Explaining keyboard layout proposals. Fn hotkeys updated, language switching, powertoggles etc

[_wb_]

Answering some questions about http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59eda9567897c5910ed05bb99f763c4f

What does meta+esc do? What is that thing on B ?

As explained in the comments on the right (in the link), Meta+Esc is the Compose key (by default). The Compose key is the one you press to combine characters, mostly diacritics (Compose " U gives ü/Ü, Compose ~ N gives ñ/Ñ, and so on, also Compose O E gives œ/Œ, Compose T H gives þ/Þ and much more of that stuff -- and you can easily configure your own compose combos). Now that I think about it, Meta+Enter is probably a better location for the default Compose key.

The thing on Meta+B is ¤ (Compose X O to get that character by the way), which is the universal currency symbol. It is a suggested location for €, £, ¥ or whatever your favorite currency is. Or you could map an arbitrary symbol or action to that key and let the ¤ symbol help you to remember where it is.

Did you move /? I would like to get that and another useful character on the right as well and move ` and ~ to meta for other keys. I think the average person will use those less than other characters. Am I forgetting something like a compose function or other method of using them for non-English? I like | in place of those, but ? could also work.

Well, backtick is also grave, which you use to get à/À è/È ì/Ì ò/Ò ù/Ù, which are pretty important in several languages (e.g. French uses à, è and ù; e.g. "à" is their word for to/at/in/on and nearly any other preposition, to give you an idea). And tilde is not just your home directory, it's also used to get ñ/Ñ, which is a letter in the Spanish alphabet.

The beauty of having ' " ` ~ ^ * ( , . available as dedicated (primary or shifted) keys, with no Meta symbol on them, is that it allows my "Meta for dead key diacritics" principle: basically you get the equivalent of Compose-on-a-shoulder-button for the most common combinations, without having to sacrifice a shoulder button to it:

Meta+' A gives á/Á (acute)

Meta+" A gives ä/Ä (umlaut)

Meta+` A gives à/À (grave)

Meta+~ A gives ã/Ã (tilde)

Meta+^ A gives â/Â (circumflex)

Meta+* A gives å/Å (ring above)

Meta+( A gives ă/Ă (breve)

Meta+, A gives ą/Ą (ogonek, or for some letters cedilla: ç/Ç ş/Ş)

Meta+. A gives ȧ/Ȧ (dot above)

This covers almost every diacritic, and it is easy to remember -- also it is the same combination of symbols as how a Linux Compose key behaves by default.

There are two relatively important ones missing: caron (used for e.g. š/Š ž/Ž) and stroke (used for e.g. ł/Ł, đ/Đ, ø/Ø). The default compose key way to get those, is C or < for caron, and / or - for stroke. Since / and < are already meta-keys themselves, the above method does not work; - is on an action button so it shouldn't have Meta-behavior, and Meta+C is already used for Pause/Break. I could change Meta+C to dead caron, but I don't really like that since I think Compose + C + <letter> to get a caron is not the most intuitive compose key combo to start with. If you know the thing is called a caron, then the mnemonic may work for you, but e.g. in Czech they call it háček, some people call it wedge, inverted circumflex, or inverted hat.

There are two solutions, and I propose to implement both:

1. add Shift to the mix: shift+/ (so in reality Meta+Shift+A) is dead stroke (e.g. L1+L2+A O gives ø/Ø), shift+< (so in reality Meta+Shift+F) gives dead caron

2. use another symbol (not the default compose key symbol): I propose Meta+% for dead stroke (Meta+% O gives ø/Ø) and Meta+V for dead caron (Meta+V Z gives ž/Ž).

Then there are two more diacritics, but they are quite rare. Macron (e.g. ā) is used mostly to indicate long vowels in transcriptions; it is also use in Latvian and Lithuanian. Double acute (e.g. ő) is also known as "Hungarumlaut" since it is basically only used in Hungarian. I know it only from the name Paul Erdős, the Hungarian mathematician.

The usual Compose key combinations for macron involve - or _, the usual ones for Hungarumlaut use =. Again, that wouldn't work with just Meta. I propose Shift+_ for dead macron and Shift+= for dead Hungarumlaut.

The only thing missing now to cover all European languages, are ligatures like æ/Æ, œ/Œ, and special letters that can be thought of as ligatures, like ß/ẞ (SS), þ/Þ (TH) and ŋ/Ŋ (NG). Except for æ/Æ and ß, these are quite rare, either because they're only used in small language groups like Icelandic, or because people typically don't bother with the ligature (e.g. French has œ/Œ in some words like sœur, œuf, œuvre, and œil, but few people will complain when you write soeur, oeuf, oeuvre, oeil, and your word processor's auto-correct will auto-fix these; in German it is acceptable to write "ss" instead of ß). It's not a huge problem to have to use an explicit Compose for these; we could also use Meta+& to make a slightly shorter version of them, e.g. Meta+& S gives ß, Meta+& A gives æ/Æ, but I don't think that's very useful.

You also changed the play and next. Ideally they are on the same two R1 R2, since then they can stick out of your pocket and you have access to them. Thats what i thought when i implemented it at least.

The audio jack and the volume wheel are on the left, like Grench pointed out. So it makes sense to put at least Play/Pause also on the left.

Ctrl-ins and Shift-ins would require crazy dexterity and hands made of rubber.

Shift-Ins is quite easy: L1+L2+Backspace should be easy to do. Ctrl-Ins is a bit trickier: L2+R1+Backspace. Should still be doable.

Pi appears twice. Once on the keyboard (is that backspace?) and once on the game controller. Not sure of the purpose in over-Greeking.

I don't know what your browser is doing, but there's supposed to be a left-pointing arrow on the backspace key (←).

How about mapping the right game controller + key to Insert and the - key to Delete? The key currently used as Del can then get mapped to + and shift (-). Having Del right next to Enter is DANGEROUS in a keyboard driven menu environment. Highlight something - push delete to loose it forever or enter to launch it. Get it up and left of Backspace so it's a bit harder to hit on accident.

Delete at an action button is just as "dangerous" to press accidentally, so close to navigation keys like Home/End/PgUp/PgDn.

Ins/Del for the extra action buttons was also my first idea, but I think Insert is not important enough to deserve a dedicated key, and conceptually, strange as it may sound given keyboard traditions, I don't think Ins and Del belong in the "navigation block" with Home/End/PgUp/PgDn.

In a lot of programs, + and - are used for zooming, either directly (like in many image viewers) or in shortcuts (e.g. Ctrl +/- in web browsers, terminal emulators, office programs, etc). Zooming is a type of navigation, just like the arrow keys (dpad) and the "big-step arrow keys" (Home/End/PgUp/PgDn). For that reason, I think it makes sense to put + and - over there.

Also, w.r.t. æsthetics I think "+" and "-" make much nicer action button labels than "Ins" and "Del".

Swap Meta and Ctrl on the shoulder buttons. Meta is going to get used far more often in this layout and needs to be accessible from both sides (hands).

I made the keyboard Meta accessible from both hands by putting Meta in the middle.

Swapping the shoulder Meta and Ctrl to get Meta at R1 and Ctrl at L2 makes sense since Meta is arguably more important than Ctrl so it should get a more "primary" shoulder button. However, for backwards compatibility it's better to keep Ctrl at R1. In terms of which modifier combinations are easy or hard to do, it makes no difference: it's still Shift+Alt and Ctrl+Meta that are relatively hard to do, while the others (Shift+Meta, Ctrl+Alt, Ctrl+Shift, Alt+Meta) are still relatively easy to do.

On a normal keyboard, Ctrl+Shift and Ctrl+Alt are easy to do because they're close to one another. Shift+Alt is weirder. So it makes sense to mimic that "feel" on the shoulder buttons.

 

[_wb_]

Another update:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/605cb54bd1e845ca132f871f3fd8623c

Changelog:

- I renamed the Meta key to "Pyra", to make it clear that it's a Pyra-specific modifier key with properties of what people know as Fn, AltGr, and Compose

- Keyboard Shift is now bottom left, to the left of Z, where people will probably look first.

- ` ~ and ' " are now neighbors, which makes sense: as diacritics, they're related, and they're also used as delimiters (e.g. LaTeX-style quotes are ``foo'') which fits the theme of that keyboard row. Also, if you remap them to e.g. Ö Ä, then you no longer need Pyra+" as dead key diacritic for umlaut, so you can put the punctuation symbols at Pyra+Ö/Ä instead. Finally, this move nicely groups all punctuation in one cluster.

- Swapped Del and Tab again, because I think Del to the left of Backspace makes slightly more sense (in my head at least it does: Backspace erases from right to left, Delete erases from left to right. OK, that could just as well mean that Del has to be to the right). Tab on the right also means that if you only need to remap one key on that row (P+1 but not P+2, e.g. for German which uses just Ü on that row), you don't have to move Tab (you do have to move Del, but you can also just live without it like we do on the Pandora).

I'm starting to like this layout more than my original proposal now. It's very clean and elegant, and also very efficient and universal.

 

[WizardStan]

I think Del to the left of Backspace makes slightly more sense (in my head at least it does: Backspace erases from right to left, Delete erases from left to right. OK, that could just as well mean that Del has to be to the right).

On a regular keyboard, delete is to the right of backspace.

 

[comradekingu]

I didnt quite catch what super is meant to do. I know what it does, but in xfce it does nothing.  To have Pyra and meta on the same key confuses me, it only makes it clear that i should also expect it to be super somehow.

I prefer the rightshift instead of ' "     and also adding shift to the mix for diactrics makes sense, because it means no foreign symbols on the keyboard for anyone.

A modifier for dead-key diactrics is a bit strange, because on US international dead-key is the regular function of the key.

Typing ^ + a would for example result in â. The same goes for ",',~ and `. So dead-keys is something the user should be able to switch on, maybe even only for some chars.

If you have it on and want the character itself you have to type a space afterwards. That is the standard way.

Im going to look more into setting up regional variants of what my layout does in different layouts. The french for example expect ¤  on +4

It makes sense to have previous left and next right. If play and prev is on the left, then you dont have next. Play and next are the ones you need the most.

There is no ideal solution that i can think of, because the jack and volumewheel are both to the left.

 

[_wb_]

A modifier for dead-key diactrics is a bit strange, because on US international dead-key is the regular function of the key.  

Yes, on some keyboards the default behavior of ` ' ^ ~ " (or more typically, a subset of these) is the dead key, so you need the explicit space to get the symbol itself.

If you frequently use the dead key diacritics, it makes sense to do it like that. You could then use Pyra+[symbol] as a shorthand for the symbol itself (or add the space).

As a default behavior, I rather have all primary keys be non-dead symbols, and only the Pyra+[symbol] as dead diacritics. In particular for the rare diacritics (dot, comma/cedilla, * for ring above and ( for breve) that is the only default behavior that is acceptable.

 

[comradekingu]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/986ba6294c89c274cf5e5b1351c35656

I swapped ctrl for shift, to have both shifts at the same side, easier transition from the keyboard part.

This also means ctrl is no longer to the right of Alt on the shoulders.  And more importantly it means Ctrl is atop alt both on the left shoulders and the column-row.

And the reason ctrl is at the top of the column row is because Alt+F-row is more common.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts

Also, with meta at the bottom of the F-row, there are easy swipe-combos to be had with the diacritics of Meta+ 5 6 7 on the numbers row.

I cant quite decide what makes the most sense, having forwards and backwards at the top, or at the bottom.  I kinda feel play and stop should be on top.

Also Forwards and Backwards are more similar in my head than play/pause and stop   Which suggests putting the Back forwards  with the Alt and AltGr

If you are wondering, it all starts with shift having to be the top button, because it capitalizes.   Any thoughts on playpause stop vs back forwards, which one of those should be on top shoulders?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/32608cd39cfe75dddbcf06066488cc3d

- to shiftmod 8  *  moved to 4          This allows all standard stuff to be typed with shift, which is available on the keyboard. It also means there arent two diactrics per key on any of the numberkeys, so you can Meta+ on any of them without having to worry about Meta+shift+   or Meta+AltGr+

* isnt typed that often, and its the ring above Å, which is only used by scandinavians (?) Which in turn have Å on +4 anyway.

- is used for linethrough letters, and £ ¥ € are all such.   Meta+8+ L  Y  or E     will produce that,   mind blown.

Being able to doubleshoulder with one finger is essential. http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16809-gamescom-shoulderbuttons-and-heating/page-9#entry351717

Edit: To really fix the issue of having all natural language input available with shift i had to question the US standard default shiftmod decision on the number row.

A basic requirement of US layout is to be able to input things with only shift, and since there is a lack of buttons, one can not get lazy on the numberrow.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ce1ce2400de4cf7a9ed3b6e96f5bc488  was the result

Also i have changed to    First level   second level   third level mod on the key as some seem to prefer. It was too much mental gymnastics to go with the podium-arrangement of   2 1 3.  Also, shift isnt any longer on the left, so it all came into question.

I rationalize not losing letter-symmetry, because i use shifted letters. So by printing only the capitalized letters, they can be in the centre. The non-printed small variant thereof isnt printed, but if it was, it would go far left.

qQ@   wWł   eE€    rR®          (of which only Q   W   E   R   is printed)

Always wanted big letters, and now it doesnt gnaw on me that they shouldnt technically be small. Problem solved.

 

[_wb_]

@comradekingu: for backwards compatibility, it's better not to deviate from L1=Shift, R1=Ctrl, START=Alt, SELECT=Ctrl,  action buttons are Home/End/PgUp/PgDn. I'm OK with changing stuff that didn't make sense on the Pandora, but I see no compelling reasons to change the shoulder buttons like that.

* * *

So, when are we going to start a poll?

When the poll starts, I would like to nominate this proposal as a candidate layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3a4a99ffb946f9c748d93569eaea4e05

 

[comradekingu]

When ED returns from gamescom next week. I thought i was done with my layout, but have since realized the number and shoulders need work. Saber seems unwilling to provide any explanation of the choices he has made, so i end up having to post my whole critique in firstpost.

I really dont understand why making it look like a 105-key in apperance, but nothing like it in performance is important, when filling up the whole layout with non-standard stuff in non-standard places is ok.

The firstposts also need work, it isnt simple enough. With the 1 2 3 mod arrangement it is a bit easier, albeit LeftToRight centric.  If there is no direction for shift and altGR you would get that anyway.

The pandora layout is a two shoulder layout. Its as arbitrary as 4, but arranging 4 based on how 2 were done, is limiting.

On your layout the columnbuttons are

ALT                                                CTRL

CTRL        and shoulders are        ALT                 thats not consistent _within the same layout_

Meta       

To someone who has no prior experience

ALT          one place, and        CTRL  another,   is confusing.  And also the ctrl  alt shoulderscheme of the pandora is not widely used or known.

CTRL                                       ALT

I think quite important that the arrangement of the buttons you cant see makes sense. You are currently pretending shift on the left side of the keyboard makes sense, which also is a bad reason to also misplace shouldershift.  Ctrl on right shoulder in itself makes no sense.

It also says on your layout that meta is both altGr and Fn, when it is neither.  The only thing it has to do with AltGr is the AltGr of US international, which is only using AltGr as a hack to produce dead-keys, not as AltGr.

It becomes an advanced concept to explain this to someone who isnt a keyboard-wizard.

Third level modifiers are only available on the number row, the opposite of how I arranged it.  Also, if super+shoulders is mediabuttons, that is exactly the kind of functionality FN does.    If we can do colours, maybe we can get people to understand that corresponding colour on other buttons means hack, i dont think one extra colour for meta and one extra colour for super is going to work.  Especially if meta is called pyra.

 

[WizardStan]

I swapped ctrl for shift, to have both shifts at the same side, easier transition from the keyboard part.

This is a bad idea in my opinion. Being able to hit modifiers with either hand is a benefit and one thing that bothered me on the Pandora was that 50% of the upper case letters I was using required one hand to do two things: there should be a bit of balance, it should be possible to hit all two-button combinations with either one or two hands. Not to say that people won't get used to it, that it didn't "work" on the Pandora, I just think it would be better if each modifier was accessible for each hand.

 

[comradekingu]

You can hit column-row alt and select with any hand, requires two hands though. On the pandora shouldershifting means you cant one-hand the right side, but that side has the least letters commonly used to start sentences.

There should be a really good reason to take away consistency.  The one-handed shouldershift on the same side feels worse than shouldershifting on the other side.

Therefore I think instead we should cater to shoulder-shift on right-hand and starting the sentence with the left (on the left side for the most part)  since that feels better.

Since most sentences start at the left, using right hand for keyboard and shouldershift makes a whole lot more sense than doing the same on left, which is what wb is doing. When you factor in that right keyboardshift is much more efficient in that it combines with punctuation also being on the right, it becomes even more valuable. When shift is only to the left, and the shiftmod is consistently to the right on the key its as bad as it could possibly be.

Right keyboardshift makes sense,  right shouldershift feels better.  You get a convergence-value out of using right hand for all shifting. On my layout any punctuation-sequence is a swipe-combo to the left or right, if you want to start a new sentence it becomes a triangle. Extending that triangle up to the right shoulder is as easy a transition as im able to make.

We have to think about beginners, and noobs. If the wizardstand wants left shouldershift, then remap away. I see that, but i dont think its a good value-proposition for the general crowd.

Is your one-handed approach handheld?  If its on a desk you can still shift with pinky-finger on one hand and reach the whole keyboard.

 

[_wb_]

About the order of Ctrl and Alt:

On a regular keyboard, it is first Ctrl and then Alt on the left, while on the right it is first Alt and then Ctrl. Problem?

It's not even clear to me which shoulder button is L1 and which one is L2: is the biggest one L1 and the smaller one L2, or is it top=L1, bottom=L2, or what would make most sense? What is even top and bottom? You can put it on a table and then it's clear: bottom is battery side, top is keyboard side, but if you hold it in your hands and turn it over so you can see the shoulder buttons (which is the orientation used for the L and R labels on the Pandora), then the order is reversed.

So, comradekingu and Saber, what are in your opinions the disadvantages of my current proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3a4a99ffb946f9c748d93569eaea4e05

(or the advantages of your proposals compared to mine)

 

[comradekingu]

On 86-key ctrl is in the corner each time, that makes some sense.  Then again right ctrl is a largely unused key. Flipping it 180 around an axis you cant see and then folding it 90 isn't the same thing.

The top shoulders havent been the biggest since the red prototype.  Its like this on the green latest one.

L1 is the small key on top (upwards),  L2 is the bigger key on the bottom (towards battery). Think maslows pyramid and count in a hierarchical way.

If it doesnt make sense to turn it around and decide that way, it makes no sense to flip it towards you.  Keys are dictated by the position you use them in, you should flip and be thinking about holding it, not flipping it.

Marking it in relation to flip or turn is giving in to confusion.

L1              R1

L2              R2       is the playstation standard. Which the pyra can focus on emulating too.

I think you are using the template I made, but im using the latest template you made, which is way better and more in tune with reality.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0e799ef01c7c3ad82a97bd4cab2e33c6   is as far as german makes sense, better accentuation too. Only meta+1 is the only key lacking diactrics on the number row.

Notice the ' on shiftmod next to t. Very nice for don't couldn't  and so on.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6e7f66c96f35228f96da400b5ae142ec  This is where the diactrics and german went too far.

Losing ./ on the same key was the big blow.  Redundant / doesnt resonate well with me.

(How it compares to making sense for the user)

• The biggest disadvantage is the shift which i explained in a post above. 
• Not colouring super doesnt make it make sense as FN.  You need meta on shoulder since you are so dependent on it, which makes mediabuttons mental gymnastics.  This is the reason i dont prefer 2perkey.
• The ctrl/alt alt/ctrl flip.
• Starting out with 2 keys being easier to see is a point ruined by printing Prt Scn  or equivalents on one button.

An easy fix is printing left arrow on backspace, that is way better than the ins combo you are doing.  Actually i dont understand whats going on there at all...

Calling meta super confuses people who know what super is, and makes it near impossible to understand for those who dont. Branding is speculative and ugly. Rise above.

Yes it looks good on the pandora, but does the pandora keyboard look good without that button?

How it compares to mine:

Less effective punctuation, only combo for dot space.

The US layout is very low on punctuation and symbols that you actually use for typing. ? should still be numberrow. Because we dont have full numberrow it doesnt make sense to force US shiftmods on numberrow, because we lack many of the extra buttons and cant print ' or ¨ in +4.  And if we do, its recursive remapping galore.

One of the reasons US international diactrics fail for us is because we dont have enough keys to implement every single one with single key.  . : being the same for example.

Its not that US shiftmods are so bad, its that the rest of their layout is.  Except / central.  +4 is obviously the goto for avoiding dead-key  but with halfway +4  halfway  US international dead-key  nobody is pleased.

This could be solved by changing the US dead-key system. The " doesnt make sense for example. But that is uglier than invoking (meta) +shift, or +altgr   Or we could slippery slope into the US layout, but thats throwing bathtubs onto babies and keeping the bathwater.

You have Meta+^ in one combo with standard US shiftmods, but you lose the  aigu retroflex grace sequence, and those two combos.  Also ' next to t is lost.   ' on standard position would be nice if it wasnt in +4.

The brightness symbols  dont really tell me anything about screen nor rgb-leds.  I think its better with only a sun. Using more visual estate to still not explain fully, is worse.

On the togglebutton, why cant you just press it and you get a menu to toggle, a toggle-panel?  I dont understand why meta+ usb and BT are together.  I think we should just make it a toggle power symbol, so that we can have hdmi and usb 3g wifi bt and whatever else.

I dont think mine looks professional yet, but it doesnt look unprofessional. I have less respect for keyboards that fill up to the brim with symbols. It makes them look crowded, and the keyboard looks more like a hack and less designed. Both functionally and visually. It can never be as good, which means it is always, also by connotation, ugly. We have a choice, others dont.

If super was useful in especially xfce or otherwise id see an upside to doing no altGr. To lessen the point i have meta+  ASDF   and  meta+ ZXCV to work with in making super-combos.

Super next to escape is begging for disaster.

Second level on keyboard should be shiftmods (since you cant shift a number)  You dont use third level mods, and i have meta as an diacritic invoker, so none of us run into obvious problems there.

One upside to doing 3perkey is that  the second position isnt shift or meta.   The third position being  altGr or Meta (only for F-keys)  is less confusion and more standard.

Having 2perkey means its easier for people with bad eyesight to see the keys, but that treshold is squandered when you print ctrl/select (or any of them)  on a key

A dedicated - is nice, but i dont know if its possible.

How it compares to sabers layout:

It is actually workable. I dont feel compelled to buy a pyra with wblayout, but i dont feel discouraged.  Saber had somewhat cleaner powertoggle section, but not without causing other problems.

He has moved his layout to the unconstructive keyboard layout thread, and is unwilling to explain. If ED likes things that cant be made sense of, its possible he likes sabers layout, and might pick it, but only because he has authority to force decisions.

What i think the pyralayout is in relation to constraints, is a pandorakeyboard with an added row and wider. Then speakers in the way of the top row, which means less there.

Its always ok in the sense that the pandorakeyboard was ok too, since more keys are better.  But considering how hard it is to make a full layout, i dont think it was ever anything more. We see this in the mockups, the PCB layout, and most importantly the dual space. That doesnt even make sense on its own. Much less with this amount of keys.

Ive spent much more time on keyboard layouts than anyone else, so with some level of authority i feel confident that i see almost how good it can be, and certainly how many solutions are better than both the pandora and preliminary official pyra-layouts.

 

[WizardStan]

The one-handed shouldershift on the same side feels worse than shouldershifting on the other side.

All the more reason to ensure the shifts are on opposite sides: thumb shifting with one hand is impossible and shoulder shifting the same side is more difficult, so by having them on opposite sides you can thumb shift one half and shoulder shift the other half, kind of like on a real keyboard.Whether the shoulder shift is on the left or right I don't think matters, as long as the thumb shift is on the opposite side, or the middle where it is still accessible (but I think ctrl and alt are right for that spot)

 

[Silent-Hunter]

@comradekingu: for backwards compatibility, it's better not to deviate from L1=Shift, R1=Ctrl, START=Alt, SELECT=Ctrl,  action buttons are Home/End/PgUp/PgDn. I'm OK with changing stuff that didn't make sense on the Pandora, but I see no compelling reasons to change the shoulder buttons like that.

* * *

So, when are we going to start a poll?

When the poll starts, I would like to nominate this proposal as a candidate layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3a4a99ffb946f9c748d93569eaea4e05

If Print Screen is also SysRq then the ftrace buffer can't be dumped as you have to press Z to do that. Perhaps it could be on the ' " key instead? The rest of the layout looks excellent!

 

[_wb_]

@comradekingu: for backwards compatibility, it's better not to deviate from L1=Shift, R1=Ctrl, START=Alt, SELECT=Ctrl,  action buttons are Home/End/PgUp/PgDn. I'm OK with changing stuff that didn't make sense on the Pandora, but I see no compelling reasons to change the shoulder buttons like that.

* * *

So, when are we going to start a poll?

When the poll starts, I would like to nominate this proposal as a candidate layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3a4a99ffb946f9c748d93569eaea4e05

If Print Screen is also SysRq then the ftrace buffer can't be dumped as you have to press Z to do that. Perhaps it could be on the ' " key instead? The rest of the layout looks excellent!

I think Alt+POWER as Magic SysRq makes sense (or perhaps Super+POWER or Pyra+POWER). 

I wouldn't put the label "SysRq" on the keymat though. AFAIK, the key is only used by kernel hackers and for doing clean reboots or getting back to a console when something is making the system unresponsive -- but I assume we'll still have the same immediate-writeback behavior as on the Pandora, so the difference should not be that big between a proper shutdown procedure with clean unmounts, and taking out the battery.

Anyway: my point is, if you're knowledgeable enough to know how to use the Magic SysRq key, then you probably don't need the explicit label.

I'm not even sure if ScrollLock and Pause/Break should really be there (the labels that is) -- they are rarely used, and I don't want to clutter the keymat with unnecessary stuff.

 

[rygD]

Pyra+POWER

This amuses me for reasons unrelated to the key combination.

Will the people submitting keyboard layouts to be voted on get feedback from ED before the vote or after?

 

[Silent-Hunter]

@comradekingu: for backwards compatibility, it's better not to deviate from L1=Shift, R1=Ctrl, START=Alt, SELECT=Ctrl,  action buttons are Home/End/PgUp/PgDn. I'm OK with changing stuff that didn't make sense on the Pandora, but I see no compelling reasons to change the shoulder buttons like that.

* * *

So, when are we going to start a poll?

When the poll starts, I would like to nominate this proposal as a candidate layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3a4a99ffb946f9c748d93569eaea4e05

If Print Screen is also SysRq then the ftrace buffer can't be dumped as you have to press Z to do that. Perhaps it could be on the ' " key instead? The rest of the layout looks excellent!

I think Alt+POWER as Magic SysRq makes sense (or perhaps Super+POWER or Pyra+POWER). 

I wouldn't put the label "SysRq" on the keymat though. AFAIK, the key is only used by kernel hackers and for doing clean reboots or getting back to a console when something is making the system unresponsive -- but I assume we'll still have the same immediate-writeback behavior as on the Pandora, so the difference should not be that big between a proper shutdown procedure with clean unmounts, and taking out the battery.

Anyway: my point is, if you're knowledgeable enough to know how to use the Magic SysRq key, then you probably don't need the explicit label.

I'm not even sure if ScrollLock and Pause/Break should really be there (the labels that is) -- they are rarely used, and I don't want to clutter the keymat with unnecessary stuff.

I agree with this. As long as the functionality is there. It's also useful for dumping things and such.

 

[comradekingu]

The one-handed shouldershift on the same side feels worse than shouldershifting on the other side.

All the more reason to ensure the shifts are on opposite sides: thumb shifting with one hand is impossible and shoulder shifting the same side is more difficult, so by having them on opposite sides you can thumb shift one half and shoulder shift the other half, kind of like on a real keyboard.
Whether the shoulder shift is on the left or right I don't think matters, as long as the thumb shift is on the opposite side, or the middle where it is still accessible (but I think ctrl and alt are right for that spot)

But then you dont have the argument of being able to use two hands anymore, which is the benefit. You are forgetting that shouldershift is always more effective, (since it doesnt tie up any thumbs) and right side is the best side to have shouldershift, since then you can use your left hand to type.

Your suggestion isnt without merit, but there is too much lost by doing it. Combos/transition. The implementation is also not ideal, because keyboardshift is redundant, you dont get that bonus by trading away tab.

With some help from Sukow ive arranged delete at the far right, making the powercluster symmetric. A bonus is that delete is now on the "right" side, and close to pgup/dn/home/end on ABXY.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a4aa76daa1e52378057f5d7677b478b3

There could be something to gain on changes to the number row, but i think it is the highest value preposition it can be.

 

[_wb_]

For Print Screen maybe an icon works better than text: ⎙

(that's a unicode symbol by the way, though not well-supported yet: http://www.decodeunicode.org/en/u+2399/properties)

Swapped Shift and Alt, so shoulder Shift is now opposite keyboard Shift.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f58786caf1ea067e5bd6a815f2ebd9f4

 

[WizardStan]

But then you dont have the argument of being able to use two hands anymore

Que? That is precisely what I am arguing though, that having shifts on opposite sides makes it easier to use two hands. What do you think I'm saying? Because I'm obviously not saying it properly.