Silent-Hunter
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That is an excellent idea!
As for the shoulder buttons clicking, I think that could be a good idea too, but we'd need to test it.
Explaining keyboard layout proposals. Fn hotkeys updated, language switching, powertoggles etc
- Thread starter comradekingu
- Start date
As for the shoulder buttons clicking, I think that could be a good idea too, but we'd need to test it.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Super+power is non-standard. Holding the powerbutton for 8 seconds should be a hard reboot if anything. Because that has been a thing ever since the AT-standard with non-impulse switch powerbuttons vanished. We are talking decades.
Producing different keymats is not a good reason to have the default not make sense for international users. It also means you cant use all the languages you know on one, whereas on the other you have to put up with foreign symbols almost just as much. Sure there are 80 million germans, but they are far outnumbered by international users who dont use äöü and compose on +4. Which leaves you back at square 1 for most people, a best effort multiple layout international default. International users never asked for perfect, and if they do, they need to be 500 strong. A good reason to ship a full layout standard is that if so, you can ship a cluster of 4 buttons to these people, and not a whole keymat. As for the numbers row, you are still as unable to make 10 buttons into 13.
Even if you produce two incompatible layouts as keymats, it lowers the resell-value if you want to sell your english-only unit.
Just like the initial sale-value the non-standard reduced layout is lower for international users.
Producing multiple keymats is more expensive, and creates more trouble on the software side. With incompatible ones worst case you get also in software the situation non-latin people face on the keyboard. Trying to input their D and instead typing A.
The closest thing reduced layout is to being centred, is being geocentric in a heliocentric world.
Producing different keymats is not a good reason to have the default not make sense for international users. It also means you cant use all the languages you know on one, whereas on the other you have to put up with foreign symbols almost just as much. Sure there are 80 million germans, but they are far outnumbered by international users who dont use äöü and compose on +4. Which leaves you back at square 1 for most people, a best effort multiple layout international default. International users never asked for perfect, and if they do, they need to be 500 strong. A good reason to ship a full layout standard is that if so, you can ship a cluster of 4 buttons to these people, and not a whole keymat. As for the numbers row, you are still as unable to make 10 buttons into 13.
Even if you produce two incompatible layouts as keymats, it lowers the resell-value if you want to sell your english-only unit.
Just like the initial sale-value the non-standard reduced layout is lower for international users.
Producing multiple keymats is more expensive, and creates more trouble on the software side. With incompatible ones worst case you get also in software the situation non-latin people face on the keyboard. Trying to input their D and instead typing A.
The closest thing reduced layout is to being centred, is being geocentric in a heliocentric world.
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Silent-Hunter
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Super+Power for SysRq may not be standard, but the Pyra isn't a standard device. In order to use SysRq on the Pyra it CAN'T be on ANY letter key. So Power is the best place to put it.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
This discussion is kind of irrelevant to the keyboard layout, because sysrq wont be marked anywhere anyhow. I imagined printscreen to be on the top ABXY+2 button and Ins to be the bottom one. I see thats the same button on the keyboard, would that work for you (and everyone else)? I dont want a screencapture dialoge to pop up every single time the button is pressed and the user environment is for example pantheon. Similarly having a button combo that is hard shutdown should never even be remotely possible to accidentally press. I guess being able to plug in a real 105-key via usb and the fact that these buttons are software controlled solves the issue insofar as this thread goes.
I wouldnt want to have - and + only available there like wb imagines, because if they aren't also on the keyboard, it isn't apparent that you should look for them up there. But for the case of argument, the whole marking of the ABXY+2 is a different discussion. Dedicated - is nice. But i use printscreen and insert too from time to time.
How do the different layouts fare for you? There hasnt been that much feedback on mine yet, any thoughts? Edit: I updated firstpost.
I wouldnt want to have - and + only available there like wb imagines, because if they aren't also on the keyboard, it isn't apparent that you should look for them up there. But for the case of argument, the whole marking of the ABXY+2 is a different discussion. Dedicated - is nice. But i use printscreen and insert too from time to time.
How do the different layouts fare for you? There hasnt been that much feedback on mine yet, any thoughts? Edit: I updated firstpost.
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Saber
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Missed your post.
What I said about remapping the (I) action button in my layout to Print Screen would also work for SysRq. Just change the (I) action button or the Compose key to plain vanilla SysRq. Then all you need to do for Magic SysRq low-level commands is I assume an Alt key, like the one on the shoulder or the Start button, and one of the numbers or alphabeticals on the keyboard.
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It's confusing to have two Meta's that behave differently.
As to being more or less international-friendly, the main difference between comradekingu's layout and mine is what we have on P+2 and L+2, and how we deal with AltGr.
I don't have AltGr, meaning that anyone who is used to AltGr can use one of the two Alt keys (R2 or START) as AltGr and use any AltGr combination. Comradekingu uses AltGr on the number row, so you can't use AltGr+number rows unless you move things around. On the other hand, you have three Alt keys in comradekingu's layout (L2, R2 and START), so you can have both Alt and AltGr on a shoulder button, at the price of having no Meta shoulder button (but Meta is only used for F-keys, so if you don't need those often, it's a good trade-off).
I have Del, Enter on P+2 and /?, Shift on L+2. Comradekingu currently has [{, ]} on P+2 and <>\, Shift on L+2.
Comradekingu's Enter key is in a slightly strange place (bottom right), where I have Meta. Comradekingu has only one Meta key, at the Pyra button.
Comradekingu's concept is that [{]}><\ are not needed in natural language, so you can use those keys for language-specific letters without really losing anything.
My concept is that Del, Enter, /? are useful enough to deserve a dedicated primary key in a good spot, but they can be dropped or moved if needed.
We both agree that the Shift key is needed but can be safely used for other purposes.
The Delete key is missing from many keyboard (e.g. the Pandora, Apple keyboards, etc), so it is a key you can replace by Ü or Å or whatever.
The Enter key is obviously necessary, and if you want to use my Enter key for e.g. a Faroese Đ, you can do that, but then you have to move Enter to where my Meta is (which is where it is to begin with in comradekingu's layout). Many international layouts don't specifically require that key position though.
The /? key is also necessary, but it could be made a Meta-key instead of a primary key, at the same location. That way the label is still correct, just in the wrong color.
Comradekingu has dedicated primary keys for [, ], and < at P+2 and L+1. Those keys are not very important. This is intentional: he wants to put keys there that can be missed. That is a valid approach, but I prefer to put keys there that are more useful.
My P+1 and L+2 keys can be used without really having to move anything. This covers already a lot of international layouts:
Czech (ú ů plus number row), Danish (Å Æ Ø), Dutch (umlaut/circumflex acute/grave), French/Belgian (circumflex/umlaut M ù plus number row), German (Ü Ö Ä), Italian (èé òç àù), Norwegian (Å Ø Æ), Polish (óź Ł ęą), Portuguese (acute/grave Ç tilde/circumflex), Spanish/Mexican (grave/circumflex Ñ acute/umlaut), Swedish (Å Ö Ä).
The extra P+2 key is useful for a few more:
Estonian (Ü Õ Ö Ä), Faroese (Å Æ Ø Đ)
And of course there are layouts that need quite a bit more than just 4 extra keys, e.g.:
Balkan (Š Đ Č Ć Ž plus 12 diacritics), Hungarian (Ö Ü Ó Ő Ú É Á Ű plus 12 diacritics)
Saber
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Maybe and maybe not, and you're right it is a curiosity from what's anticipated, but it is only the gaming part of the device the Left Meta has no modification influence over which is the Dpad, Nubs, Start, Select, and six action buttons. It's bending the rule book, whatever that is, a tad but if it works so we can put another Meta(Fn) on a shoulder button, then it's a relatively insignificant trade-off.
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Glyph Reader
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Glyph and klapse: The majority of voters in the last thread were interested. Its about what is possible, on the pandora it just wasnt doable because i lacked keys. On the pyra it is. There is no use raising an issue if its not broken in a way that can be fixed. Some hacked layouts and software keymap-sets exist for the pandora even if it fails positioning.
Doublespace is an obvious flaw that can easily be fixed. Everyone who isnt English or American cares about international layout. And people who are English and code care about the standard placement of [ ] in the +4 of the UK/US layout.
WB and others trying to figure out what the difference is:
I use altGr+ number row for number row symbols because thats where they are meant to be. Using a unmarked second Alt to do the same doesn't change that at all. Blind-typing altGr is not less confusing. There is still no 13 keys on number row, so you are missing out on important ones instead of getting a selection of the ones you need. And by all means, tell me why that selection isnt good, or change it. Its the same selection of keys that wb has put across the rest of his keyboard, only with meta modifier. I find this to be visually disturbing, and it takes away from learning to type letters, and makes finding symbols harder because the area it could be in is increased.
This method of input is valid if you want to increase the text on the buttons, because 2 imprints is larger than 3. But on his later layout wb has 3 prints on the numberrow, and also some long text things like caps lock.
I think if its going to be 2-per key on the whole typewriter-part, it should be the same way around on the rest of the keyboard. But a lot of keys are lost to mediacontrols.
The dead-key system on wblayout is essentially the same as US international layout. See here. They use AltGr as the start of the combo and have no AltGr in the traditional sense. Granted, they have no dead-key letters in the third position then, but wb does. Which leaves him to have the same 4 levels of modifications, but one that is only used to invoke dead-keys. (L1+L2) (same as my meta) On US international its possible to go Ctrl+Alt instead of AltGr, so wblayout isnt that different. But if L1+L2 is shift and meta then you cant differentiate at all between the imprints on a key.
Which leaves me wondering why ring above asterisk symbol * is duplicated from 8 to Z with ˚ This and others are foreign symbol on the keyboard, so if it has to use Ctrl+alt as modifier, i dont know if that breaks anything.
It is arguably easier to type € and £ since it is marked. On mine its the standard altGr+E £ should be altGr+3 and ¥ is altgr+6 which creates a problem for the latter 2. I think printing currency symbols other than $ which is used for coding is ugly, and it falls a bit to the rule of foreign symbols. € is standard, but if £¥ has to be worked in non-standard they are not only blind, but also non-standard. Will check it out though. (There is an open spot on altGr+4 on my layout if you want to put in something)
The important thing is that if you use wbs shoulder'alt for AltGr you end up having no shoulder-alt. We both have shift, so the rest is either Alt AltGr or ctrl, or Alt, Meta Ctrl This is because there are 4 shoulders. I skipped on having shoulder-meta, but then again i'm only using meta for F-keys, and it makes it possible to have mediakeys on shoulders as meta+shoulder, and dead-key accentuation. Which you need less of when you have +4, which i also do. My layout follows standards as closely as possible, while making it harder to type F-keys.
F* on my layout is bottom column-key+letter on QWERTY row. On wblayout its shoulder+key-letter on QWERTY row.
The fundamental difference between my layout and wblayout is that there is no recursive remapping going on if you switch layout. Yes, {[ ]}\ isnt needed in natural language, but it doesnt make them unimportant. They are important for coding, so that is what they cater to, coders. The full US and UK layout has [ ] on +4, and thus they are expected there, following up with the other brackets is only a continuation of that.
Wb has del on +4 which isnt a huge issue, but he also has ? There is no language that doesnt need ?, so you end up having to remap that if you want to switch language, instead of just switching language.
This means if you use both, keys arent always in the same place. Like for example the mediabuttons. If you want to use shoulders, it takes longer getting used to, because when the lid isnt closed wblayout has mediabuttons on the keyboard instead.
Doublespace is an obvious flaw that can easily be fixed. Everyone who isnt English or American cares about international layout. And people who are English and code care about the standard placement of [ ] in the +4 of the UK/US layout.
WB and others trying to figure out what the difference is:
I use altGr+ number row for number row symbols because thats where they are meant to be. Using a unmarked second Alt to do the same doesn't change that at all. Blind-typing altGr is not less confusing. There is still no 13 keys on number row, so you are missing out on important ones instead of getting a selection of the ones you need. And by all means, tell me why that selection isnt good, or change it. Its the same selection of keys that wb has put across the rest of his keyboard, only with meta modifier. I find this to be visually disturbing, and it takes away from learning to type letters, and makes finding symbols harder because the area it could be in is increased.
This method of input is valid if you want to increase the text on the buttons, because 2 imprints is larger than 3. But on his later layout wb has 3 prints on the numberrow, and also some long text things like caps lock.
I think if its going to be 2-per key on the whole typewriter-part, it should be the same way around on the rest of the keyboard. But a lot of keys are lost to mediacontrols.
The dead-key system on wblayout is essentially the same as US international layout. See here. They use AltGr as the start of the combo and have no AltGr in the traditional sense. Granted, they have no dead-key letters in the third position then, but wb does. Which leaves him to have the same 4 levels of modifications, but one that is only used to invoke dead-keys. (L1+L2) (same as my meta) On US international its possible to go Ctrl+Alt instead of AltGr, so wblayout isnt that different. But if L1+L2 is shift and meta then you cant differentiate at all between the imprints on a key.
Which leaves me wondering why ring above asterisk symbol * is duplicated from 8 to Z with ˚ This and others are foreign symbol on the keyboard, so if it has to use Ctrl+alt as modifier, i dont know if that breaks anything.
It is arguably easier to type € and £ since it is marked. On mine its the standard altGr+E £ should be altGr+3 and ¥ is altgr+6 which creates a problem for the latter 2. I think printing currency symbols other than $ which is used for coding is ugly, and it falls a bit to the rule of foreign symbols. € is standard, but if £¥ has to be worked in non-standard they are not only blind, but also non-standard. Will check it out though. (There is an open spot on altGr+4 on my layout if you want to put in something)
The important thing is that if you use wbs shoulder'alt for AltGr you end up having no shoulder-alt. We both have shift, so the rest is either Alt AltGr or ctrl, or Alt, Meta Ctrl This is because there are 4 shoulders. I skipped on having shoulder-meta, but then again i'm only using meta for F-keys, and it makes it possible to have mediakeys on shoulders as meta+shoulder, and dead-key accentuation. Which you need less of when you have +4, which i also do. My layout follows standards as closely as possible, while making it harder to type F-keys.
F* on my layout is bottom column-key+letter on QWERTY row. On wblayout its shoulder+key-letter on QWERTY row.
The fundamental difference between my layout and wblayout is that there is no recursive remapping going on if you switch layout. Yes, {[ ]}\ isnt needed in natural language, but it doesnt make them unimportant. They are important for coding, so that is what they cater to, coders. The full US and UK layout has [ ] on +4, and thus they are expected there, following up with the other brackets is only a continuation of that.
Wb has del on +4 which isnt a huge issue, but he also has ? There is no language that doesnt need ?, so you end up having to remap that if you want to switch language, instead of just switching language.
This means if you use both, keys arent always in the same place. Like for example the mediabuttons. If you want to use shoulders, it takes longer getting used to, because when the lid isnt closed wblayout has mediabuttons on the keyboard instead.
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No, people are not really happy with the Pandora layout. If you have to make 5 thumb presses just to get a letter of your alphabet that is needed three times per sentence on average, then you're not really happy. Even for English, the Pandora layout is weird, with its idiosyncratic placement of the symbols (e.g. non-standard shift+number row).
There's certainly room for improvement.
If important things are put on Meta+[game buttons], but only accessible with shoulder button Meta, then basically you can't map the keyboard Meta to anything else anymore. I imagine that some people may want to use keyboard Meta and Shift for other things (e.g. Compose, AltGr, a dedicated key for ¥, whatever), which is possible only if the shoulder Shift and Meta are enough.
Printscreen on an action button? I wouldn't do that. It means you can't make screenshots of games that use those buttons.
Also, from an æsthetical point of view, "Print Screen" and "Insert" are very ugly, asymmetrical, and non-logical labels for game buttons. It looks very ad-hoc to me.
Here's my feedback on your proposal:
No Meta shoulder button and also no Meta in the easy-to-reach corners of the main keyboard means that F-keys and dead key diacritics are considerably more effort to produce (two thumb presses instead of one).
Having two different kinds of extra labels (beyond "normal" and "shifted") is confusing.
You have no labels at all on the 6 action buttons. Is your proposal to have no labels, or are you just keeping that out of this discussion? If it's the latter, then fine. If it's the former, I think that's a bad idea. I think the ABXY keys (or ΠΩχΔ keys, whatever) should be labeled in some way with their function (Home/End/PgDn/PgUp); full names probably take too much space but icons are OK. The two extra keys should certainly be labeled.
The comma - space - dot configuration is an interesting idea, but I think a more standard comma - dot - space order is still better. Yes, every comma is followed by a space, but so is the end of every word. By putting space closer to the edge, it becomes easier to find it.
Dedicated primary keys for [, ], < may be a good idea for those who want to map those keys to something else anyway (e.g. Ü Ä Ö), but for others there are more important keys to have. Even for coding, having < and > on their standard locations and having a dedicated primary key for / would be better.
Delete is not in a very comfortable spot.
In standard QWERTY, shift-comma is <, shift-period is >, shift-slash is ?. Your proposal deviates from that just to make the L+1 key less important.
Media keys on the shoulder buttons are nice, but how do you produce, say, Shift-F5 in your layout if L+2 is mapped to, say, Ä?
Also, in my proposal, you could use Pyra(Super) + shoulder buttons as media keys, if you want.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Having 3 layers of modifiers is the standard. Confusing one with meta is what makes it confusing.
I added "troublesome F-keying" to the bad section of my proposal. A way to solve it would be to implement the Ctrl+Alt of us international that is called AltGr but really isnt as an alternative to meta+dead key. It would be the metaAltGr that only otakus and dutch people know about.
Ctrl+alt isnt AltGr on my keyboard, nor is it dead-key. I dont know if its anything else, but its worth exploring. Can one have ctrl+alt be the altGr or Us international if one already has altGr as 3rd level modifier? Isnt that what you are doing with L1+L2 ? Would that stop working if you used one of your alts as altGr? http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/
Ins and printscreen are just as non-labled as the pageUp. There wasnt any other non-obtrusive place to put printScr, so the alternative is not being able to printscreen any games.
They are just ideas. Insert top and - bottom is probably the best thing i can think of that doesnt fail. I consider writing printScr on the keymat ugly.
I never knew about ctrl shoulders and pageup down on the pandora anyway, so i dont care. You decide what works. If that is some hidden functionality that even the fairly advanced dont need, then sure. If thats convention, even better, we can leave it out of the layout labeling concern. I care about not losing anyone on the idea of a usable keyboard that is easy to grasp. As long as there isnt any caveats that might trigger unwanted functionality for anyone anywhere i stop caring.
No meta on shoulder button also means that you can use meta+ Dpad or Meta+ABXY or Meta+shoulders (mediabuttons) without invoking it during play. This is a huge deal for me, because thats where i intend to implement nifty alt+tab menu button and such functionality. After we can test what makes sense of course.
Being fully free in this respect is better than to later discover that super+up actually was meant to or did something in one desktop environment or the other. Not that i have super anyway, but we are then free to make sensible default choices that never backfire.
I am just keeping ABXY labels out of the discussion, because if you try to make it a value thing, it becomes heated fast. My div root hype proposal i dont think was all that popular. Also we dont know what colours are available, which is another heated argument. Because even if it makes sense if you get into it. It looks like a toy from afar if ABXY+2 is 6 different colours.
Also im liking that the typewriter part is the full layout. You and me think its a welcoming thing that we can alternate between abxy and keypad to get more keys, to others its not self-explanatory, nor particularly sleek.
If pgup phdown home and end is on abxy, printscreen up and insert down isnt that far-fetched. If it doesnt work - down certainly seems nice. + up im not so sure about. It would have to be marked - and + then. Hoping for greater value here.
Meanwhile one key does one thing is nice and simple, albeit i have no dedicated -
"instead of one" isnt actually true, its two instead of one and a shoulder. Dead key swipe combos from meta→567 is arguably simpler for those. I agree on meta+ / and things like that. But in the end there is less use for dead-keys because there is +4.
If you find space once you have 'found space' Shift on QWERTY row isnt exactly standard either if you think about it. Nor is finding space on the right to begin with.
The end of every word is exactly why space shouldnt be less centrally located imo. I see your point, but its dubious. Efficiency always wins.
A case could be made for something that looks a lot like a 105-key, kinda like saber went with in his reduced english slalom-layout. Notably that makes it function a lot less like a 105key than one who looks like it was made to be a mobile keyboard.
I see the initial benefit, but its a false preposition. The explanation i have under "full layout, coding cluster and punctuation" is literally everything a novice needs to become you and me at slalom-type. Lets test it and see if we would switch enter and shift and then decide what works and doesnt. The F-keys is the same for both, but i cant tell someone with a straight face that F11 and F12 isnt on the same row as the rest, when the F-row isnt even at the F-row to begin with... Oh, you have a quirky hackjob of a layout/keyboard is my first reaction to things like that, because you imediatly see the problem rather than be able to accept it.
Unless you are comboing F-keys with delete i dont see whats so bad about the position of delete. Its not used all that often. I assume here that emacs-people are few and far between, and that those same people can hack together something.
Delete up there with escape is what is best for all, and it prevents accidental delete or escape anything, which is the more common issue you run into if its on the typewriter part.
, ; < . : > is not standard QWERTY. It is a standard, but not _the_ standard. I consider 105key to be more of a full keyboard than 104key. http://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_ISO
Which puts <> on its own key lower left next to shift. For coding that is better, and I did compromise in making the default better at coding, and the alternative good for international. Its the international coders that have to swap back and forth, not English users. Do one thing, do it well. Its a hack, but its a good one.
Yes it differs from US standard, but in a way that makes sense. Because all brackets are close to shift. The / is more important than <> and / is now where it should be for UK/US also | / is in the right order for germans.
In my head | / \ should be close by, and brackets should be close by. If i could do exactly what i wanted i would run {[ )> on P+2
}] )] on L+2 and have | / \ back at the number row, or if more buttons were available, at 105key.
Putting . : and , ; on the same key is also not US or UK standard, but it makes so much sense i would still do it even if it weren't the standard anywhere else.
Shift+F5 is shift+meta+T Dont understand what it has to do with L+2... I think you mean
Shift+F12 shift+meta+(P→2) (P→2 is the key that says ]}f12 )
It is the direct press that is mapped to ä for germans, losing ]. Meta+(P→2) is always F12 There is no AltGr+ (P→2) printed, since it would exceed the 3 per key rule. First position shift, second normalclick, third meta and altGr.
The only reason meta is needed is because we don't have an F-row. I don't use it for any other standard functionality. Pressing F-keys on my layout isnt possible if you have one hand, then you need to put it on a table. But pressing all F-keys with one hand isnt fully possible on any of the layouts.
I am pretty sure super+ctrl super+shift and super+alt actually does something in various desktop environments. Im hearing a lot of "you could" and seeing notsomuch of sensible defaults where "you could" applies.
I added "troublesome F-keying" to the bad section of my proposal. A way to solve it would be to implement the Ctrl+Alt of us international that is called AltGr but really isnt as an alternative to meta+dead key. It would be the metaAltGr that only otakus and dutch people know about.
Ctrl+alt isnt AltGr on my keyboard, nor is it dead-key. I dont know if its anything else, but its worth exploring. Can one have ctrl+alt be the altGr or Us international if one already has altGr as 3rd level modifier? Isnt that what you are doing with L1+L2 ? Would that stop working if you used one of your alts as altGr? http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/
Ins and printscreen are just as non-labled as the pageUp. There wasnt any other non-obtrusive place to put printScr, so the alternative is not being able to printscreen any games.
They are just ideas. Insert top and - bottom is probably the best thing i can think of that doesnt fail. I consider writing printScr on the keymat ugly.
I never knew about ctrl shoulders and pageup down on the pandora anyway, so i dont care. You decide what works. If that is some hidden functionality that even the fairly advanced dont need, then sure. If thats convention, even better, we can leave it out of the layout labeling concern. I care about not losing anyone on the idea of a usable keyboard that is easy to grasp. As long as there isnt any caveats that might trigger unwanted functionality for anyone anywhere i stop caring.
No meta on shoulder button also means that you can use meta+ Dpad or Meta+ABXY or Meta+shoulders (mediabuttons) without invoking it during play. This is a huge deal for me, because thats where i intend to implement nifty alt+tab menu button and such functionality. After we can test what makes sense of course.
Being fully free in this respect is better than to later discover that super+up actually was meant to or did something in one desktop environment or the other. Not that i have super anyway, but we are then free to make sensible default choices that never backfire.
I am just keeping ABXY labels out of the discussion, because if you try to make it a value thing, it becomes heated fast. My div root hype proposal i dont think was all that popular. Also we dont know what colours are available, which is another heated argument. Because even if it makes sense if you get into it. It looks like a toy from afar if ABXY+2 is 6 different colours.
Also im liking that the typewriter part is the full layout. You and me think its a welcoming thing that we can alternate between abxy and keypad to get more keys, to others its not self-explanatory, nor particularly sleek.
If pgup phdown home and end is on abxy, printscreen up and insert down isnt that far-fetched. If it doesnt work - down certainly seems nice. + up im not so sure about. It would have to be marked - and + then. Hoping for greater value here.
Meanwhile one key does one thing is nice and simple, albeit i have no dedicated -
"instead of one" isnt actually true, its two instead of one and a shoulder. Dead key swipe combos from meta→567 is arguably simpler for those. I agree on meta+ / and things like that. But in the end there is less use for dead-keys because there is +4.
If you find space once you have 'found space' Shift on QWERTY row isnt exactly standard either if you think about it. Nor is finding space on the right to begin with.
The end of every word is exactly why space shouldnt be less centrally located imo. I see your point, but its dubious. Efficiency always wins.
A case could be made for something that looks a lot like a 105-key, kinda like saber went with in his reduced english slalom-layout. Notably that makes it function a lot less like a 105key than one who looks like it was made to be a mobile keyboard.
I see the initial benefit, but its a false preposition. The explanation i have under "full layout, coding cluster and punctuation" is literally everything a novice needs to become you and me at slalom-type. Lets test it and see if we would switch enter and shift and then decide what works and doesnt. The F-keys is the same for both, but i cant tell someone with a straight face that F11 and F12 isnt on the same row as the rest, when the F-row isnt even at the F-row to begin with... Oh, you have a quirky hackjob of a layout/keyboard is my first reaction to things like that, because you imediatly see the problem rather than be able to accept it.
Unless you are comboing F-keys with delete i dont see whats so bad about the position of delete. Its not used all that often. I assume here that emacs-people are few and far between, and that those same people can hack together something.
Delete up there with escape is what is best for all, and it prevents accidental delete or escape anything, which is the more common issue you run into if its on the typewriter part.
, ; < . : > is not standard QWERTY. It is a standard, but not _the_ standard. I consider 105key to be more of a full keyboard than 104key. http://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_ISO
Which puts <> on its own key lower left next to shift. For coding that is better, and I did compromise in making the default better at coding, and the alternative good for international. Its the international coders that have to swap back and forth, not English users. Do one thing, do it well. Its a hack, but its a good one.
Yes it differs from US standard, but in a way that makes sense. Because all brackets are close to shift. The / is more important than <> and / is now where it should be for UK/US also | / is in the right order for germans.
In my head | / \ should be close by, and brackets should be close by. If i could do exactly what i wanted i would run {[ )> on P+2
}] )] on L+2 and have | / \ back at the number row, or if more buttons were available, at 105key.
Putting . : and , ; on the same key is also not US or UK standard, but it makes so much sense i would still do it even if it weren't the standard anywhere else.
Shift+F5 is shift+meta+T Dont understand what it has to do with L+2... I think you mean
Shift+F12 shift+meta+(P→2) (P→2 is the key that says ]}f12 )
It is the direct press that is mapped to ä for germans, losing ]. Meta+(P→2) is always F12 There is no AltGr+ (P→2) printed, since it would exceed the 3 per key rule. First position shift, second normalclick, third meta and altGr.
The only reason meta is needed is because we don't have an F-row. I don't use it for any other standard functionality. Pressing F-keys on my layout isnt possible if you have one hand, then you need to put it on a table. But pressing all F-keys with one hand isnt fully possible on any of the layouts.
I am pretty sure super+ctrl super+shift and super+alt actually does something in various desktop environments. Im hearing a lot of "you could" and seeing notsomuch of sensible defaults where "you could" applies.
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I'm from the UK, I don't really speak much of any other language, but I'm interested in having an international layout. The majority of people in this community don't use English as their first language, and those people should be able to speak in their native language. I think it's more a case of the "same 3 or 4 people" on this thread being interested and capable in coming up with solutions, rather than it reflecting the number of people interested in an international layout
.
Comradekingu, would you like my layout more if it would look like this?
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/baab885b6950114324dc3525a3969ad8
Now it has a dedicated Compose key and a dedicated AltGr key, for those who want to use those. All of the AltGr combinations are still available.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/baab885b6950114324dc3525a3969ad8
Now it has a dedicated Compose key and a dedicated AltGr key, for those who want to use those. All of the AltGr combinations are still available.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
It is a jack of all trades, master of none. If you have an altGr you dont need the meta.
I think a meta only on F-row and letters make sense . Because Global 2per-key makes sense to make imprints bigger than they would be with 3perkey. I dont know which one you get the most value on.
So its QWERTY with Fs in the shiftposition
Numbers are regular and shift, letters have symbols in second position on the key, but meta to invoke.
So basically move third level from the number row down to bottom row. Get rid of mediabuttons and the caps-lock printScr type printing.
This, which wouldnt save because of an error.
Edit: Here we go http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/306b72c0fbe4357b73da236ae985b0ae
If ctrl+alt is dead-key the ' on P+1 isnt needed. Also i think if leftclick and group doesnt work on leftnub, having leftclick on the right isnt a intuitive goto.
Edit2: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8d65c310899e4b3c2589854e120c80ff makes a little bit overall sense, but the arrangement needs work.
I realize having right-tab makes sense if you are running dpad with your left looking for lines to indent or backspace.
Unless you can press tab with the meat of the thumb at lower left while having the top joint on dpad. I can do the equivalent on the pandora, but its very dubious.
I think a meta only on F-row and letters make sense . Because Global 2per-key makes sense to make imprints bigger than they would be with 3perkey. I dont know which one you get the most value on.
So its QWERTY with Fs in the shiftposition
Numbers are regular and shift, letters have symbols in second position on the key, but meta to invoke.
So basically move third level from the number row down to bottom row. Get rid of mediabuttons and the caps-lock printScr type printing.
This, which wouldnt save because of an error.
Edit: Here we go http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/306b72c0fbe4357b73da236ae985b0ae
If ctrl+alt is dead-key the ' on P+1 isnt needed. Also i think if leftclick and group doesnt work on leftnub, having leftclick on the right isnt a intuitive goto.
Edit2: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8d65c310899e4b3c2589854e120c80ff makes a little bit overall sense, but the arrangement needs work.
I realize having right-tab makes sense if you are running dpad with your left looking for lines to indent or backspace.
Unless you can press tab with the meat of the thumb at lower left while having the top joint on dpad. I can do the equivalent on the pandora, but its very dubious.
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Saber
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I don't understand what you mean by "only accessible with shoulder button Meta". How I have it in my layout is Shoulder Meta is given only a limited reduction in what it can modify. For example, the Dpad, Nubs, Start, Select, and ABXY I, II action buttons do not get altered by Shoulder Meta but, in my proposal, the Dpad Up and Down though is modified solely by Keyboard Meta for brightness leveling which I find instinctively simple to do. Both Metas though can modify all the keyboard keys.
You can still map Yen or whatever to Shoulder Meta + Dpad if you need to, but I don't think it wise as this could introduce conflicts in gameplay mapping:
Shoulder Meta + Dpad Up = Shoulder Meta AND Dpad Up.
or as you suggested people would do after a remap,
Shoulder Meta + Dpad Up = Yen.
It's not that people don't have the right to speak or type in their native tongue, but it does have to do with choosing a set keymap that is less of a compromise to most. Not all will be completely happy with the decision nor should they rationally expect to be. Some may need Å and others may need Ç. Everyone here will get shortchanged no matter which layout we choose to make fit, but the modifiers, much of the punctuation, and most of what is considered the modern alphabet before we add any local vowels/lettering will be intact.I'm from the UK, I don't really speak much of any other language, but I'm interested in having an international layout. The majority of people in this community don't use English as their first language, and those people should be able to speak in their native language. I think it's more a case of the "same 3 or 4 people" on this thread being interested and capable in coming up with solutions, rather than it reflecting the number of people interested in an international layout
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Please explain what part of making your layout different is better to people who only speak english. Rationally, if you pay 700€ for a device, you should expect it to please you.
This is how it works, if you roll reduced language layout you shouldn't expect to sell it to anyone but people who only speak English and are ok with less money for their device when they sell it.
And why would we not strive to please the most people the best we can? This is a value in itself, and not something that speaks for screwing someone over, again with respect to the point above.
If you want Å you get Å at P+2, if you are azerbajani you get Ç. Ed has already stated that there should be no foreign letters on the keyboard, nobody is arguing for it.
(edit: i see you are arguing against yourself, as you are the only one shipping foreign symbols and letters on the keyboard. Can I suggest looking at a German keyboard layout to at least get the arrangement right?)
I consider my alphabet to be a full alphabet, so does the majority of the people in the world. I consider a full keyboard to be either ANSI, ISO or JIT. Even for english your argument makes no sense, English uses far more phonetical letters than is typed. Stop pushing it on others.
Maybe you will be right about a standard alphabet consisting of 26 letters in the far distant future, you are _at least_ halfway fully wrong now, any way you look at it. Its not the right you are denying people, its the ability. Bear in mind people have the related ability to not purchase things that don't suit them.
What makes the modern way of the Latin alphabet modern is that they change it a lot. Other languages dont do this at the frequency English does.
This is how it works, if you roll reduced language layout you shouldn't expect to sell it to anyone but people who only speak English and are ok with less money for their device when they sell it.
And why would we not strive to please the most people the best we can? This is a value in itself, and not something that speaks for screwing someone over, again with respect to the point above.
If you want Å you get Å at P+2, if you are azerbajani you get Ç. Ed has already stated that there should be no foreign letters on the keyboard, nobody is arguing for it.
(edit: i see you are arguing against yourself, as you are the only one shipping foreign symbols and letters on the keyboard. Can I suggest looking at a German keyboard layout to at least get the arrangement right?)
I consider my alphabet to be a full alphabet, so does the majority of the people in the world. I consider a full keyboard to be either ANSI, ISO or JIT. Even for english your argument makes no sense, English uses far more phonetical letters than is typed. Stop pushing it on others.
Maybe you will be right about a standard alphabet consisting of 26 letters in the far distant future, you are _at least_ halfway fully wrong now, any way you look at it. Its not the right you are denying people, its the ability. Bear in mind people have the related ability to not purchase things that don't suit them.
What makes the modern way of the Latin alphabet modern is that they change it a lot. Other languages dont do this at the frequency English does.
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Saber
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Read toward the bottom of this post to see what EvilDragon wants on the Pyra: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15403-pyra-keyboard-layout-requirement-analysis/?p=306354/URL]
I'm not pushing anything on anybody. They will choose whatever layout they want, but as they are only representing the nation of just themselves, they can only hope other individuals on the short list who buy a Pyra feel the same as they do about it.
As for people "expecting it to please them" because they paid over 500-600+ Euro, it will never be able to do so. It'll come close but it may also require obvious customizing. Even the so-called international layouts, fall short of the full-size ones in their placements which will require some moderate remapping and shuffling of keys to be truer to form.
Also, so we are clear, my layout has all the keys ED wanted(which I don't need myself), but I worked it out so these keys are all off to the right of the board for easy remapping. It is afterall completely intentional that in my layout ä is placed where it is as I know from reading the posts of others on this board that they'll be replacing it with å. For you Comradekingu if this is your native layout, it would be about three keys to remap: å, ø, and æ(or hit Compose then oa, /o or ae).
Let's just wait and see how the unofficial vote goes.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Im specifically asking you.
The post you linked to is from January this year.
Ed has recently said this and this and this is how final they keyboard layout is now. Two shifts make sense if , and . on the left does. It also makes sense if you have no shouldershift. I dont think 4 shoulders was even planned back then. Lets say ED meant anything non-german when he said foreign. Ok, then you have english and something that vaguely resembles a german layout.
Everyone elses +4 options then become remapping your non-standard placed, non-standard arrangement +4 non-direct keys, to their liking. I clearly see how that is worse for anyone not english, but not why english is better because of it. Its the inclusion of +4 in a natural place we are talking about here, that is the alternative. A viable one from the layout-proposals given. Do correct us if we are wrong.
If I understand you correctly you generally want something that resembles a 105-key layout, but doesn't work as well as one that doesn't?
I dont know if its even possible to 10-finger type on the pyra with the wider keys, but im guessing no. As someone who doesn't like the Pandora layout for reasons given, your layout isn't worth much to me.
64 keys being less than 86, or 105 is true for any layout, no matter what choices you make. What im saying is that a full layout is good for most people, whereas a reduced layout is only good for english-speaking ones. It fails for the other half right off the bat because english has the least amount of letter-keys on their layout.
What part of only catering to the English makes it acceptable to actively refuse to cater to anyone else? I understand it on the Pandora, I don't understand it on the pyras amount of keys.
The international users are paying just as much as English ones. A true 105-key form sucks for 2-finger typing. You want to trick people into buying into your layout only later to realize it doesn't work for English nor international users? At the time of writing your second post proposal still has , . on the left, and enter space on the right.
Also, make a layout on the keyboard-layout tool. Your layout looks nice and clean if its divided in 3 parts, nosomuch if its all in one like the final will be. Please make choices of where to put the imprints on the keys, because this is needed for direct comparison.
Ed said:
(kl. 10.32 +0200) ed_pyra: Yes, but I won't check them out before I'm back home next week
So the deadline is next week.
before changing nick and saying:
(kl. 10.38 +0200) Pyra_GamesCom: layout look wired imho.
To which i can only agree. It does look a bit strange, so strange i would never consider anything else before truly trying to optimize everything.
Ed said this about double-space and seemingly never considered the rationale of not having one till I pitched the idea. A lot of the things on the pandora layout are ill deviced, even for its amount of keys. And some combos are downright broken. Back in the day the community alternative pandora layouts werent much better, but we have shown that full layouts have support for the pyra.
The post you linked to is from January this year.
Ed has recently said this and this and this is how final they keyboard layout is now. Two shifts make sense if , and . on the left does. It also makes sense if you have no shouldershift. I dont think 4 shoulders was even planned back then. Lets say ED meant anything non-german when he said foreign. Ok, then you have english and something that vaguely resembles a german layout.
Everyone elses +4 options then become remapping your non-standard placed, non-standard arrangement +4 non-direct keys, to their liking. I clearly see how that is worse for anyone not english, but not why english is better because of it. Its the inclusion of +4 in a natural place we are talking about here, that is the alternative. A viable one from the layout-proposals given. Do correct us if we are wrong.
If I understand you correctly you generally want something that resembles a 105-key layout, but doesn't work as well as one that doesn't?
I dont know if its even possible to 10-finger type on the pyra with the wider keys, but im guessing no. As someone who doesn't like the Pandora layout for reasons given, your layout isn't worth much to me.
64 keys being less than 86, or 105 is true for any layout, no matter what choices you make. What im saying is that a full layout is good for most people, whereas a reduced layout is only good for english-speaking ones. It fails for the other half right off the bat because english has the least amount of letter-keys on their layout.
What part of only catering to the English makes it acceptable to actively refuse to cater to anyone else? I understand it on the Pandora, I don't understand it on the pyras amount of keys.
The international users are paying just as much as English ones. A true 105-key form sucks for 2-finger typing. You want to trick people into buying into your layout only later to realize it doesn't work for English nor international users? At the time of writing your second post proposal still has , . on the left, and enter space on the right.
Also, make a layout on the keyboard-layout tool. Your layout looks nice and clean if its divided in 3 parts, nosomuch if its all in one like the final will be. Please make choices of where to put the imprints on the keys, because this is needed for direct comparison.
Ed said:
(kl. 10.32 +0200) ed_pyra: Yes, but I won't check them out before I'm back home next week
So the deadline is next week.
before changing nick and saying:
(kl. 10.38 +0200) Pyra_GamesCom: layout look wired imho.
To which i can only agree. It does look a bit strange, so strange i would never consider anything else before truly trying to optimize everything.
Ed said this about double-space and seemingly never considered the rationale of not having one till I pitched the idea. A lot of the things on the pandora layout are ill deviced, even for its amount of keys. And some combos are downright broken. Back in the day the community alternative pandora layouts werent much better, but we have shown that full layouts have support for the pyra.
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Grench
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Where is the unofficial vote being held? I didn't see a thread for that...
I know this sounds culturally insensitive, but...
International layouts are great - so long as they're kept out of the way.
Let me explain before the pitchforks and torches come out.
The English/US QWERTY keyboard's letters are somewhat unique in that they're nearly all used in not only English but every other language that uses Latin characters. It makes up the overlap set of nearly every European language.
Many languages require additional characters to fill out their alphabet, but they are characters that only appear in one or 'few' other language's alphabets. Those characters should be on a modifier-key combination and not used as a primary key mapping.
So, yes, accommodate additional languages as well as possible. But please leave the keyboard English only at it's top layer?
Thank you.
