Cancelled

[Swarm]

Well, first, we didn't expect the first nubs company to go bust, which cost us 30.000 USD more.


Then we didn't expect the new nubs to fail. 400 units shipping back and forth can easily add up to about 40.000 USD.


We also didn't expect it to take that long until everything is resolved. We've got monthly costs (office rent, debs need to be paid as well, taxes, tax counsellors, etc.). Probably about 8.000 USD per month. Calculate this up to 30 months and you get another 240.000 USD.


While the new nubs were being developed, there were about 8 months where NOTHING happened.


This also lead to many people cancelling, my guess is about 300 - 400 alltogether. That's about another 105.000 USD additional costs.


Development and labour had been paid by our own money, we said from the very beginning only parts and production will be paid by you. But thanks to these issues we have here, we had a lot more expenses that we had planned.


Believe me, we'd rather finish the queue as fast as possible and would NOT have any premium Pandoras at all. But we didn't have much choice, sadly.

IMHO You have got to treat your customers as investors and give some regular feedback, even if there is nothing to say it's better than silence. this post helps a lot it takes five minutes a week for somebody from OP to say where things are at, it would help with the cancellations and probably give more confidence to premium upgraders and new orders.

 

[MarioPandio]

^ "The enemy", "the good guys"? What is this, a comic book?


Really, seriously, now, I don't think that proclaiming that a company - who, let's not forget, do not appear to have representatives here to speak on their behalf - is "the enemy" is a good thing to do.

The comic book aspects was perhaps Blue Protoman appealing to the lowest common denominator, in the hope it would wash everything over rosy and allow for smooth sailing of whatever ills may lay ahead. It worked for Afghanistan and Iraq afterall. I'm just kidding. However Prometheus is absolutely right about not defaming CC here, as they arent here to defend themselves and were NOT HAPPY last time they were getting lots of stick from these boards. They could have pulled the plug on the whole thing, so we should all watch what we say.


Frz may also be forgetting the large financial hit that was incurred when the original nub design company went bust and then the costs of the redesigning of the 2nd batch of nubs from the new manufacturer, whose first set had a tendency to fail, each nub costing 2 way RMA fees aswell. Plus the 'Credit Crunch' (I hate that term) caused huge changes to lead times and prices of manufacturing worldwide. OPT is lucky to have survived this and when they recalculated the current price it became apparent they are operating on a loss per unit. Craigix made the bold but vital move to offer Premium units to ensure the OPT business has the life blood to finish these batches. Not an easy choice but for the best.


Sadly demand has since not been capable of being met by CC due to the new issues ED has kindly taken the time to explain in more detail. It may have seemed only a few boards with wifi issues (as they were lucky to catch that issue during the Royal Wedding Fiasco...though I gather Kates sister had a nice bum or something) reported here and we may have assumed this was rapidly sorted but what ED has just revealed makes total sense. It takes time for making testing rigs to ensure no further boards had this and further time to ship them etc. Remember CC produced an amazing first run of boards with zero defects and proved they are very capable for this complex project. Sadly the third party nubs let it down. They caught the shoulder button issues pretty rapidly and now we have a wifi issue. It makes no sense to have any boards produced until they can test for and eliminate that too. Delays yes but one step closer to perfect production.


If people can hold out a little longer I think production will start to fly and then Craigix had hire the addtional folk required to cope with the production that the Premium price tag allows for. Those will be happy days just around the corner but all that is kaput if everyone gets cold feet and pulls the rug from the OP Teams feet, who have already bust a gut to get this far and wish nothing more than to get this superb product flying out the door and a good nights sleep for a change.


Hold in their people, watch your mouths about CC and RESPECT TO OPT

 

[FRZ]

Well 1st, at least I'll stop complaining, have somewhat what I paid for and move on with my life. 2nd, how could the cost have been $400 when you guys had spend all the time finding all the cost before and it was a lot less than that. The price of the unit originally was at $299 had all the cost included after months of calculating parts and labor, although by the time I put my ordered in I paid $350. I understood then it was a simple case of exchange rate between currencies. Now this $400 cost of production is completely new. This is beginning to sound like a mechanic shop, always changing the price and threatening not send my unit.

Well, first, we didn't expect the first nubs company to go bust, which cost us 30.000 USD more.


Then we didn't expect the new nubs to fail. 400 units shipping back and forth can easily add up to about 40.000 USD.


We also didn't expect it to take that long until everything is resolved. We've got monthly costs (office rent, debs need to be paid as well, taxes, tax counsellors, etc.). Probably about 8.000 USD per month. Calculate this up to 30 months and you get another 240.000 USD.


While the new nubs were being developed, there were about 8 months where NOTHING happened.


This also lead to many people cancelling, my guess is about 300 - 400 alltogether. That's about another 105.000 USD additional costs.


Development and labour had been paid by our own money, we said from the very beginning only parts and production will be paid by you. But thanks to these issues we have here, we had a lot more expenses that we had planned.


Believe me, we'd rather finish the queue as fast as possible and would NOT have any premium Pandoras at all. But we didn't have much choice, sadly.

I see, now that you put it this way. Well, I'm not one to consider cancelling but, you can understand that some of us might just be going mad by now from being frustrated and overly impatient. Months and months is going by and we are still waiting and then we get people being call troll for posting about it. Thats uncall for.

 

[Ollonk]

Thank you for the updates, ED. Honest communication means something in itself, even if it's not necessarily good news.

 

[drenyx]

There's not much we can do except for waiting for boards with issues to be fixed and getting boards from CC.


You remember we had issues with a full batch of boards where suddenly WiFi was not working - simply because this was a new, weird issue that we never had before.


CC did test WiFi initialization, but not the connectivity. That's why I built four testing rigs until last Monday and shipped it to them.


They can now test the boards they have (and the few hundred with that issue we sent back) and find out what's wrong.


This WiFi issue surely cost some time. First we needed to realize it's there, then we need to check all boards we have, mark them, collect them, ship them back, improve the testing, send CC new testing rigs, etc.


This is not something that can be done in one or two days. With all the shipping and testing, it means 2 - 3 weeks until everything has arrived and is ready at CircuitCo.


Then they will need to test, find the issue, fix it, retest, etc.


As long as they couldn't test that issue, they didn't send new boards - cause the chances were high a lot of them were broken.


We've arrived at the last about 1000 boards of Batch 1, and once they start with the new testings (next week) and find the fix for the boards we sent back (might be the WiFi module simply needs a reflow), more shipments will happen.

Thank you for the update ED. This clarifies somewhat the information that had been in the wild. Last we had heard, some units suffered this wifi issue, but I belive I read that Craig tested a small number of units and only some of them were affected. I think I read somewhere that CC was just using a new SD card with a test script of some kind...so now we are finding out there's been no updates because the wifi issue has stalled board shipping again? I'm not trying to sound angry or start any misinformation, but this is how I understand things based off your post. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted the information.


So, now that these new test rigs are making their way to CC they are going to start testing/sending boards again soon?


And, not saying you guys aren't working, but if there is some downtime, a lot of us would appreciate seeing the status page updated, even if we are at a current shipping standstill.

 

[EvilDragon]

IMHO You have got to treat your customers as investors and give some regular feedback, even if there is nothing to say it's better than silence. this post helps a lot it takes five minutes a week for somebody from OP to say where things are at, it would help with the cancellations and probably give more confidence to premium upgraders and new orders.

I'm perfectly aware of that, but before I can post updates, I have first to find out the current status of all involved people and companies myself.


I don't know if you remember, but about one year ago I posted updates as far as I knew them and assumed the rest (even mentioned that I assume this).


If the assumption was wrong though, people blamed me for lying.


Since then I try to gather all facts before repeating that mistake again.

I see, now that you put it this way. Well, I'm not one to consider cancelling but, you can understand that some of us might just be going mad by now from being frustrated and overly impatient. Months and months is going by and we are still waiting and then we get people being call troll for posting about it. Thats uncall for.

Hm? Putting what how?


I can't remember this being something new?


I might not have posted everything I said here together in one post, but I'm pretty sure I mentioned the real price one unit did cost us somewhere and also that the Premium units ARE currently helping us to continue.


The only thing I can imagine is that I did some posts only in German at the german boards, it's quite confusing for me as well sometimes.

Thank you for the update ED. This clarifies somewhat the information that had been in the wild. Last we had heard, some units suffered this wifi issue, but I belive I read that Craig tested a small number of units and only some of them were affected.

No, only a few had been accidentally shipped, I don't think Craig ever told us the number here, but AFAIK it was more than 100 PCBs.

I think I read somewhere that CC was just using a new SD card with a test script of some kind...so now we are finding out there's been no updates because the wifi issue has stalled board shipping again? I'm not trying to sound angry or start any misinformation, but this is how I understand things based off your post. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted the information.

Not sure exactly what the status with CC is right now, I requested more information from them and will hopefully get more soon.


They got the SD Card and confirmed it works, but they only had one case and it takes a lot of time to insert the card into it. The SD Card also tests each button, that's why they couldn't do much.


This is the reason I built the new testing rigs for them (that was the sped up video on Pandorapress.net they created from my webcam).

So, now that these new test rigs are making their way to CC they are going to start testing/sending boards again soon?

The test rigs arrived on Wednesday and I requested a status update now that they got it.


Hopefully, CC will be able to shed some light on how many boards they will have ready for shipping soon and that the new testing works fine.

And, not saying you guys aren't working, but if there is some downtime, a lot of us would appreciate seeing the status page updated, even if we are at a current shipping standstill.

Well, the issue is, I don't know that much myself.


I don't get informations when CC ships PCBs to Craig and how many. I don't know how many PCBs with issues Craig had that get back to CC.


I can only request the current status and report what's going on with my small share of units, and that's what I am doing at the German Boards.


I know Craig is very busy himself right now, probably working on Batch 2 stuff, I'm not sure he counts all the PCBs he's building, so he might not know exactly how much he got himself...

 

[WizardStan]

I'm sure everyone has forgotten already, but I haven't had much free time this weekend, so indulge me a moment while I travel back in time 32 hours.

Ah, a troll!


Sure your phone has a better battery than 4200mah. Right. And I bet those emulators are AMAZING with no controls.


Oh and the fact you think that all there is to the power of a system is the Mhz rating.. well.. I guess the Caannoo is just as powerful as the Pandora.

Troll? Do you also lack basic comprehension skills Craigix?


You know what? I'll just spare you my "trolling" and cancel my order. I can put up with the dick-waving bullshit from fanboys, but I don't need it from the people I'm trying to support.

Bye!

bye dude, have fun with you phone thingie

Really guys? Really? 3jane makes a pretty good point and comes to what seems to be a very logical conclusion, worded well I thought, and he's labeled troll, hater, don't let the door hit you on the way out? I thought we'd been over this many many times: just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are out to get you. This is why this forum and Pandora fans in general have such a bad reputation now, anyone with a dissenting opinion is harassed into leaving. I'm starting to not like coming here.

 

[Prometheus]

^ That was my point when I mentioned the notion of it suddenly being said that such folks are somehow "not right" for the project. I sincerely hope it doesn't contribute to anyone else deciding to leave. I'm certainly coming to understand why some folks look in from the outside and see the community very, very differently to how folks here tend to see it.

 

[craigix]

I'm sure everyone has forgotten already, but I haven't had much free time this weekend, so indulge me a moment while I travel back in time 32 hours.

Ah, a troll!


Sure your phone has a better battery than 4200mah. Right. And I bet those emulators are AMAZING with no controls.


Oh and the fact you think that all there is to the power of a system is the Mhz rating.. well.. I guess the Caannoo is just as powerful as the Pandora.

Troll? Do you also lack basic comprehension skills Craigix?


You know what? I'll just spare you my "trolling" and cancel my order. I can put up with the dick-waving bullshit from fanboys, but I don't need it from the people I'm trying to support.

Bye!

bye dude, have fun with you phone thingie

Really guys? Really? 3jane makes a pretty good point and comes to what seems to be a very logical conclusion, worded well I thought, and he's labeled troll, hater, don't let the door hit you on the way out? I thought we'd been over this many many times: just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are out to get you. This is why this forum and Pandora fans in general have such a bad reputation now, anyone with a dissenting opinion is harassed into leaving. I'm starting to not like coming here.

He was trolling, or so incredibly ill informed that he would have been confused by the Pandora and insisted on returning it anyway.


I simply don't believe he thought the 'facts' he stated to be true.

 

[Cyberbug]

It's beyond anyone's control but their (CircuitCo's, not OpenPandora's) own. If anything, NOT cancelling (or better, upgrading) will contribute to speed a bit; you think CircuitCo would listen to OP more if they had some more cash? This thing is worth it beyond doubt. Hang in there!

More cash, more cash? No, I dont think thats the answer. Cuz if I count this right 4000 orders for the first batch at a roughly $300 price is 1.2 million. I am pretty sure that was enough to get parts and have this thing wrapped up by now. Although I understand the man power involve will be slow building units but, this whole Circuit Co. not producing and shipping the boards and holding the project is not not going well with me. That is just ridiculous. Tell me you have the board and its taking time to build and ship them cuz its just the two of you guys doing it, ED and Craigix. Darn it, send me my parts and I will build it myself and save yourself the labor. Darn it darn it darn it.

Most of paid for extra batteries, cases and shipping in advance. so more like 1.5Million

 

[Cyberbug]

I don't even know who I ordered with, All I have is an email address and order number.


openpandorasales@gmail.com


Still no response.


I bet if I sent an email to upgrade to Premium I would get a quicker response.

 

[WizardStan]

what good point, Stan?

He was trolling, or so incredibly ill informed that he would have been confused by the Pandora and insisted on returning it anyway.


I simply don't believe he thought the 'facts' he stated to be true.

His facts were that the Pandora's processor is outdated compared to those found in mobile phones right now. This is strictly true: my phone has a better processor and more RAM than my Pandora. Whether it is being properly utilized is besides the point: clock for clock, it is better.


Second, he stated the thing the Pandora has going for it is the form factor: this is an opinion, stated as fact, but still very true, the best part of the Pandora and the thing that sets it far from anything else is the keyboard, nubs, game controls, and the way it just sort of fits perfectly into your hands.


The next thing he said, the point he was trying to make, the one he then repeated, the last one he stated, in bold, before being called a troll, was that "paying $150 extra to skip waiting time that was never supposed to happen is not totally worth it". That was his key point, stated as opinion and not fact, and I don't think he's wrong. Yeah, it sucks that things didn't go as planned, so many things went wrong that was out of OPTs control, but that's precisely part of what makes his point. People should not be happy that the price has necessarily gone up, shouldn't be happy that premiums are going out before completing preorders (again, understandably necessary). Doing something more to get what you're owed should not be met with glee. Was it totally worth it, paying for nubs you had already bought? Or did you think "man, it sucks that we have to pay twice for these things"? Can you honestly tell me that it was totally worth it to pay a second time for the nubs, that you were happy to part with the extra $30'000? That is what he was trying to say.

 

[WizardStan]

Again, comparing pandora to anything that doesnt feature gaming controls is totally pointless. It's a fact, not opinion. That's pandora heart and soul.

He wasn't comparing the Pandora in its entirety with anything else, he was simply talking about the power, the CPU/GPU bits. You can most certainly compare the engines between a 4 door sedan and a pickup truck. The chassis serve different purposes and the engines match those purposes, but it is easy to make facts of which has more torque, more horses per litre, etc. That wasn't the point he was trying to make though, it was just a lead in to the point he was going for.

Next point, form factor, but I still can't discard gaming controls in my mind. Without them, a mobile is a better choice. OF COURSE, Stan! What's the point in comparing again, if you have playing games in mind? Besides, you have other features that lacks in mobiles

And this is where he agreed, twice in fact: the Pandora's form factor is what makes it special, absolutely. No one is debating or trying to compare with anything else. I double checked his posts to make sure I hadn't missed anything and I confirmed he never said anything negative about the form factor, quite the opposite: that the form factor was THE reason to be getting a Pandora. The actual opinion he expressed, the final thought he was getting at which was even stated as an opinion, was that he didn't feel the form factor alone was worth paying $150 to skip a wait that shouldn't have happened in the first place, and I don't think he's entirely wrong in that assessment. Doody happens, true, but when presented with two evils, you don't have to be happy to have taken the lesser of the two; if you have no choice, you can take the road of least resistance and still complain about the mosquitos. Telling the person complaining that they should shut up and be happy for the mosquitos because the other path had firebreathing dragons doesn't help anything. 3jane even mentioned that he felt people occasional venting to get it out of their system was the only thing keeping them on board, and given the number of people who have claimed to have canceled after being told to stop complaining (case in point), it's another opinion I don't think he's too far off on.

 

[notaz]

This is why this forum and Pandora fans in general have such a bad reputation now, anyone with a dissenting opinion is harassed into leaving. I'm starting to not like coming here.

+1

 

[Sugar_Kane]

Do we have a bad rep? I'd hate to think so. There are plenty of disgraceful excuses for forums out there, and I still feel that these are the most civil forums on the entire internet. Some bad habits do seep in now and then, but generally I like it here.


I always try to act as I would if I were talking face to face, because the anonymity of the internet has to be the biggest reason for bad behaviour. It's very easy to get carried away with text and write things that you would never say to another human being.


It would be interesting to know what kind of criticism is being levelled at us, and whether the grass is greener where they are coming from.


Anyway, I'm bum chatting. It's a shame to see 3jane go(especially sad due to the Neuromancer ref). It's a shame to see anyone feel they need to cancel their order and leave because of a few sour words, please rethink guys.


Is this the third person in as many months to drop out because of this? In this case we have to allow criticism, personally I love my Pandora and I can't imagine a better device for me. I will sing it's praises from the roof tops, but I won't smash someone's brains out for disagreeing with me because I know that it's not for everyone and some people will never understand that it's not supposed to be a PS3. The same goes for disagreements about how the project has been handled, personally I am just glad that this bird got off the ground to begin with, and I think the guys have done an astounding job keeping it going, I couldn't confidently say that I wouldn't have chucked the towel in long before this point if I was running things. They've made controversial decisions here and there, but I agreed with their reasons and accepted what must be. I believe that ED is shining example of how a human being should be, and if we all tried to be a little like him then the world would be a better place. I believe that Craig is also a great guy, and that he's hilarious. All these things I believe and I understand that others will think I'm stupid, but I won't go to war over it. Can't we all just get along?

 

[Bosbeetle]

I try to spam the pandora a lot all around the net. And people are still amazed with it when I show it, just recently I saw a big gadget freak go while playing colin mcrea on the pandora. He owns an android phone but I guess the controls got him happy, the same with quake and duke3d. The only thing I hear now is the price is steap but when I explain they understand.


I think the pandora will still instill some awe in years to come since the software is improving alot. I just hope that OPT get the assembly more steady and I (and a lot of others) will help to make that -180000 from ED into a more positive number.


Btw where can I preorder the pandora2 I can wait a while before getting it

 

[EvilDragon]

I think the pandora will still instill some awe in years to come since the software is improving alot. I just hope that OPT get the assembly more steady and I (and a lot of others) will help to make that -180000 from ED into a more positive number.

Well, once Batch 2 is finally going, I'm not too scared about the -180.000 anymore, when all parts, boards and production of Batch 2 is on the run, selling the units will be easy. Most of it is already paid.


The hard thing is keeping a good balance between parts for Batch 2 and keeping enough money to pay for any refunds.


The refunds depend on the production of the remaining Batch 1 PCBs from CircuitCo - the longer they need, the more refunds we'll probably have the more money we need to lay aside for that possibility.


It's still all about money, sadly. If we had some billionaire who wouldn't care about borrowing us half a million, then we could easily start the production of the next 4000 units right away. Once they are sold, that half a million could've been easily paid back.


As we probably won't find such billionaire who'd help us, we need to be very careful.


Right now, we're planning to do smaller batches ofr Batch 2 so we won't need that much money upfront. Not possible with all parts, some need to be bought in higher amounts, but possible with some.


The big issue is that all parts need to be paid upfront. Once paid, they take up to 15 weeks until you get them.


If we could pay the parts AFTER the production, it would be easy - we've got enough people still asking to buy Pandoras.


It's an annoying situation - you know the money would come back, but you still need to get it somewhere first and know you need to keep some for refunds


Well, right now, we are approaching Batch 2. If CC delivers the remaining boards in a steady pace now that they got the new testing rigs, then not many refunds should happen, we can sell some more Premiums and Batch 2 will start


Everything is still good here as long as CC keeps shipping PCBs

 

[Neelix]

CC have obviously said they could produce the boards to get the business - they are now doing that but obviously they are not very good at testing which is exactly what they should be perfect at!


ED should not have to send testing stations for them - that should be something they just do!


Every board they produce should only be forwarded to OPT if it is perfect. The odd faulty board may slip through


but this all sounds extremely unprofessional by CC.


I cannot believe what CC are doing and not doing it is disgusting and it could all end in tears.


Another board company is needed and fast - surely it's worth doing considering the monthly costs that have to be paid even if nothing is shipped.

Erm... How???? CC make the boards to OPLs specifications using parts provided by OPL... They don't make the cases, or the keypads, or the LCDs, and are not involved in assembling the various bits and pieces into a finished pandora. Making the finished units functional then requires software, the firmware which is loaded by OPL when the units are assembled. So without software and testing rigs (Cases LCDS, & keymats) provided by OPL how can they test for a problem which only becomes apparent when the software tries to perform a specific operation?

Again, comparing pandora to anything that doesnt feature gaming controls is totally pointless. It's a fact, not opinion. That's pandora heart and soul.


Next point, form factor, but I still can't discard gaming controls in my mind. Without them, a mobile is a better choice. OF COURSE, Stan! What's the point in comparing again, if you have playing games in mind? Besides, pandora has features that lack in mobiles

I disagree with this... am really not that much of a gamer myself... my primary reason for wanting a pandora had nothing to do with the gaming controls, that was just a bonus. To me, having a full featured linux PC with built in wifi and bluetooth in such a small form factor was enough for me to want one. My primary use of the gaming controls is that they fulfil functions normally handled by a mouse and other keys on the keyboard. Do I make use of the gaming controls for games? of course. Was it a consideration when considering my purchase? absolutely! Was it my only consideration? not by a long shot!


My Point? Just this: comparing the pandora to any other device is always a valid comparison if you are choosing between the two for a specific purpose. Just because your purpose is not the same as his purpose, doesn't make his comparison any less valid.


- Neelix

 

[Jumpman]

@Neelix


You bring up a valid point, and I completely agree with it.


The reality is that you are in the minority, and not the majority. Most of the guy/gals around here who are complaining about what the Pandora can or can not do, are more often than not reffering to the gaming aspect of the machine.


If gaming and gaming controls are not a HUGE reason for wanting the Pandora, I would suggest that there are many other products on the market that have always been equal to, and or better than the Pandora in non gaming uses. So once again I just can't get behind that argument, but it's cool if someone else can.


Chris

 

[Ollonk]

Indeed, many people insulted me for being willing to pay so much for something they simply saw as a toy. It's a full XFCE environment in your pocket. There's literally nothing else on the market that offers that (at least, that has a keyboard and a suitable replacement for a mouse.)


Other UMPCs are often bulky, prohibitively expensive, or worse, they run a bloated Windows based OS that makes crap use of the hardware. The Pandora has Ångstrom, a keyboard, and a size that is really unrivaled when it comes to pocket computers. (And Nintendo 64....)