What about "PlayStation-style ABXY"? With or without the < > v ^...
Explaining keyboard layout proposals. Fn hotkeys updated, language switching, powertoggles etc
- Thread starter comradekingu
- Start date
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
A red thingy on an X, or just a big red X, might help get across the idea of delete. Not sure how well it would translate in other places.
I think keeping the button markings simple will look better, and if done right it will make it easier to remember or see what other functions it has. Right now I like the idea of a colored diamond split amongst the buttons best of all the recent ideas. What FZERO came up with works, and looks good to me, and we can swap insert and delete if needed. I suspect that once you explain the meaning behind the markings it will serve as a reminder of their additional functions.
I think keeping the button markings simple will look better, and if done right it will make it easier to remember or see what other functions it has. Right now I like the idea of a colored diamond split amongst the buttons best of all the recent ideas. What FZERO came up with works, and looks good to me, and we can swap insert and delete if needed. I suspect that once you explain the meaning behind the markings it will serve as a reminder of their additional functions.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
You are right. Red both looks good and makes sense for back/delete.
The playstation colours arent pretty, so its really just three different types. SNES, Sega dreamcast, and Xbox
Also, same as with playstation-esque things, this is a nintendo trademark. I dont really know what that means in terms of getting sued, but not doing it is certainly the safe bet.
Snes is the only one with red in the vertical plane, but at the right hand side. There is nothing wrong with dreamcast, and it can be emulated.
Xbox i dont know about, and honestly both sega and MS have copied nintendo.
Meanwhile nintendo was busy doing everything else, but have now found their way back to the roots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel#mediaviewer/File:Newton%27s_colour_circle.png
Esoteric things aside.
Yellow top, SUN. Then green for the most used button, EARTH. And the neutral blue SEA bottom, is nice.
Red on the least used, with the combo for android-buttons (home back menu), that also signify what they do, and point out the direction they are in, I really like.
If you want the order to be insert on the left, and delete on the right, you can do so by swapping those buttons. If you also swap the top and bottom, you have the snes-layout.
But then you have a layout where all the arrows point inwards towards the centre
v
> <
^
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Is adding different colors to the game buttons like this even in the budget for the Pyra?.. it would either cost a bit extra to mold plastic with different colors, other method would be to silkscreen or use stickers both which could wear off after a while..
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Doubleshot keycaps cost more than painted ones, and require heavy machinery. Sink (metal) buttons would be another wishful alternative.
I was imagining grooves like on the pandora, you can hand-paint them if need be, or you could strip the colour away. Colour is no must for me, but i do understand its a nice way to distinguish buttons. Some people work best with colour, some with letter, some with direction.
As for the keyboard part, ive set out direction as the main theme, colour adds to the convention, but it isnt a must.
I was imagining grooves like on the pandora, you can hand-paint them if need be, or you could strip the colour away. Colour is no must for me, but i do understand its a nice way to distinguish buttons. Some people work best with colour, some with letter, some with direction.
As for the keyboard part, ive set out direction as the main theme, colour adds to the convention, but it isnt a must.
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rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
I think these are ideas of showing button functions based on the results of one of the polls.
Wally
I am a banana!
Some people just like reinventing the wheel for no particular reason. I don't get it either.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
The reason why ABXY is suboptimal on its own is because it does not do any of these
This means if one can learn a pattern, it becomes irrelevant in terms of the next.
Both in terms of colours, but also in the arrangement of ABXY.
This is especially true for something that will be used for more than games from within the same ecosystem, the greatest deal of that wont be for non-repackaged pnds.
Sadly going for the most popular out of the arbitrary, so as to at least make the best bad choice out of any is not viable
There is nothing final about abxy, it is actually almost random, which is the worst possible situation, because you bring a different mix of assumptions to the table, and invariably get more than general confusion.
With two groups of two you have two ways of doing them. AB XY or BA YX
For us that is not good. It seems the major players like being mutually exclusive though.
For the historically major player sega, they got 4 by taking 2 away from 6. Sometimes you add shoulders to 4 to get semi-6, but therein lies another issue. Arcade 6button is meant to be played with fingers, and not only thumb. Nintendo64 added another variation to the mix by adding 4 to a cluster of 2.
What the pyra does is add extra 2 to a cluster of 4, without that being either a very commonly used arrangement, any variation of 6 or something that has ever had anything to do with ABXY.
Keeping the two seperate so as to not making it a 9x9 cluster where 3 buttons are missing, is to have 4 and 2 be different from eachother. Acting as Home/back/menu is how much i can see it tying together when only being beneficial, and that is the next point.
Colours, other than also being semi random, and also in their relation to ABXY, have this major problem.
Orange/purple/indigo/turqoise is the slim pickings the equal disaster-compromise is reduced to, and that is no way to play.
Here we have to deal with what we are given, and humpety dumpety already fell down in terms of convention. Pyra games can be coded to reflect a choice in controller. Ready made historic games, well you could have an overlay in each emulator for each game as a tutorial. Other than that, you will have to adapt your one-true-solution attitude. And i hope the above clears up any "if i close my eyes this is not a problem"-sentiment.
Shoulders, to mention that too, is luckily still to my knowledge unison. If you have two on each side, the toppest one is 1 and the bottom is 2, like PS. If they are side by side, its nintendo wiiU style. L for Left and R for right is the best lettering, and consistently used. Importantly, colour isnt as important here, because you dont see it as you type. Lest we forget, this is the same for when you play games. Variation over the theme Red/green/blue/yellow are only important when you try to learn a game, in tutorial-mode. When you get into it, its muscle memory that takes over. When you are trying to learn that, its direction that makes sense. The diamond-shape of 4 cluster is the going-trend and most important historic convention. Directive connotations in your brain is most important to arrangement.
This mental mapping must be taken seriously instead of adding another broken variant, or sticking with what is broken. Re-learning position the wrong way, which is what we are trying to avoid, can be illustrated this way. Try to say the colour the font is in when learning these, one at the time. Then try to re-list them in order, by text without looking afterwards. For advanced mode, recite them along with the colour. The language center in one half will fight the logic in the other. And unless you employ memory-teckniques your logic will be frayed too.
RED GREEN BLUE YELLOW
BLUE RED GREEN YELLOW
RED BLUE GREEN YELLOW
For extra mental gymnastics, now make the background colour different colours, do the whole exercise over and just pick one and one fact to recite, then tell me this is as easy as remembering 3 sets of colours named by their colour, that are arranged after the rainbow.
When you are trying to pull a multiple pony-trick out of your hat, direction is what should be the basis of learning. Similarly why ergonomics or what you are used to touching and using wins every time. Luckily the pandora hit the spot here on ergonomics, and with the right layout, the pyra can just keep on pushing the right buttons for all of us.
- Show direction based on symbol alone
- Have a function that decides its position
This means if one can learn a pattern, it becomes irrelevant in terms of the next.
Both in terms of colours, but also in the arrangement of ABXY.
This is especially true for something that will be used for more than games from within the same ecosystem, the greatest deal of that wont be for non-repackaged pnds.
Sadly going for the most popular out of the arbitrary, so as to at least make the best bad choice out of any is not viable
- Colour arrangement in the case of Snes and the added symbols in the case of PS are trademarked, they will sue someone who facilitates legal emulation before you can say "a boy named"
There is nothing final about abxy, it is actually almost random, which is the worst possible situation, because you bring a different mix of assumptions to the table, and invariably get more than general confusion.
With two groups of two you have two ways of doing them. AB XY or BA YX
For us that is not good. It seems the major players like being mutually exclusive though.
For the historically major player sega, they got 4 by taking 2 away from 6. Sometimes you add shoulders to 4 to get semi-6, but therein lies another issue. Arcade 6button is meant to be played with fingers, and not only thumb. Nintendo64 added another variation to the mix by adding 4 to a cluster of 2.
What the pyra does is add extra 2 to a cluster of 4, without that being either a very commonly used arrangement, any variation of 6 or something that has ever had anything to do with ABXY.
Keeping the two seperate so as to not making it a 9x9 cluster where 3 buttons are missing, is to have 4 and 2 be different from eachother. Acting as Home/back/menu is how much i can see it tying together when only being beneficial, and that is the next point.
- The extra 2 buttons we have when adding them to the 4cluster doesnt have anything to do with the < button in ABXY, (and it shouldnt be in any ABXY sense)
Colours, other than also being semi random, and also in their relation to ABXY, have this major problem.
- No paradigm that is derived from something that makes sense. Or is easy to remember.
Orange/purple/indigo/turqoise is the slim pickings the equal disaster-compromise is reduced to, and that is no way to play.
Here we have to deal with what we are given, and humpety dumpety already fell down in terms of convention. Pyra games can be coded to reflect a choice in controller. Ready made historic games, well you could have an overlay in each emulator for each game as a tutorial. Other than that, you will have to adapt your one-true-solution attitude. And i hope the above clears up any "if i close my eyes this is not a problem"-sentiment.
Shoulders, to mention that too, is luckily still to my knowledge unison. If you have two on each side, the toppest one is 1 and the bottom is 2, like PS. If they are side by side, its nintendo wiiU style. L for Left and R for right is the best lettering, and consistently used. Importantly, colour isnt as important here, because you dont see it as you type. Lest we forget, this is the same for when you play games. Variation over the theme Red/green/blue/yellow are only important when you try to learn a game, in tutorial-mode. When you get into it, its muscle memory that takes over. When you are trying to learn that, its direction that makes sense. The diamond-shape of 4 cluster is the going-trend and most important historic convention. Directive connotations in your brain is most important to arrangement.
This mental mapping must be taken seriously instead of adding another broken variant, or sticking with what is broken. Re-learning position the wrong way, which is what we are trying to avoid, can be illustrated this way. Try to say the colour the font is in when learning these, one at the time. Then try to re-list them in order, by text without looking afterwards. For advanced mode, recite them along with the colour. The language center in one half will fight the logic in the other. And unless you employ memory-teckniques your logic will be frayed too.
RED GREEN BLUE YELLOW
BLUE RED GREEN YELLOW
RED BLUE GREEN YELLOW
For extra mental gymnastics, now make the background colour different colours, do the whole exercise over and just pick one and one fact to recite, then tell me this is as easy as remembering 3 sets of colours named by their colour, that are arranged after the rainbow.
When you are trying to pull a multiple pony-trick out of your hat, direction is what should be the basis of learning. Similarly why ergonomics or what you are used to touching and using wins every time. Luckily the pandora hit the spot here on ergonomics, and with the right layout, the pyra can just keep on pushing the right buttons for all of us.
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How about keep the Pandora standard, but add directional dots physically on the button.. Much like what's shown on PNDManager, but physically. To me this is the best of both world, keeps what is standard, adds what you are looking for, there is already a library of images floating around that can be inserted into applications for reference and is also friendly to those with color blindness.
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rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
I don't see how dots give the impression of page up and down, or insert and delete. I am good with whatever markings are on the buttons, however I thought these ideas were being explored for the reasons in my previous post.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
TrashyMG:
ABXY isnt good. To someone picking it up, it is arbitrary. The alphabet (the one we use) is arbitrary to basic intuitive function, direction and colour to add with it.
There is sadly nothing standard about ABXY, its either ABXY or BAYX or an even more inept variant thereof.
ABXY is arbitrary to <^v> but it is even more so to BAXY, when what you are trying to decipher is button to direction, or combos of buttons.
<^v> is to any variant of abxy a one-to-many relation. (instead of the many to many cluster **** in the case of abxy to itself) when you add colour to that mix, it adds insult to injury, because there is no common way to remember it, so you are bound to learn by picking at straws, only to lose them and/or add exceptions. Which means you re-learn forever and ever, with it only getting uglier and uglier over time.
The reason some people are able to remember the seemingly random pi number, is because it doesnt change, and if it did, fully random would be better than some enthropy.
The B buttons is already at the right side, referencing it with * when A X and Y is also * doesnt help much.
I tried the colours against black for all colour-blindness impairments, and it isnt counterintuitive. Sadly there is no way to have everyone see the same thing though.
The white lines against black is for people with bad eyesight to have the maximum contrast. I like the more advanced version artistically, but functionally the simplest is best, because it is recognisable.
A good buttoncluster is iconic. One reason for not copying someone else, other than it being impossible to do fully because of legal issues, is that it looks cheap when its a bad imitation. What you are left with other than that, are exactly the parts that dont make sense for this community, because we arent huge, and we want compatibility.
Edit: I missed how you said Pandora standard originally. The pandora standard is really the GP2X standard as far as I know, it could be even earlier, but thats where it originated as far as the pandora is concerned. The GP2X also sold around 10x as many units. Read my IRC reply to Wally below for insight into how i see the pandora layout. I think maybe that choice made sense at the time, and curiously to the ones that made it, gamepark, they dropped it when making the XGP (in favour of snes abxy). Gamepark holdings continued the BXYA with the Wiz and canoo, it is however now time to re-think the issue, and solve it this time around. Gamepark is not a company anymore, and gamepark holdings has said it will not make any new hardware. GP2X layout is dead. Going forward with Semi-snes will alone be more compatible than GP2X layout will be in terms of games. We could discuss how far the GP2X legacy has fundamented itself, but nothing can make it sensible.
ABXY isnt good. To someone picking it up, it is arbitrary. The alphabet (the one we use) is arbitrary to basic intuitive function, direction and colour to add with it.
There is sadly nothing standard about ABXY, its either ABXY or BAYX or an even more inept variant thereof.
ABXY is arbitrary to <^v> but it is even more so to BAXY, when what you are trying to decipher is button to direction, or combos of buttons.
<^v> is to any variant of abxy a one-to-many relation. (instead of the many to many cluster **** in the case of abxy to itself) when you add colour to that mix, it adds insult to injury, because there is no common way to remember it, so you are bound to learn by picking at straws, only to lose them and/or add exceptions. Which means you re-learn forever and ever, with it only getting uglier and uglier over time.
The reason some people are able to remember the seemingly random pi number, is because it doesnt change, and if it did, fully random would be better than some enthropy.
The B buttons is already at the right side, referencing it with * when A X and Y is also * doesnt help much.
I tried the colours against black for all colour-blindness impairments, and it isnt counterintuitive. Sadly there is no way to have everyone see the same thing though.
The white lines against black is for people with bad eyesight to have the maximum contrast. I like the more advanced version artistically, but functionally the simplest is best, because it is recognisable.
A good buttoncluster is iconic. One reason for not copying someone else, other than it being impossible to do fully because of legal issues, is that it looks cheap when its a bad imitation. What you are left with other than that, are exactly the parts that dont make sense for this community, because we arent huge, and we want compatibility.
Edit: I missed how you said Pandora standard originally. The pandora standard is really the GP2X standard as far as I know, it could be even earlier, but thats where it originated as far as the pandora is concerned. The GP2X also sold around 10x as many units. Read my IRC reply to Wally below for insight into how i see the pandora layout. I think maybe that choice made sense at the time, and curiously to the ones that made it, gamepark, they dropped it when making the XGP (in favour of snes abxy). Gamepark holdings continued the BXYA with the Wiz and canoo, it is however now time to re-think the issue, and solve it this time around. Gamepark is not a company anymore, and gamepark holdings has said it will not make any new hardware. GP2X layout is dead. Going forward with Semi-snes will alone be more compatible than GP2X layout will be in terms of games. We could discuss how far the GP2X legacy has fundamented itself, but nothing can make it sensible.
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Wally
I am a banana!
Ever heard of the KISS principal? It's probably the sanest thing that'll be mentioned in this thread.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
(07.32 +0200) ***Wally didn't get a word of kingus blabber
comradekingu: i got that from your reply, where did you fall off?
comradekingu: Wally: i almost replied "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." but i think that would have left you none the wiser
comradekingu: In my head i follow the KISS principle (with religious approximation).
Wally: then why on earth would you "feature vomit" all over the place.
Wally: Thank B-ZaR for that one.
comradekingu: I dont follow
comradekingu: Is it you that dont understand me, or should i take heed of your opinion made on the basis of not understanding me?
comradekingu: If i am to critique what i think you meant, you could KISS down to where you only have black buttons on black background. But that isnt KISS. It is principially an ill understanding of what a buttoncluster is, much less the one we have, or a combination with keyboard functions
comradekingu: There isnt a single line or design element that is excessive on the latest revision, if it is, please prove me wrong
comradekingu: As for the no-contrast ABXY arrangement which is detrimental to tactile feeling, but not distinctly unique between the buttons, that the pandora uses, for rewritable software. Therein you have the worst parts of ABXY made even worse.
comradekingu: That argument is one of saying gp2x got things right...
comradekingu: 18 okt 2011 Word of the day: Feature vomit. Thanks to @adamkleinberg to describe the current execution of SmartTV. #imediasummit
comradekingu: Unless you are willing to explain yourself, aking to how my designs arent deviced from the logic that made smartTVs dumb, ill write that off as a strawman attack
comradekingu: Wally: or?
I hope this clears things up. Please respect the thread title and explain posts that are made. I do answer pm's too.
comradekingu: i got that from your reply, where did you fall off?
comradekingu: Wally: i almost replied "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." but i think that would have left you none the wiser
comradekingu: In my head i follow the KISS principle (with religious approximation).
Wally: then why on earth would you "feature vomit" all over the place.
Wally: Thank B-ZaR for that one.
comradekingu: I dont follow
comradekingu: Is it you that dont understand me, or should i take heed of your opinion made on the basis of not understanding me?
comradekingu: If i am to critique what i think you meant, you could KISS down to where you only have black buttons on black background. But that isnt KISS. It is principially an ill understanding of what a buttoncluster is, much less the one we have, or a combination with keyboard functions
comradekingu: There isnt a single line or design element that is excessive on the latest revision, if it is, please prove me wrong
comradekingu: As for the no-contrast ABXY arrangement which is detrimental to tactile feeling, but not distinctly unique between the buttons, that the pandora uses, for rewritable software. Therein you have the worst parts of ABXY made even worse.
comradekingu: That argument is one of saying gp2x got things right...
comradekingu: 18 okt 2011 Word of the day: Feature vomit. Thanks to @adamkleinberg to describe the current execution of SmartTV. #imediasummit
comradekingu: Unless you are willing to explain yourself, aking to how my designs arent deviced from the logic that made smartTVs dumb, ill write that off as a strawman attack
comradekingu: Wally: or?
I hope this clears things up. Please respect the thread title and explain posts that are made. I do answer pm's too.
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Wally
I am a banana!
Seriously?
You're posting a lot of banter about 4 keys.. Most of us want to keep these keys and here's proof of it thanks to "The big Pyra keyboard poll" and it's a majority vote of 58 people who want to keep the current layout..
So you either leave this alone or keep ranting.. It's up to you because It's not changing.
Alea jacta est.
You're posting a lot of banter about 4 keys.. Most of us want to keep these keys and here's proof of it thanks to "The big Pyra keyboard poll" and it's a majority vote of 58 people who want to keep the current layout..
- A B X Y in the Pandora order (A B Y X) plus two more (58 votes [18.24%] - View)
So you either leave this alone or keep ranting.. It's up to you because It's not changing.
Alea jacta est.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Its the same 4 keys in diamond shape on all platforms.
GP2x layout is used on gp2x, wiz, canoo and pandora
Snes layout with snes colours is exclusive to nintendo, used on SNES and the new 3DS
Snes layout with no colours (semi snes) is used on wii professional controller and a whole range of other things.
PS layout is exclusive to SONY game division, used on everything they make
Genesis layout (4 of the 6 buttons is similar to the below)
Dreamcast layout is used on the dreamcast, xbox (which the pyra cant emulate in any meaningful way) and nvidia sheild (the latter two with other colours)
Of the legally viable options, Gp2x layout and semi-snes are second rate to PS or Snes for reasons discussed earlier.
I cant think of anything other than nintendo that use snes and semi-snes though..
The vote is for acceptable solution. Its not a exclusive majority. I voted that i think pandora layout is acceptible, but also other things.
A total of 18% is not a high number though. And that is for a option which reads "ABXY in the pandora order (abxy)", that is however not the case as far as abxy goes.
ABXY was always (Snes) > v ^ < with others going for v > < ^. In short that means the historic (and current) snes abxy is three orders of magnitude more popular than the later and now out of production gp2xlayout.
More people wanted to have functions shown than not, even with limited options available.
What you fail to take into account is that this design was not part of that vote. From those votes i did learn that if not all matters are taken into account, more people will still side with the known-problematic solution.
I do not understand why i am "ranting" nor why you wouldnt want to get a solution with more than 18% thinking its acceptable.
GP2x layout is used on gp2x, wiz, canoo and pandora
Snes layout with snes colours is exclusive to nintendo, used on SNES and the new 3DS
Snes layout with no colours (semi snes) is used on wii professional controller and a whole range of other things.
PS layout is exclusive to SONY game division, used on everything they make
Genesis layout (4 of the 6 buttons is similar to the below)
Dreamcast layout is used on the dreamcast, xbox (which the pyra cant emulate in any meaningful way) and nvidia sheild (the latter two with other colours)
Of the legally viable options, Gp2x layout and semi-snes are second rate to PS or Snes for reasons discussed earlier.
I cant think of anything other than nintendo that use snes and semi-snes though..
The vote is for acceptable solution. Its not a exclusive majority. I voted that i think pandora layout is acceptible, but also other things.
A total of 18% is not a high number though. And that is for a option which reads "ABXY in the pandora order (abxy)", that is however not the case as far as abxy goes.
ABXY was always (Snes) > v ^ < with others going for v > < ^. In short that means the historic (and current) snes abxy is three orders of magnitude more popular than the later and now out of production gp2xlayout.
More people wanted to have functions shown than not, even with limited options available.
What you fail to take into account is that this design was not part of that vote. From those votes i did learn that if not all matters are taken into account, more people will still side with the known-problematic solution.
I do not understand why i am "ranting" nor why you wouldnt want to get a solution with more than 18% thinking its acceptable.
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It doesn't, but neither does kingu's ideas. But does it really need to?
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
In abxy terms, the gp2x layout has a few hundred thousand units sold, and that is a generous estimate. Compared to a few hundred million for snes layout and other popular ones. I cant think of a single exclusive Gp2x, canoo or Wiz game where gp2x layout is a must. That means 6300 units sold isn't really the biggest deal in the world.
Going forward with gp2x layout when nobody else has it means compatibility with a library of pandora games that can and should be ported anyhow.
This is the history of gp2x layout.
Gamepark makes it with the gp2x, they drop it for their next console which is never released, and go bankrupt since they lost all their engineers.
It is adopted by the Pandora
It is carried on by gamepark holdings, who continue to make 3 devices with it
Gamepark holdings say in 2010 they will make no more devices
The last pandoras are made in 2014 taking the total number to 6300
Give or take, that is the situation.
Lets say there are 5000 active users of gp2x layout devices in 2014 that play mostly native games.
Going forward the pandora community is the only one left, in charge of their own games, and in a situation where games need to be ported.
I cant for the life of me understand why a standard that is actively confusing in relation to accepted (and used) standards is the best, when it has huge problems with support in that same community.
The same goes for genesis/dreamcast, PS layout, and Snes layout. Picking one or the other has the exact same problems, only less so.
Are there any devices other than nintendo ones that use snes layout btw?
Lets think the whole thing through and see what the alternatives are before we put all the eggs in the broken basket.
I tried to reflect the size of the extra buttons.
The white lines are all page/screen type visuals. Up page ^, Down page v , Into page > . The X is delete. Or back (<) if you use android. The house is home on both, and the ... is end (and menu on android)
And before we all collectively start hating on android. It is the most used OS in the world when you combine all devices... If 1000 out of the billion people that use android buy a device because the buttons make more sense for android, then that is a huge deal for the pyra community.
Going forward with gp2x layout when nobody else has it means compatibility with a library of pandora games that can and should be ported anyhow.
This is the history of gp2x layout.
Gamepark makes it with the gp2x, they drop it for their next console which is never released, and go bankrupt since they lost all their engineers.
It is adopted by the Pandora
It is carried on by gamepark holdings, who continue to make 3 devices with it
Gamepark holdings say in 2010 they will make no more devices
The last pandoras are made in 2014 taking the total number to 6300
Give or take, that is the situation.
Lets say there are 5000 active users of gp2x layout devices in 2014 that play mostly native games.
Going forward the pandora community is the only one left, in charge of their own games, and in a situation where games need to be ported.
I cant for the life of me understand why a standard that is actively confusing in relation to accepted (and used) standards is the best, when it has huge problems with support in that same community.
The same goes for genesis/dreamcast, PS layout, and Snes layout. Picking one or the other has the exact same problems, only less so.
Are there any devices other than nintendo ones that use snes layout btw?
Lets think the whole thing through and see what the alternatives are before we put all the eggs in the broken basket.
I tried to reflect the size of the extra buttons.
The white lines are all page/screen type visuals. Up page ^, Down page v , Into page > . The X is delete. Or back (<) if you use android. The house is home on both, and the ... is end (and menu on android)
And before we all collectively start hating on android. It is the most used OS in the world when you combine all devices... If 1000 out of the billion people that use android buy a device because the buttons make more sense for android, then that is a huge deal for the pyra community.
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