Explaining keyboard layout proposals. Fn hotkeys updated, language switching, powertoggles etc

[comradekingu]

I think right or left weight isn't the issue, I think its the polarity.

We have to pay attention to that input per minute isnt a fixed rate, it is considerably lessened by jumping through hurdles, even if you get good at that sort of thing.

If your left thumb is locked up at far left, that is never good.

The most used chars are to the left on QWERTY, which we have to use, so it makes sense to have punctuation on the right. Back in the day when you had to lift off right hand to slam the typewriter back in place this made sense, allthough i dont know if thats why. This loss of type-time is comparable to every time you need to move your thumb. On a desktop keyboard everything is minimal movement away, and its divided by ten. We cant hide this issue when we have 2 thumbs worth of input, each moving much more in the horizontal field than the vertical one.

QWERTY is notoriously left-right shifting single words, because it has no common use clusters, it isn't made to be good, it has considerations for not locking up mechanical typewriters. The reasons other layouts prove better is mainly due to the exact same reason having ,. on one side, and shift enter space on the other is bad. Small combos that you can pull off in one sweep, and central placement of the stuff you use the most.

The frequency at which the right hand is drawn right to do punctuation on pyra and pandora is every time you press space. Making the button longer doesn't help.

Farthest left isn't good. That is why I went with a more central placement.

Here is the reason why having all punctuation on left makes sense,  if your right hand is there anyway, it makes no sense to also tie up the left hand at far left.

Additionally, combos are easier because you don't have to shift focus visually and motorically. Not only more efficient, but also more intuitive for a new user.

For times where you apply learnt behaviour, shoulder-shift is always more effective, which I tried to prove in the other thread. Slalom-typing is not good.

If I got to chose I would put all language input punctuation on shoulders and add another row to the keyboard. Then i would divide the keyboard in two parts and have a row of control keys in the middle.

It would be not easy to pick up, it would require big hands, and if I could also mess up pocket-ability i would make it 3d-ergonomic. Tl;dr on this last part is that inputting language by pressing buttons with hands is pretty arbitrary, and skills arent easily acquired or translated to something that works well for a handheld thing.

Ergonomically a thing you type on the back of, while you watch the front is great. It could even be efficient. But sadly thats where it stays. Changing input conventions is famously difficult. If we want to enable typing with shoulderbuttons it cant be a basic requirement. People wont even consider trying it then.

 

[Saber]

I think right or left weight isnt the issue, i think its the polarity. If your left thumb is locked up at far left, that is never good.

From what I remember, ED said the nubs can mostly either be moved around or they can be center clicked, but become limited if you try to do both with one. If the left nub's center is left mouse click then you'd have a more difficult time using it in those two ways at the same moment which is why the far less often used, by most, right mouse click should be left nub's center and right nub's center should be left click. Oh I know it's opposite to what it seems it should be, but it works better that way.

 

[comradekingu]

Well you could use both for movement, so that one takes precedence over the other, untill you are centered and where you want to be.

The pandora way isnt bad either. You can still do scroll up down then, which is the way it is needed.

If we dont assume anything about how well clicking the nubs work, that is still viable.  Also it means you can use one of the nubclicks as middleclick, thats handy for opening links in newtab.

And the other nubclick + forwards and backwards is forwards and backwards in the webbrowser.

"no i cant use this" is a common followup from "woah, magnets"  It cant be like giving someone who has no experience the controls of an aircraft mid air. Has to be doable for a novice.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

If there are extra keys with no meta function, could SysRq have its own key? That way I wouldn't have to hold down five things at once to get the functions of it.

 

[Saber]

If there are extra keys with no meta function, could SysRq have its own key? That way I wouldn't have to hold down five things at once to get the functions of it.

Certain as the sun Silent-Hunter. You could remap several keys in the layouts to make Print Screen(same as SysRq) a dedicated key. On my particular layout, the action button with Insert assigned to it, (I), could be reassigned to Print Screen for Magic SysRq(hold Ctrl with Alt and Print Screen) commands. The Compose key could also be remapped if you like.   

 

[Silent-Hunter]

I would like it to be a separate button from Print Screen. Like if Print Screen is Meta + J then SysRq should be Meta + H.

 

[_wb_]

I would like it to be a separate button from Print Screen. Like if Print Screen is Meta + J then SysRq should be Meta + H.

That could be done in my layout -- Meta+H is still available.

However, since Magic SysRq is used as a modifier key (you have to press it in conjunction with a letter key to do something), I now think it is better to put it on a non-letter key (otherwise one Magic SysRq combination is impossible).

It makes sense to put it on the POWER button. A normal press of the POWER button will still do what you expect: if it's off, it boots; if it's on, you get a shutdown menu. If you press it together with the Pyra button (i.e. Super+POWER), you get a hard reboot.

Alt+POWER is Magic SysRq, e.g. L2+POWER+{REISUB}.

• We could have other combinations: Shift+POWER = soft reboot, Ctrl+POWER = shutdown (immediately, without dialog).

The nub behavior is maybe something for another thread? One option would be to make it so that shoulder buttons are {left, right, middle, double} click when you press and release them within 200ms without pressing any other key in between. It can be a modifier and a click.

 

[_wb_]

I take it you don't like my layout as much as yours then?

I could live with all the layouts proposed in this thread. The best ideas have become non-controversial and we have all used them. But obviously I like my own proposal best .

I don't think it wise to use hardware keys for normal keyboard keys. In my opinion, they are not reserved for regular keys like Escape or Menu because we needed to find places for them. I also do not like that you have all four of the hardware toggles grouped on only one key. :blink:

Fine. Can I be a bit nasty and rephrase your opinion as "we have plenty of keys, so we should waste four of them on dedicated hardware toggles"?

Also, I don't know why you're comparing a full size keyboard with a handheld keyboard. Yes, if we are talking about where you're index fingers set down, both a Pyra centered and off-centered layout are not exactly comparable to a full computer keyboard but anyone can see that the letter Q is farther to the left to the edge in your layout than in mine, correct? If one were to hold a Pyra in their hands and hover their thumbs until they touch over the midpoint of the handheld, they would have an equal amount of twelve total keys if counting from that center spot to the left or to the right. Now if said person were to note the keys being passed over, for your layout's Q-P row from the midpoint to the left then to right, it would go something like this:


Q, W, E, R, T, Y  <<<<< middle >>>>> U,I,O,P, Delete, Enter


in your uncentered layout.


For my "centered" layout it would look like this:


Tab, Q, W, E, R, T <<<<< middle >>>>> Y, U, I, O, P, Enter


I like the balanced one myself and my thumbs probably do to.


Furthermore, maybe it's the wording people are hung up on when they cry foul, so let's call it " the reduce thumb fatigue by evenly distributing the same number of letters from the center of the keyboard to either side layout" rather than centered layout.

You do know that in many languages, the letters Q, Z and X are used about one order of magnitude less frequently than the other letters?


Also, on a thumb keyboard, the keys in the center actually take more thumb effort to reach than the keys at the edge. There's a reason why we don't put the action buttons in a 'central location' between the nubs


I have not seen any compelling evidence that a centered QWERTY row causes less thumb fatigue than a layout like mine and comradekingu's.


If you can produce keystroke frequency statistics that prove that your layout causes less thumb travel or has a better left thumb - right thumb balance, then I will take this argument seriously. I have presented an argument pointing in the other direction: the space key, which is responsible for 15-20% of the keystrokes in many use cases, is on the right causing a right thumb bias that should be compensated for.

About what the face buttons should be called. 


We could make the same argument for the ABXY butttons not being labeled PU, PD, Ho, En for Page UP/Down, Home, or End, but I think people in general will remember (I) and (II) are Insert and Delete without much effort: pic.

I want the ABXY buttons to be labeled with icons (or text, if it fits) for Home/End ⇤ ⇥ and for Page Up/Down ⇞ ⇟. I think it's a bad idea to have a default layout that requires users to remember or guess things.


The action buttons are not aligned in the same shape as a standard Ins-Del-Home-End-PgUp-PgDn group on a standard full keyboard (in my opinion, we make more sense, because Home/End are mostly a horizontal thing). Also, I'm not sure if you can assume that everyone is familiar with standard full keyboards. People grow up with laptops, tablets, smartphones, and Apple stuff nowadays. They may not even know that a keyboard is supposed to have Insert and Delete keys, let alone where to expect them to be located.

For the coloring, it wouldn't shock me if ED went with a dark reddish tone for the case as standard. Whatever color he chooses, I always liked the blue color they decided on for the Pandora's Fn keys and punctuation.

If the case itself has a non greyscale color, then I suggest to use the same color for the Meta labels (at least the same hue, but probably brighter for better visibility).

 

[Saber]

^ We all have our opinions and I could say I disagree with some of yours to ad nauseam and we could banter back and forth on the merits of each layout, and come up with "proof" on why the other is wrong and such, but it doesn't really matter if I convince you or not, does it now?

Minor update on Print Screen and such in my layout(changed 2nd post here to to reflect it).

 

[Saber]

Now that I have pondered enough on it, what do you guys think of the Escape key moving to where the PYRA key is, and moving PYRA to where I have Compose? Is it too drastic a change to have PYRA(Super) down with the rest of the keyboard next to Space(and Menu) and Escape above the keypad? As I said before, emulators(and apps) tend to use Escape to exit out of them, so I don't see how it would be detrimental when all the PYRA button is good for(we no longer have a sliding Power button to combo it with remember) is to just open up the Start Menu.

BTW, the Escape key would retain the PYRA logo, but the moved "PYRA" key would be called Super, which is what it is/will be anyways.

 

[comradekingu]

Escape needs to be a direct key, which in turn means it has to be in a place where it cant be accidentally pressed. Had to bite the bullet and divide the powercluster on my layout to finally get escape and delete.

Also the column-key are too precious button-estate to use on escape imo.

Super, for things one uses super for, has a bit to do with navigation. When you are doing that you have shoulders and nubs gripped. Also, Xfce doesnt use super by default

A dedicated compose is a bit of a misnormer, because the layouts that need a compose, have a dedicated one.

Using altGr as compose, or something similar in functionality, is only used in the netherlands, where they mostly use US international layout.

With no exceptions, typing anything else than english doesnt work without a full layout.  The dutch also expect dedicated compose.

What happens if you use altGr for compose is you have no third layer modifier, which means printing arbitrary third-layer labels on letters. (shift is the second level mod on letters aAaA)

I really think any confusion should be contained to the number row.

Move compose and meta from the right hand side and swap them with , and . on the left. That way you solve the slalom-typing.

In addition to the esc del powercluster change im contemplating

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1ac885766269ac36cafe844120abe3e8    into

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a15825c2cdbd56aae99d2450da166c11

to give international users / and |   you have to be very advanced to need [] {} \ <> for anything other than coding.

So it becomes standard/coding/english as default   and   international/no-code/everything else than english   when you swap +4

Its almost exactly what ive had once before, only that <> is also \   instead of     <>|

/ is no longer a direct key, but   | / \  are all altGr combos.  The inconsistency is that <> brackets are now not on two keys, like ( )  [ ] and { }  but <> is the 105-key, which makes a lot more sense than the US standard

;  ,  <    : .  >

 

[_wb_]

^ We all have our opinions and I could say I disagree with some of yours to ad nauseam and we could banter back and forth on the merits of each layout, and come up with "proof" on why the other is wrong and such, but it doesn't really matter if I convince you or not, does it now?

Some things are a matter of opinion and taste. Like what our favorite colors are. Other things are a matter of facts and truth.

You claimed that your layout is good for "evenly shared left and right thumb alphabetical input" and to "reduce thumb fatigue by evenly distributing the same number of letters from the center of the keyboard to either side".

I disputed that claim.

The claim is not a matter of opinion or taste. It is a matter of keyboard usage statistics, ergonomy, efficiency, optimization. It's a claim that is either true or false, or maybe something in between depending on how things are defined exactly, but it's a pretty strong claim so I think you should back it up with some pretty strong evidence.

According to this source, English text consists of 19.2% spaces (and 10.4% E's, 7.3% T's, 6.5% A's, 6.0% O's, 5.6% N's, 5.5% I's, 5.2% S's, 5.0% R's, 4.9 H's, 3.5% D's, 3.3% L's, 2.3% U's, 2.0% F's, 2% M's, 1.6% G's, 1.5% Y's, 1.4% P's, 1.2% B's, 0.14% X's, 0.09% Q's, 0.08% Z's)

On a normal keyboard, the space bar can be used by either hand. On the Pandora/Pyra, it can only be used by the right thumb. Almost 20% of the characters, right thumb only. That makes a much bigger difference than having Y G and B somewhat to the left instead of somewhat to the right, which is basically the difference between our two layouts. Together, Y G and B represent only 4.3% of all characters.

Now I admit that there are arguments in favor of adding a little bit of bias to the right, since QWERTY is somewhat left-biased to start with, at least for English -- E,T,A being the top-3 letters (after space). 20% may be too much though.

And what about non-English? Many international QWERTY-based keyboards have extra keys like Ü Ä Ö at the right. They are typically quite important letters (otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to add dedicated keys for them). How is the balance of your proposal for people who want to type with such a layout? Actually they can't even use their keyboard layout, since your layout does not have room on the right.

 

[Saber]

^ We all have our opinions and I could say I disagree with some of yours to ad nauseam and we could banter back and forth on the merits of each layout, and come up with "proof" on why the other is wrong and such, but it doesn't really matter if I convince you or not, does it now?

Some things are a matter of opinion and taste. Like what our favorite colors are. Other things are a matter of facts and truth.

You claimed that your layout is good for "evenly shared left and right thumb alphabetical input" and to "reduce thumb fatigue by evenly distributing the same number of letters from the center of the keyboard to either side".

I disputed that claim.

The claim is not a matter of opinion or taste. It is a matter of keyboard usage statistics, ergonomy, efficiency, optimization. It's a claim that is either true or false, or maybe something in between depending on how things are defined exactly, but it's a pretty strong claim so I think you should back it up with some pretty strong evidence.

According to this source, English text consists of 19.2% spaces (and 10.4% E's, 7.3% T's, 6.5% A's, 6.0% O's, 5.6% N's, 5.5% I's, 5.2% S's, 5.0% R's, 4.9 H's, 3.5% D's, 3.3% L's, 2.3% U's, 2.0% F's, 2% M's, 1.6% G's, 1.5% Y's, 1.4% P's, 1.2% B's, 0.14% X's, 0.09% Q's, 0.08% Z's)

On a normal keyboard, the space bar can be used by either hand. On the Pandora/Pyra, it can only be used by the right thumb. Almost 20% of the characters, right thumb only. That makes a much bigger difference than having Y G and B somewhat to the left instead of somewhat to the right, which is basically the difference between our two layouts. Together, Y G and B represent only 4.3% of all characters.

Now I admit that there are arguments in favor of adding a little bit of bias to the right, since QWERTY is somewhat left-biased to start with, at least for English -- E,T,A being the top-3 letters (after space). 20% may be too much though.

And what about non-English? Many international QWERTY-based keyboards have extra keys like Ü Ä Ö at the right. They are typically quite important letters (otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to add dedicated keys for them). How is the balance of your proposal for people who want to type with such a layout? Actually they can't even use their keyboard layout, since your layout does not have room on the right.

Yes, yes that's all very nice _wb_.

Escape needs to be a direct key, which in turn means it has to be in a place where it cant be accidentally pressed. Had to bite the bullet and divide the powercluster on my layout to finally get escape and delete.

Also the column-key are too precious button-estate to use on escape imo.

Super, for things one uses super for, has a bit to do with navigation. When you are doing that you have shoulders and nubs gripped. Also, Xfce doesnt use super by default

A dedicated compose is a bit of a misnormer, because the layouts that need a compose, have a dedicated one.

Using altGr as compose, or something similar in functionality, is only used in the netherlands, where they mostly use US international layout.

With no exceptions, typing anything else than english doesnt work without a full layout.  The dutch also expect dedicated compose.

What happens if you use altGr for compose is you have no third layer modifier, which means printing arbitrary third-layer labels on letters. (shift is the second level mod on letters aAaA)

I really think any confusion should be contained to the number row.

Move compose and meta from the right hand side and swap them with , and . on the left. That way you solve the slalom-typing.

Like this:

http://i.imgur.com/b2h14iC.png

***I placed Super down in the bottom left for illustration purposes. It could be any number of keys, but I still think the Escape key should be where the PYRA key is. It's out of the way but nearby as well.

Fixed how the Print Screen trio are accessed. ^_^

 

[comradekingu]

I can see that "centered" reduced layout makes sense in a compulsive thoughts-perspective. But its really only for half the western population. Even worse if you count in others, because it means the full layout extends off the side.

If however the layout is entered with respect to English, why is punctuation divided?

When is it you type , or .   and haven't got the need to type space or enter? The answer is never.     We cant have punctuation centered middle, so every time you want to type space, you have to tie up one thumb to the side.

Same goes for every single time you want to type dot or comma.

That is half the input tied up into somewhere it shouldnt ever be, it should always be equidistant from all letters on its side, which is to say the sweetspot for your thumb is in the middle of the left and middle of the right.

What dividing , . on one side, and enter and space on the other, is tying both thumbs into somewhere they shouldnt be _at the same time_  when it could have been a combo on one of them?

With QWERTY english the answer of what hand to pick for punctuation is given, it has to be the right one. Because most sentences start at the left side. (The one side that isnt now tied up with typing . or ,)

Its even the standard to have , and . on the right.    An English-only layout that fails for English people benefits nobody.

Edit: Yes, fantastic.  Now move shift too.

I expect ctrl lower left, not comp.   Also

         0     Backspace

           p     shift

         l      enter

m      ,   space   .

Is a lot more efficient on two-thumbs because     , space       . space       and     . enter    are swipe-combos.

You get additionally     . enter   shift        but you have to  traverse enter to get     .  space  shift

 

[Saber]

I can see that "centered" reduced layout makes sense in a compulsive thoughts-perspective. But its really only for half the western population. Even worse if you count in others, because it means the full layout extends off the side.

If however the layout is entered with respect to English, why is punctuation divided?

When is it you type , or .   and haven't got the need to type space or enter? The answer is never.     We cant have punctuation centered middle, so every time you want to type space, you have to tie up one thumb to the side.

Same goes for every single time you want to type dot or comma.

That is half the input tied up into somewhere it shouldnt ever be, it should always be equidistant from all letters on its side, which is to say the sweetspot for your thumb is in the middle of the left and middle of the right.

What dividing , . on one side, and enter and space on the other, is tying both thumbs into somewhere they shouldnt be _at the same time_  when it could have been a combo on one of them?

With QWERTY english the answer of what hand to pick for punctuation is given, it has to be the right one. Because most sentences start at the left side. (The one side that isnt now tied up with typing . or ,)

Its even the standard to have , and . on the right.    An English-only layout that fails for English people benefits nobody.

Edit: Yes, fantastic.  Now move shift too.

I expect ctrl lower left, not comp.   Also

         0     Backspace

           p     shift

         l      enter

m      ,   space   .

Is a lot more efficient on two-thumbs because     , space       . space       and     . enter    are swipe-combos.

You get additionally     . enter   shift        but you have to  traverse enter to get     .  space  shift

Hmm, I don't know about moving Meta to the left side or adding a third Ctrl. Breaking up comma and period for a minor reduction in travel seems off also. Space and Enter could switch places though, and Left Shift could move down to the lower left corner.

It doesn't have my "official" endorsement even with those changes. It's good on it's own as is, but my second post proposal is better.

 

[_wb_]

Here is a "centered" variant of my proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/025b124e76c89f200d78d1415d4baed5

My main proposal is still the non-centered one, but if there's a poll, this one could also be an option.

For me personally, it does not matter much: I don't intend to remap, so I'm not going to put Ü Ä Ö or anything like that at the P+1, L+2 positions. My main proposal is more remapper-friendly, but the "centered" variant also has a few nice properties:

- Tab in its normal spot

- QWE row and 123 row are correctly aligned w.r.t. one another

- Insert is now at Meta+Delete and it's an easy swipe, making Ctrl-Insert, Shift-Insert easier

 

[comradekingu]

Saber, i made your proposal into a http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ba300749ccffaeae26bb91a9c956fd3e

You havent updated secondpost, it still has , . on the left. There is nothing good about that. The reason why its bad you can read above. Feel free to cook up an explanation of why that makes sense if you intend to keep it. This thread is called "Explaining keyboard layout proposals"

You both have foreign symbols on the keyboard.

Having standard placement of direct input of öäü on a keyboard isn't for Germans considered remapping, its called a keyboard. Switching to German layout is called swapping layout.  The only reason it supposedly has anything to do with remapping is because on wbs full-keyboard proposal you have to recursively remap keys to achieve it.  Typing with blind +4 works, its done in many regions of the world. Remapping isnt quite the same, that requires some skills.  And i cant imagine what part of the keyboard proposal that looks more alluring to a user *just* because they can remap.   In actual fact its the other way around, you are swapping anyway, and forced to remap.  Its a comparativly harder sell even going in, because it requires skills, and it is further limiting because it makes the layout look ill-deviced for the people who do it. 50% at the very least, (if you dont put up more unnecessary hurdles.)  Is no small number. Limiting people and saying its results are ok because you never considered a better option is inherently circular flawed reasoning.

Saying to half the market for the pyra that they cant have their layout because it extends off the keyboard is also not a good reason to consider the matter settled, its only way worse. We already saw the input on the vote.

In that same thread you can see what the different layouts are for each country.

And this is a pandora forum, there would be more international users here if the pandora didnt have a reduced layout. Which makes it even more stark a message. A clear majority of international sentiment on what is a English-bias selection base.

And nobody is trying to just side with majority to ruin the day for English people, far from it. English people are not encumbered by having a full layout, less so actually, but for international users its the difference between considering buying something, and straight off the bat discarding it.  I am trying to include, and a reduced layout _actively_ excludes.

This is probably the reason why there were even English speaking people who voted +3.  More sales is better for all.

The pyra being good enough in other ways to still warrant an international customer base _is not_ a good reason to fail at making them able to type their language on the keyboard. That is beside the point, and it doesn't even serve the argument...

The amount of non-english people that use dead-key exclusively for all input is far far less than whoever isn't included by +4. I don't even know about any. The dutch being the only ones to use US international (and not even all of them do) still have dedicated compose in +4.

And yet somehow not being able to incorporate beyond +4 was cited as a good reason not to give anyone a true +4 layout. (one that doesn't need additional remapping by the people who swap to it, like figuring out where to place enter)  If you need more than +4 you live somewhere that isn't a traditionally strong market for the pandora, even adjusted for the anglo-bias, whereas if you need +4 you are for example German. _The manufacturing and sales of the pyra.

If you _are_ someone who needs more than +4, having less than +4 to work with makes it worse, not better. +4 is better for all, with what we have, untill you go beyond that. And only then does it not make sense to give everyone an equally sensible default.

We aren't able to accommodate +4 without hacks because there just aren't enough keys to not make that suck for 90+ % of the market who are content with true +4, not because we need anglo-centered reduced layouts.

Making a +4 is possible without ruining the day for anyone compared to what the default English standard is.  Reduced layout is equally ok for 50% but sucks vacuum for the other half.

But it isnt actually equal, brackets in a traditionally more sound place for english people make more sense, not less.

But if you do want to make a limit, make it a good one. English layouts that don't make sense for typing the English language, international layouts that aren't good for people who aren't English. Come on.

 

[Saber]

Saber, i made your proposal into a http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ba300749ccffaeae26bb91a9c956fd3e

You havent updated secondpost, it still has , . on the left. There is nothing good about that. The reason why its bad you can read above. Feel free to cook up an explanation of why that makes sense if you intend to keep it.

Thank you but that isn't my proposal. It's just some creative thinking to test some boundaries. You're more than welcome to convert any layouts of mine to that keyboard layout editor format, but for any official ones I do, I'd like to keep them as I've always done them(for now).

Updated my unofficial layout again:

http://i.imgur.com/4qm0fF3.png

Still feeling the urge, for those here with larger thumbs, to swap Enter and Space positions though. <_<

 

[_wb_]

Perhaps it is a good idea to produce different keymats after all.

If you're used to an actual German keyboard:

then the labels of any of the above layout proposals are still quite far away from what it should be.

So maybe ED should make a real German keymat, perhaps something like this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/53ca112c163bbd564174628e64ecf2ca

in addition to a generic centered QWERTY layout (e.g. this one: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/025b124e76c89f200d78d1415d4baed5)

and a generic non-centered QWERTY layout (e.g. this one: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8ffc6d83b0a6d4a1f345e609e980beb7).

That way everyone can get something they like.

 

[Saber]

Here is a "centered" variant of my proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/025b124e76c89f200d78d1415d4baed5

My main proposal is still the non-centered one, but if there's a poll, this one could also be an option.

For me personally, it does not matter much: I don't intend to remap, so I'm not going to put Ü Ä Ö or anything like that at the P+1, L+2 positions. My main proposal is more remapper-friendly, but the "centered" variant also has a few nice properties:

- Tab in its normal spot

- QWE row and 123 row are correctly aligned w.r.t. one another

- Insert is now at Meta+Delete and it's an easy swipe, making Ctrl-Insert, Shift-Insert easier

It's good(so is your other one), but if I can suggest...

Change (+) and (-) to Insert and Delete as default and put + and - symbols under Meta.


Move Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause/Break each one key to the left in order to fit Pipe under Meta + l(Pipe even looks like the letter so bonus).


Occupy Meta + Space with whatever you want(Key Backlighting, Context Menu, etc.).


We could also do Meta + (Y) and (X) for Display Brightness and Meta + (B ) for Key Backlighting.

***When I say Meta, I'm talking about the Meta on the keyboard not the shoulder Meta.