Explaining keyboard layout proposals. Fn hotkeys updated, language switching, powertoggles etc

[_wb_]

It is a jack of all trades, master of none. If you have an altGr you dont need the meta.

I think a meta only on F-row and letters make sense .   Because Global 2per-key makes sense to make imprints bigger than they would be with 3perkey.  I dont know which one you get the most value on.

So its QWERTY with Fs in the shiftposition

Numbers are  regular and shift,   letters have symbols in second position on the key, but meta to invoke.

So basically move third level from the number row down to bottom row. Get rid of mediabuttons and the caps-lock  printScr type printing.

This, which wouldnt save because of an error.

wblayout2perkey.png

Edit:  Here we go http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/306b72c0fbe4357b73da236ae985b0ae

If ctrl+alt is dead-key the ' on P+1 isnt needed.  Also i think if leftclick and group doesnt work on leftnub, having leftclick on the right isnt a intuitive goto.

Edit2: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8d65c310899e4b3c2589854e120c80ff  makes a little bit overall sense, but the arrangement needs work.

I realize having right-tab makes sense if you are running dpad with your left looking for lines to indent or backspace.

Unless you can press tab with the meat of the thumb at lower left while having the top joint on dpad. I can do the equivalent on the pandora, but its very dubious.

Thanks for the constructive ideas.

Starting from that, I arrived at this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6af4fc74c76aff2bad68a83299b26a2d

Advantages:

- Only two labels per key (good for readability)

- Conceptually simpler dead key diacritics: just Meta+symbol (~`"'^.,*) to get the dead key version of the symbol

- P+2 and L+2 are arguably not needed for natural language text input

- Meta-labels are somewhat grouped: F-key row, then bracket-like stuff (/|\<>{}[])

- Dedicated ' " and ` ~ keys

Disadvantages:

- no more dedicated / ? key, no more context menu key

- Meta key on the keyboard is harder to reach (about as hard as Alt and Ctrl, so probably no harm done: you'll want to use the shoulder button anyway)

Open questions:

- Swap Esc and Meta? Would maybe make more sense, but now Meta+Esc is an easy swipe, and Meta is slightly easier to reach

- Swap ' " and ` ~ ? That would bring the keys closer to their normal location. However, it is bad for L+1 remapping.

- Swap Tab and ' " ?

- Swap Enter and Tab?

 

[comradekingu]

Its a whole lot better, in the most important way to me, and in an area where the old was severly flawed, it has less visual clutter.  I dont feel this is an offence to the evolutionary achievement of sight.

I made an update to my proposal http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8d65c310899e4b3c2589854e120c80ff  dont know if you saw it.

What does meta+esc do?  What is that thing on B ?

Swap meta and pyra. Meta is much more sentral than super in that arrangement.  What do you envision for super?

At least swap del and tab.   ' "  for   ` ~  does make sense, but as you said it also doesnt.

"P+2 and L+2 are arguably not needed" only for dutch people who are using US international, but they still need their compose.

 

[Grench]

Ctrl-ins and Shift-ins would require crazy dexterity and hands made of rubber.

Volume wheel is now on the left front.  Assuming the user would want that end up in the pants pocket, the most used audio controls should be on the left.  So, swap play/pause with record.  Use the lid switch to mode-change to audio controls when it's closed?

3G BT wifi HDMI button - I'd rather have USB on/off than HDMI - and leave that to software switch if given the choice.  HDMI spec includes a cable-connect signal, right?  But then, so does USB...

Pi appears twice.  Once on the keyboard (is that backspace?) and once on the game controller.  Not sure of the purpose in over-Greeking.

How about mapping the right game controller + key to Insert and the - key to Delete?  The key currently used as Del can then get mapped to + and shift (-).  Having Del right next to Enter is DANGEROUS in a keyboard driven menu environment.   Highlight something - push delete to loose it forever or enter to launch it.  Get it up and left of Backspace so it's a bit harder to hit on accident.

I like what you did with fitting the F1-F12 all in a line.  However, I would still prefer to shift the letters all to the right by one and put the TAB on the left of the Q.  Yes, Tab and F1 share a key then - which is no worse than Tab and F12 sharing a key.

Definitely swap `~ with '".

Swap Meta and Ctrl on the shoulder buttons.  Meta is going to get used far more often in this layout and needs to be accessible from both sides (hands).

Just random thoughts as I was scanning through the board.

 

[Grench]

Its a whole lot better, in the most important way to me, and in an area where the old was severly flawed, it has less visual clutter.  I dont feel this is an offence to the evolutionary achievement of sight.

I made an update to my proposal http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8d65c310899e4b3c2589854e120c80ff  dont know if you saw it.

This one has a weird feeling to me.  Having - (subtract) out front and center and + hidden away feels clunky.

When did Pi become a character representing Backspace?

Meta key MUST be present on the keyboard itself.  Having it exist only on the back triggers prevents the keyboard from being used in a future docking station.

The numbers 1-0 have no meta keys assigned.  This is a bit of a waste.  I'd suggest moving all of the math based keys up into meta-numbers, including that subtract - character, which would free up it's key for DEL, which strikes me as a very logical position for DEL, right under INS.

Where ESC is now could then become a keyboard Meta key.

Again - just thoughts to help the process.

 

[Saber]

Let's just wait and see how the unofficial vote goes.

Where is the unofficial vote being held?  I didn't see a thread for that...

I know this sounds culturally insensitive, but...

International layouts are great - so long as they're kept out of the way.

Let me explain before the pitchforks and torches come out.

The English/US QWERTY keyboard's letters are somewhat unique in that they're nearly all used in not only English but every other language that uses Latin characters.  It makes up the overlap set of nearly every European language.

Many languages require additional characters to fill out their alphabet, but they are characters that only appear in one or 'few' other language's alphabets.   Those characters should be on a modifier-key combination and not used as a primary key mapping.

So, yes, accommodate additional languages as well as possible.  But please leave the keyboard English only at it's top layer?

Thank you.

No No, thank you.

Cleaned up my second post writeup with some minor change to the layout.

Carry on.

 

[comradekingu]

The whole idea was to have 2perkey global.  You can have two 3x3  or 3.5x3 imprints then.   Vs   2x3   3x3   2x3      if there are 3 letters per key.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bc4671e33946a92686da0846a40e1310  

One big difference to my layout is that this doesnt require shoulders to function.  On mine i have to break shiftcombos from the US standard to be able to input ? and - (those are altgr combos now, and no altgr on keyboard)  The difference from firstpost to this is that 2perkey is much more limited in the ways of inputting specials. Dont know if all the dead-keys work.

Its a hard bargain trying to balance my firstpost layout, because it makes sense to the point where if you change just a little thing, the whole thing collapses.

 

[Saber]

Im specifically asking you.

The post you linked to is from January this year.

Ed has recently said this and this and this is how final they keyboard layout is now. Two shifts make sense if , and . on the left does. It also makes sense if you have no shouldershift. I dont think 4 shoulders was even planned back then. Lets say ED meant anything non-german when he said foreign. Ok, then you have english and something that vaguely resembles a german layout.

Everyone elses +4 options then become remapping your non-standard placed, non-standard arrangement +4 non-direct keys, to their liking. I clearly see how that is worse for anyone not english, but not why english is better because of it. Its the inclusion of +4 in a natural place we are talking about here, that is the alternative. A viable one from the layout-proposals given. Do correct us if we are wrong.

If I understand you correctly you generally want something that resembles a 105-key layout, but doesn't  work as well as one that doesn't?

I dont know if its even possible to 10-finger type on the pyra with the wider keys, but im guessing no. As someone who doesn't like the Pandora layout for reasons given, your layout isn't worth much to me.

64 keys being less than 86, or 105 is true for any layout, no matter what choices you make. What im saying is that a full layout is good for most people, whereas a reduced layout is only good for english-speaking ones. It fails for the other half right off the bat because english has the least amount of letter-keys on their layout.

What part of only catering to the English makes it acceptable to actively refuse to cater to anyone else?  I understand it on the Pandora, I don't understand it on the pyras amount of keys.

The international users are paying just as much as English ones. A true 105-key form sucks for 2-finger typing. You want to trick people into buying into your layout only later to realize it doesn't work for English nor international users? At the time of writing your second post proposal still has , . on the left, and enter space on the right.

Also, make a layout on the keyboard-layout tool. Your layout looks nice and clean if its divided in 3 parts, nosomuch if its all in one like the final will be. Please make choices of where to put the imprints on the keys, because this is needed for direct comparison.

Ed said:

(kl. 10.32 +0200) ed_pyra: Yes, but I won't check them out before I'm back home next week

So the deadline is next week.

before changing nick and saying:

(kl. 10.38 +0200) Pyra_GamesCom: layout look wired imho.

To which i can only agree. It does look a bit strange, so strange i would never consider anything else before truly trying to optimize everything.

Ed said this about double-space and seemingly never considered the rationale of not having one till I pitched the idea. A lot of the things on the pandora layout are ill deviced, even for its amount of keys. And some combos are downright broken. Back in the day the community alternative pandora layouts werent much better, but we have shown that full layouts have support for the pyra.

None of ED's posts you referred to have to do with the keys he wants specifically on the keyboard(only the one about excluding diacritics on the keycaps), and I've already answered you about changing the form I use for my layout. The only info I have on the subject is what _wb_ was able to skim off of irc from ED in this post:

"Standard German keyboard keys should be somewhere (in particular Ä Ö Ü ß, maybe also € µ ° §), as Fn keys" and "Two shift buttons on the keyboard itself, for people who don't use the shoulder button as shift".

The reason you are doing your proposal is to have what you think we should have in the layout. The same goes for _wb_ and also for myself. If, after all the hard work, ED and crew like yours the most then so be it. Just be concerned with doing your best and so will I and so will _wb_, and we'll see which is considered unofficially the best by the people who bother to turn out for the vote. Sound good? Good.

 

[_wb_]

Shift+F5 is shift+meta+T Dont understand what it has to do with L+2... I think you mean Shift+F12 shift+meta+(P→2) (P→2 is the key that says ]}f12 )

You have two shifts: one at L1, and one where the Germans have Ä. If you have Ä there instead of shift, then Shift+[F-key] would be Meta+L1+[QWER...]. But Meta+L1 is already a media key (|◀◀). You see the problem?

 

[_wb_]

Update:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59eda9567897c5910ed05bb99f763c4f

 

[Glyph Reader]

Update:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59eda9567897c5910ed05bb99f763c4f

For some reason, this one feels clean.  Well, at least to me. 

-Glyph Reader

 

[comradekingu]

Shift is always shoulder for international users on my layout. If shift on shoulder doesnt work, that means having shouldershift in the first place is a flawed concept.

In the end i gave up on trying to semi-please +1 +2.  Normal/english/coding layout loses nothing, and all international users have to use shouldershift. Easy and much more fair than what is alternatively on the table.

 

[WizardStan]

It's almost there. I did a couple more swaps that are (to me) more pleasing: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8292b5a1f6368891643ec0875c8ceb82

Tab back where it was in the first examples, tab on the left just "feels" better, even in the corner there, and actually being on a corner makes it both simpler to hit and less likely to be accidentally hit, and similarly "/' on the right "feels" better and I think easier to mentally map, even though it violates the "one glyph per key" rule. Accepting this minor violation also means you can stick one more thing under meta-tab.

I swapped Del with Ins, the idea being that backspace and del serve similar functions so I can mentally attach them easily. The Pandora was supposed to have this functionality but I don't think it ever got completed. And insert as its own key makes ctrl-ins combinations easier. Although that does make ctrl-del harder... hmph.

Maybe there's a way to put del and ins on one key together instead. Del and meta-Del=ins.

 

[comradekingu]

You also changed the play and next. Ideally they are on the same two R1 R2, since then they can stick out of your pocket and you have access to them. Thats what i thought when i implemented it at least.

Stop and previous you dont need that much, one of which needs to be on the left.  What is the rationale for that change? If you want the extra key for something, make it L1 instead. Then the right side is kept intact.

 

[rygD]

It's almost there. I did a couple more swaps that are (to me) more pleasing: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8292b5a1f6368891643ec0875c8ceb82


Tab back where it was in the first examples, tab on the left just "feels" better, even in the corner there, and actually being on a corner makes it both simpler to hit and less likely to be accidentally hit, and similarly "/' on the right "feels" better and I think easier to mentally map, even though it violates the "one glyph per key" rule. Accepting this minor violation also means you can stick one more thing under meta-tab.


I swapped Del with Ins, the idea being that backspace and del serve similar functions so I can mentally attach them easily. The Pandora was supposed to have this functionality but I don't think it ever got completed. And insert as its own key makes ctrl-ins combinations easier. Although that does make ctrl-del harder... hmph.


Maybe there's a way to put del and ins on one key together instead. Del and meta-Del=ins.

Did you move /?  I would like to get that and another useful character on the right as well and move ` and ~ to meta for other keys.  I think the average person will use those less than other characters.  Am I forgetting something like a compose function or other method of using them for non-English?  I like | in place of those, but ? could also work.

 

[WizardStan]

Did you move /?

That's Meta-A. It should be easy to hit. I do it all the time on my Pandora and that is thumb typing: with meta on a trigger it should be even easier.

move ` and ~ to meta for other keys

Maybe put "' down, move `~ over to the lower left corner and make Tab the meta for that lower left key? That would free up the main of the F11 key for... something.
The only other thing I might do is move the trigger meta to R1 or R2, that way there's some balance with a meta key easily accessible by either the right finger or the left thumb. As it currently is, two metas for one hand is too much.

edit: ah, _wb_'s last keyboard puts `~ into the lower left corner. Good, glad I'm not the only one who thinks that's a good idea. Ooo, and "meta" in the middle, yeah, that works well I think. Make "tab" as meta-~ and figure out what to put in its place and it's got my vote for sure.

 

[rygD]

Did you move /?

That's Meta-A. It should be easy to hit. I do it all the time on my Pandora and that is thumb typing: with meta on a trigger it should be even easier.

Maybe I am confused.  I thought you wanted / on the right based on:

"/' on the right "feels" better and I think easier to mentally map

If you meant left I understand, I do the same.  Sorry for my confusion.

Maybe put "' down, move `~ over to the lower left corner and make Tab the meta for that lower left key? That would free up the main of the F11 key for... something.

Another free key for something useful is always good.  Will "Something" fit on the tiny key caps?

 

[WizardStan]

Maybe I am confused.  I thought you wanted / on the right based on:

Sorry, I realized after the fact that my terminology was confusing. I was using / to mean "and", as in this slash that. When I said "/' I meant "The " and ' key"Talking about characters while actually trying to use those characters is hard. :wacko:

 

[Saber]

-_-  

 

[rygD]

Maybe I am confused.  I thought you wanted / on the right based on:

Sorry, I realized after the fact that my terminology was confusing. I was using / to mean "and", as in this slash that. When I said "/' I meant "The " and ' key"
Talking about characters while actually trying to use those characters is hard. :wacko:

Ha, that makes it even more amusing.  Yeah, I prefer those on the right.  Maybe we can put slash (/) on the right, where it often is.

 

[Saber]

B)