Explaining keyboard layout proposals. Fn hotkeys updated, language switching, powertoggles etc

[LEOXD]

Reminding you of previous discussions:

Can this be documented in (preferably) ASCII easily (W, M, E (Σ), reverse E (∃); v<>^)?
Is action button v<>^ distinct enough from digipad v<>^?
Does this work without colors?
Are primary/secondary buttons clear enough?

 

[comradekingu]

From wbs poll, plaintext wasnt the biggest deal. But even in the most plaintext of plaintext, you could write WM3E for  v^<> so its nice to have those people on board too.

D-pad directions has always been arrows ↓→← which you can write as "down" "right" "left" i dont see a problem here, i never heard about anyone mistaking the buttoncluster keys for a b x y on the keyboard.  v ^ < > makes it even more obvious that it isnt to be found there.  You learn it, you know it.

It still takes me a few seconds to remember where abxy is on snes, and the colours, and thats 20 years of exposure.

Its engrained just enough to almost work, and still mess me up when im using gp2x layout, or dreamcast controller.

The shapes work without colours, but colours adds something for those who recognize that first, which is most people. The colour is also used sparingly, to fit those who want it to look "more professional", and it at the same time differentiates a ^ from a W.

The primaries are blue and green, i always thought primary was a function of position rather than via name or colour, you can always make it more obvious.

As long as red and delete isnt v or > its fine.

Saber: The snes colours, in full colour round pattern, is a nintendo trademark, so that is off limits.

 

[bzar]

you could write WM3E for v^<>

Wouldn't that be MW3E?

Also to differentiate from keyboard keys, one should probably do something like (M) (W) (3) (E)

 

[_wb_]

One problem with WM3E is that they're identical up to rotation. That is of course nice from an æsthetic point of view, but it has some downsides for e.g. dyslectic people, and it makes it harder to use the button symbols in a non-perfectly-horizontal context.

Also, color is probably going to add an extra cost that is not worth it. You pay per color, so if we can use only two colors (one for main labels, one for Fn/Meta labels), it will be a lot cheaper than if we have to use six colors.

 

[Kev2442]

I finally took some time to register, just to say the following :

- The F-ING button should be renamed. It's kinda obvious people will instead say [CENSORED].

Maybe "Fun" works ? I think such a name is pretty neat, like "Hey, I pressed the Fun button !", and it clearly stands for Function.

- I'd really like a combo key for quickly writing the corresponding button name for the gaming layout.

That way, we could just press F-ING + Σ for example, and it would instantly write the Sigma symbol.

This could also work for △, ⌂ or ⎇. It would be quite useful when writing keyboard layouts while programming softwares or games.

 

[comradekingu]

B-zar: Yes, i was looking at that when i wrote it thinking something was wrong, and i was sure it had to be the 3 or the E since those are the more difficult ones.

_wb_ Maybe i am the the odd one out in that respect, at least im not dyseclectic.

Unless we can quantify how much more expensive additional colours is i dont think it should be written off. I think it is a welcomed addition, and it offers something for those whom latin letters and direction isn't primary or problematic. Which is most people/dyslectics and especially 30% in the second case.

The expletive nature of inserting something where it doesnt really belong is what F-ING does. Lets think of the tourettes, they are all covered.

I dont belive in dictating speech, since that means dictating people. Pyra sounds best in my ears, since that is also the case for other people i can accept them saying it differently.

F-ING is the preferred choice of F-ers, be it eloquent or mundane. It also populates the board with new members.

In norway we have a place called tulinåsen, a new name, where an art exhibition is housed, we, as in norwegians, call it tullingåsen "the walley of people who are numbheads", which works for us. And the artsy-flattulosos get to have their more pretentious name.

 

[rygD]

The F-ING button should be renamed. It's kinda obvious people will instead say [CENSORED].

That is the best part about that name.  If a layout containing it was used I have no doubts it would be renamed.  I can only hope we will be lucky enough to get a key labeled "Any".

Pyra sounds best in my ears, since that is also the case for other people i can accept them saying it differently.

I can't hear how you say it.

F-ING is the preferred choice of F-ers, be it eloquent or mundane.

 

 

[comradekingu]

Took me forever to find this, this is how it is in my head, a kind of "beyond tourettes", looking for something to complete the combo, gets me every time

A sort of novia scotia/jersia new york italian being begrudged by having to jump through hoops to type F-keys.

Louie ck is on opie & anthony remembering patrice o'neal, and he really gets on the trashtalk

He comes in 2.01.30, but here is the first clip

http://youtu.be/YDDORBJ-sps?t=1h24m30s 

http://youtu.be/YDDORBJ-sps?t=1h38m30s really laying into him

http://youtu.be/YDDORBJ-sps?t=2h40m50s heating up and getting into the groove

http://youtu.be/YDDORBJ-sps?t=2h48m10s the guy makes the mistake answering the call and gets buttmad

Edit: Nice, someone made a synopsis

https://www.youtube.com/embed/bFaKwNx_6dc?feature=oembed

 

[comradekingu]

The bigger nubs have been ordered, which solidifies the decision to have one button each for select /ctrl and start / alt

Writing out "select" on a button when you also have to put ctrl in some form on the same button is a lesser variant of the compromized ideal accepted elsewhere.

                              o

So im thinking → o / △                          and             o / ⎇

                              o

Edit: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b40ae69db7fc3213e80e7ddd98d68dfc

Maybe the other way around, with ctrl and alt first?

Edit2: Pondering the idea of how "o" doesnt really signify start alone, im back to http://boards.openpandora.org/uploads/post-2326-0-76729800-1411753245.png

Where it is a runner starting off the starter-block.

I think what made it weird is the select / ctrl and start / alt sequencing, rather than ctrl / select and alt / start

Weirdness 2, just going to have to accept that altGr is an arrow pointing to the left, in a sense that is the alternate right

 

[rygD]

Looking at those I feel like I don't know what the symbols are intended to convey.  I am sure others will be confused upon seeing those and trying to just play some games.  Is there a major reason you are avoiding something like "Start/Alt" and "Sel/Ctrl"?  They can possibly be done in different colors.  We have them on the Pandora and they look like they fit on keys that are about the size of those expected for the Pyra.  Assuming there will be a loss of some surface area due to the design of the keyboard and the keycaps they can probably be printed in a smaller size, or abbreviated further than what I said, to something more like "St/Alt" and "Sel/Ctl".  I don't think that will cause any more problems than your F11 and F12 keys, and maybe the entire number row.

In case my point is overlooked, keep it simple for those whose main interest is games.  That is also a valid reason for Start and Select to be the first labels, especially since they are in the game control section of the keyboard.

 

[comradekingu]

Lets assume each alphanumeric represents the same amount of visual info. With each button being of limited space, the only option to go beyond the default size per alphanumeric is to reduce their size, allowing more to be crammed in.
 
That looks ugly. To illustrate:

To have an even size, you have to put the cap somewhere. Made worse by the buttons having less Y axis this time around.
So putting two chars atop each-other is a straight no-no.

As we see on the pandora keyboard, 3 letters wide isnt the problem. Shiney key reflection and low contrast colours are. I can see letter in pos 1 and 2, the blue on nr3, not so much. On the pandora keyboard that is a mixed blessing. No i cant see them, but then again they are also out of the way of being noticed in places where they dont belong.
 
F11 and F12 on my design are the ugliest buttons, but they make sense in the greater perspective. They do stand out with their colour, which is the same on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0 so it does convey the idea of purple=f-keys, thus is purple 1 the F1. Not that i wouldnt have done it if it was just F1 to F10 to incorporate, but not having to print F F F F all over the place is a huge saving. 
The most i've spent is 5 chars on F-ING, but its most significant attribute is that of being a purple coloured button when all other keyboard buttons are black/white, so we can pardon its verbosity. It could be a plain purple, but i find F-ING to be the emphasis needed to get the point across, it never gets old! 
 
Sel/Ctl is still 7 chars, and it (atleast initially,) seems hacky, because its so obviously sub-optimal.  
 
Coming back to see the last version of the design time and time again i dont feel the need to change anything, except for the columncluster.
So since 7 chars is out, it ends up having to be pictograms for ctrl/select and alt/start. Not at all a bad idea if done right.
 
Alt is already a pictogram in use that works ⎇. Knowing where alt is, ctrl being a similar button, is right next to it. Even with the aestetic being unfamiliar at first, over time a much better deal than the micro-textual context Ctrl would have been.
 
Keeping it simple is a great idea, also in not turning away those who loathe complexion. Casual users. For whom android is the popular choice, working for them, without the use of either.
 
Even if space-constraint spawned it, i think the triangle is a better idea than "Ctrl", regardless of buttonsize. I have no problems accepting the tinfoil hat △ as a symbol of control.
Right now both ctrl and alt are different from the powercluster and purple in terms of colour. They cant be more distinct colour-wise seperating them from each-other would mean taking away from the colourscheme communication on <^v> and the purple. Since the colour-palette is limited to non black and white, which is max contrast dictated by visibility.  Doing colours for ctrl and alt, unless somehow there is a colour for control and alternate, is a burden of learning that ends up being without value.

Start and select is something one expects to be in between d-pad and <^v>, i just think we need a way of arranging and designing pictograms that makes it easy enough to pick up.

  △     →•     
⎇ (runner)
 
On a snes controller the arrangement is   (dpad)  select  start  (abxy), one could argue that the pandora is now the norm, right or wrong thats not a huge deal. In my head the following is less classical since the right thumb is farthest away from select in the earlier example, so that  select, start, thumb is maintained.
 
⎇ (runner)
  △     →•     
 
However I do think Ctrl and alt should be first on the button, since you dont use the buttons that are used in conjunction with ctrl and alt, when you use start and select.
That is also the reason they can share buttons. So they are always(primary use) respectivly ctrl and alt, unless(secondary use) when used alone, which is when you are playing console-games.
Something that also fits well with the pyra more prominently than the pandora happening to be a mini-laptop. I think that is a point of capability made more clear by not only having the capability, but also focusing the design on it as a whole. Gamers see a dpad and buttoncluster and are already sold on that idea. There is a huge market to be had if "mini-laptop" can be conveyed through looking at it.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

So far I have preferred the basic options, XYAB etc. Most of the alternatives have looked pretty bad to me. Sometimes I feel like there is some weird disconnect in these forums, the weird and wacky seem to flourish regardless of opposition, polls, norms, conventions, etc.


Threads going on for hundreds of pages, people who disagree get bored of repeating themselves so by the hundredth page the opposition has dwindled a little. Then ED finally makes a decision and just copies the Pandora button names! (Or maybe not.. only time will tell.. but I doubt he will read through the huge threads to make the decision.. some posts are like entire Wikipedia articles)

 

[bzar]

Just goes to show it's not a simple matter. In such cases one can of course take the easy way out and pick a mostly ok option on gut feeling. The longer way is to recognize all the concerns raised in the long and branching conversation to get the full picture. After having all the angles they can be prioritized while identifying proposed solutions to each one. Only then can an informed decision be made that at least has an opinion on all the various reasons people want different layouts. Some concerns may not get a solution in the final layout if not found important enough and that's OK. The primary requirement to an informed decision here is to have reasons why they were left out. That makes sure they are at least given thought.

It's too easy to dismiss previously unconsidered issues based on some flaw in a proposed solution. The focus should be on the issues like button/key confusion, not proposed solutions like greek symbols. Each issue can have any number of solutions and dismissing the entire premise based on one of them is just leaving the issue there. Maybe the example I picked isn't a very high priority one, but it should still be ranked on the priority scale as an issue, not as the one proposed solution. Maybe something like button mapping backwards compatibility is weighed more important than it, so it has to be left "broken", but at least then there's a reason for it.

The final layout probabaly won't please everyone, but it should be something that has its reasons for being like it is.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

I've lost track of threads like this long time ago.

 

[Glyph Reader]

I've lost track of threads like this long time ago.

At first, I kept a close eye of these threads.  However, they just started to repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat...

I hope ED gets to the keyboard layout soon. 

-Glyph Reader

 

[mrpalmtop]

I've lost track of threads like this long time ago.

I think there are too many to keep track of as well.

Since no one seems to be interested in my idea of the space bar in the middle of the bottom row, all I care about is we have a dedicated apostrophe and quotation mark key. That's a huge thing for me and for anyone who does a lot of English prose typing. It's also important for coding as well with strings.

 

[comradekingu]

If you want dedicated use of ' and " that means making use of the coding cluster, which means coding []{} is out. So button F11 and F12 can be used.

Otherwise you have to make due with how for example my regular desktop keyboard works, shift+2 is "

That isnt an insurmountable flaw, it is acceptable.

Which is why i called it coding/intl-cluster initially. Fortunately for you, english has a reduced set of letters, so you dont have to make any more changes. Fortunately for me, ' is for the most part only used at large in English.

The problem then becomes writing code which includes []{} and using english prose at the same time. It is, rather than it's possible to comment code without the use of ' and ", but since

those are available as chorded-presses, it then becomes a question of efficiency.

Having efficient coding that is easy to transition to per default is more valuable (all ()<>[]{} next to eachother instead of all over the place), and a uniform way of dealing with diactrics is valuable.

(1234567890 all have one of them each, move " and ' to the letter part of the keyboard, and thats no longer the case)

I dont just hold an opinion, i try to make it, and keep people updated as to how that progresses.

Anything that havent yet been questioned and subsequently answered in a sufficient manner is what im after. If that means repeating something so that someone can come up to speed with the decisions to be made then i am pleased to provide that.

While to many not so interesting, the details of the whole thing cant be left to chance. It isnt just a continual process of discussion.

Short of stumbling upon just this result, it is the only way of getting there.

Unless someone can fault the whole thing and send me back to the drawing-board, i am down to the aestetics of the column-buttons. Again something that may seem easy or unimportant, but it is something that _really_ grinds my gears. It must be solved, not hidden.

I know a centered spacebar lends itself to an easy transition from 10-finger desktop typing, and ive to make that design many many times, but I cant do it without taking losses im not ok with.

Here is an overview of all efforts, i think some threads have been made after this was constructed.

The whole thing is like figuring out something that can only be measured in other answers, loosely based on all the knowledge and desire that can be put into it.

Edit: Suprised myself going back to the folder, because I had already made one that makes the changes i was after.



The bold numberrow is more readable, (compared to this) but since it looks similar to the letters, its less so, since it all becomes a bigger block of the same thing. Visually processing each to their own and making the letters stand out, as they are most important is better imo.

 

[comradekingu]

The only thing im left questioning is the X /  <  delete / back button

It has the problem of re-using one of the letters from AB_X_Y  and also it breaks what would otherwise be a quite iconic pattern in itself.

Yes it lends itself to pointing to how there is another use to these, but frankly it seems using insert and delete is just as advanced as not explicitly naming those buttons, which is to say those people will get on just fine. It did to some degree work on the pandora, and there it was not evident at all.

Using < is the quickest and most clear way of deciphering it, there is no directly matching letter i can find, but 3 does just fine.

With that, you have the colour red, which is very delete and back, and also "the opposite of insert" does make some sense that an X can never accomplish.

And here is a gem for those that like heritage, a pocket TRS-8  with directionally motivated delete and insert buttons.  Both the same order and similar insignia!

Edit: How about using the utf-8 northwestern broken circle 

for escape instead of writing ESC on the key. 

Then there are symbols only across the board.

 

[Wally]

Oh come on.. Let's stick to SOME ISO standards at least..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995

 

[comradekingu]

The keyboard symbol for the ESC key (which may be used when the usual Latin lettering "Esc" is not preferred for labelling the key) is standardized in ISO/IEC 9995-7 as symbol 29, and in ISO 7000 "Graphical symbols for use on equipment" as symbol ISO-7000-2029. This symbol is encoded in Unicode as U+238B broken circle with northwest arrow (⎋).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esc_key it says

"

ISO keyboard symbol for "Escape""

Edit: Since the wiki article stating bob beamer and escape 1960 pointed to Kennedy, Pagan, "Who Made That?", New York Times Magazine, October 7, 2012, p.20 link I felt the need to do some research into the matter.

The 1620 made in 1961 had an emergency pull https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_c2viaQcAbd4/TFy0OWBhsAI/AAAAAAAAHdU/EJouyBV-Kus/s1600/6.jpg

ESC is present in all of these

http://www.baudot.net/docs/smith--teletype-codes.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBCDIC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII

EBCDIC was devised in 1963 and 1964 by IBM and was announced with the release of the IBM System/360 line of mainframe computers

While IBM was a chief proponent of the ASCII standardization committee,[2] they did not have time to prepare ASCII peripherals (such as card punch machines) to ship with its System/360 computers, so the company settled on EBCDIC.[3]

In 1965 that meant getting the model 30 40 or 50.

For the model 30 this is the printer-keyboard https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/IBM_System360_Mainframe_teletype.jpg

That is "ALTN CODING"  and its function is described in   http://media.ibm1130.org/E0027.pdf

ALPHAMERIC A typewriter-like keyboard which is used to enter al-KEYBOARD phameric information and perform special functions. For performing special functions, the following addi-tional keys are provided on the alphameric keyboard:

ALTN CODING: When depressed, allows the END or CANCEL function to be performed from the keyboard.

END: When depressed in conjunction with the ALTNCODING key, causes the END function to be performed.

CANCEL: When depressed in conjunction with the ALTNCODING key, causes the CANCEL function to be per-formed

"You may then hold down the ALTN CODING key and hit the EOT key to cause an attention interruption"  http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/os/tso/GC28-6762-0_Time_Sharing_Option_Terminals_Mar71.pdf

I think you could optionally hook up a selectric keyboard, but the IBM one didnt have ESCAPE  http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ibm100/images/icp/N781083W30030P65/us__en_us__ibm100__selectric__selectric_1__620x350.jpg

http://www.corestore.org/3278-3.jpgis an IBM dumb terminal which featured "CNCL"

But not everything had escape.

"In the 1970s and 80s, by contrast, practically every e-mail message was legitimate, worth reading, and usually only 1-2K bytes in length, and could not possibly hurt your computer (not strictly true; it was possible to put an escape sequence in an email message that, if it arrived intact at certain kinds of terminals, could make them automatically transmit any desired text back to the host, but even if you had a terminal that responded to the escape sequence, this rarely could cause any serious demage because an email client would be on the receiving end, not the system command prompt)."  http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/

81'  5150 keyboard   http://www.vintage-computer.com/images/83key.jpg

Prior to 84 and model M, IBM still sometimes had "Attn" on AT keyboards   https://i.imgur.com/JQgiW.jpg

An attention key which could be both Escape, or Jump  http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg1II04992

DEC Digital correspondent had it  http://www.corestore.org/LA12-1.jpg  but thats 83-84  http://www.vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter13.html

TL;DR To sum it up, yes Bob Beamer worked on creating ASCII, but no, i dont think he would have picked the name of one of the alternative programming languages used on the IBM 650 Magnetic Drum Calculator  http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/650.html