "limitations of 720p displays". Their resolution is very good and well shaped for a small device like a Pandora/Pyra. For a home TV, of course, 1080p is better.
Also you'll find here a majority of people preferring resistive touchscreen. I myself can't comment on that because I don't own a smartphone.

No, we are not "stuck" as the Pyra is modular.

And no, 720p is not "much worse" than what you have in your smartphone, it's just a better choice for the Pyra when you take multiple facts into account, like power draw or price.

 

[Klumpen]

It's not only about numbers.
A good 720p screen will always look better than a crappy 1080p screen.

 

[ible]

but i want 4000p

or maybe a gigap (Gp)

 

[oskda]

I know there was plenty of concerns from some forum members going full 1080p especially with application performance even before we knew about the need of rotation.

Always there are members who get concern about some aspect of Pyra (LCD, keyboard design, color, etc), but Pyra was going to have 1080p until thread presenting rotator chip ( https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/beautiful-landscapes-are-prettier-than-portraits.74058/ ) where we knew we need a rotator chip and that chip only can handle 720p: it was the 1st time we knew Pyra would change from 1080p to 720p, and after that you can argue "720p is better" but, before then, Pyra officially was going to be 1080p .

 

[lukey]

I vote for 720p

 

[oskda]

It's not only about numbers.
A good 720p screen will always look better than a crappy 1080p screen.

A good 1080p screen will always look better than a crappy 720p screen, and better than a good 720p display.

It seems you suppose 1080p screens are usaully crappy, while all 1080p screens I have seen were good to excellent (from good manufactures).

 

[Grench]

I understand the desire for 1080p. It's a good marketing point. However, that is it's primary advantage.

Playing at native resolution in 720p will generate more fps than native 1080p.
When upscaling from other common game resolutions (640x480 for example), 1280x720 is a friendlier multiplier. 2x1.5 Vs 3x2.25 stretched or 1.5x1.5 Vs 2.25x2.25 unstretched.
Raise resolutions and fonts/icons shrink. Not everything is built to auto-scale - application designers assume that as your resolution increases, so does your display size. No, this is not an entirely accurate assumption anymore, but a large number of applications make the assumption in how their icons and fonts are designed.

Yes, there are streaming video services that can push 1080p now. 720p is far more bandwidth friendly, and on a 5" screen you're unlikely to be able to tell any difference in animated/video resolution from one to the other. Yes, if you push a static angled line to nearly any display and get 6" from the screen you'll see the pixel stairstep.

A "good for the money" 720p screen may have less ghosting, faster refresh, be brighter, draw less power, coordinate with the touchscreen layer (screen door), etc. than an equally priced 1080p screen.

My point is, there are more trade-offs to consider than pixel count.

As I understand the design, though, some day when the SoC gets faster and higher quality 5" MPI screens get cheaper, it should be possible to swap them out. The 720p screen, though, is what ED has chosen for us via quantitative and qualitative decision points. Trust ED.

 

[TrashyMG]

@oskda While the SGX 544 MP2 is a power house compared to the Pandora's GPU, it's fairly weak. Not to mention having to scale and rotate non-3D games will have some impact. So Performance wise, it would be better to stick with 720p.