A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)

[klapse]

I'm not personally convinced that they can legally share the information that we would need to make an informed opinion about things.

Exactly what legal barrier to sharing the number of open preorders do you imagine? I cannot think of one.


On a positive note: Craig has posted a new video - spread the link around http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=youtube_gdata&v=GEpLdwbI0gc&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGEpLdwbI0gc%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata

 

[mcobit]

Hmmm. The video says, that if you buy the Pandora there isn't a penny to pay, just enjoy... If you want to get the games shown in the video, you'll have to pay A LOT of money. Or download them illegally.

 

[quartercast]

I was thinking that too. At least people can play their existing games collection without having to pay a cent extra

 

[_wb_]

Hmmm. The video says, that if you buy the Pandora there isn't a penny to pay, just enjoy... If you want to get the games shown in the video, you'll have to pay A LOT of money. Or download them illegally.

Yes, that quote may also feel a bit sour for people who are still waiting for their original preorder, and meanwhile paid lots of pennies to get "upgrades".

 

[PokeParadox]

Hmmm. The video says, that if you buy the Pandora there isn't a penny to pay, just enjoy... If you want to get the games shown in the video, you'll have to pay A LOT of money. Or download them illegally.

This is fixed with a simple small print disclaimer on the bottom of the video. But it is implied that you already have the classics... I guess.

 

[EvilDragon]

I'd also fix this with a small disclaimer.


Copyright is different in each country, and there are even countries where it's legal downloading and playing old ROMs even if you don't own them.


So a disclaimer mentioning that these are not included and you need to check for legality of usage with your country would be best.

 

[andmaz777]

I do not think that Craig has done anything suspicious, he just seems to be in a complete mess which is causing a lot of annoyance.


He has also made some massive gambles that could easily have paid off but unfortunately, as with all forms of gambling, you have to factor in the chance of losing which he has not done.


I can even understand how frustrating it can be to put so much time into sorting things out only for it to get worse and worse.


Exact position of the mess is needed then it can be sorted in a planned manner with loads of sales.

 

[Godmil]

Excellent post Andmaz777, though I wouldn't say things are getting worse and worse. It seems like thing are slowly getting better.

 

[hedwards]

I'm not personally convinced that they can legally share the information that we would need to make an informed opinion about things.

Exactly what legal barrier to sharing the number of open preorders do you imagine? I cannot think of one.


On a positive note: Craig has posted a new video - spread the link around http://m.youtube.com...e=youtube_gdata

Typically in this particular industry you have all sorts of NDAs involved. Not to mention the fact that if they share something that makes a company look bad and it turns out to not be true, they're potentially on the hook for defamation.


Seriously, without having the details, people really shouldn't be assuming that they're holding back a lot of information. They may be, or they may not be or possibly for one reason or another they can't.


And I really don't think all the armchair quarterbacking is really helping the project move forwards.

 

[Trezker]

For a lot of old console games, is it even possible to buy new original copies of the games from the copyright holders?


I think you'd have to do quite a bit of detective work to figure out how to pay for your copy of the games.

 

[Cilph]

Eh, downloading copyrighted content isn't illegal in my country. Uploading is however. Let's hope they keep it that way.


I really look forward to playing with DOSBox and some good old classics. But I'm afraid that'll take another four more years.

 

[hedwards]

For a lot of old console games, is it even possible to buy new original copies of the games from the copyright holders?


I think you'd have to do quite a bit of detective work to figure out how to pay for your copy of the games.

Depends where you live. Back home I'm lucky enough to have several shops that specialize in old school games. Then there's online shops like estarland that have tons of games. I think that unless you're looking for an obscure title you probably won't have too much trouble finding it. Obscure titles can bea real PITA to get.


I've started collecting games and dumping them with my Retrode. (For those that don't remember that started out on the fora as the SNEGA or something along those lines) For anybody that's serious about emulation it's well worth the money. It's not technically legal in the US to use, but the last court ruling on that was like 30 years ago and at that time it was still easy to get the consoles on which to run the carts so it's likely fair use now.

 

[quartercast]

Eh, downloading copyrighted content isn't illegal in my country. Uploading is however. Let's hope they keep it that way.

I really look forward to playing with DOSBox and some good old classics. But I'm afraid that'll take another four more years.

What country is that? Eden?

 

[robert2098]

Eh, downloading copyrighted content isn't illegal in my country. Uploading is however. Let's hope they keep it that way.

I really look forward to playing with DOSBox and some good old classics. But I'm afraid that'll take another four more years.

What country is that? Eden?

In The Netherlands but that is only for Audio/Video files and not for software. It is allowed because of the law that you are allowed to make copies of your CDs/Video for home use. For example a copy of your CD in your car. As compensation we pay a surcharge on blank media (CD, DVDs) and from 2013 also on iPods, tablets, external HDs, HD recorders and laptops and PCs even if you do not store audio or video on them.


Robert

 

[elwing]

Eh, downloading copyrighted content isn't illegal in my country. Uploading is however. Let's hope they keep it that way.

I really look forward to playing with DOSBox and some good old classics. But I'm afraid that'll take another four more years.

What country is that? Eden?

it was the same here a few year ago, not sure if it's true anymore. well it was not really legal to download copyrighted, but it was ruled by a court that you could not know if the download was legit or no, only people who share copyrighted material are responsible...

 

[Cilph]

Eh, downloading copyrighted content isn't illegal in my country. Uploading is however. Let's hope they keep it that way.

I really look forward to playing with DOSBox and some good old classics. But I'm afraid that'll take another four more years.

What country is that? Eden?

The Netherlands. B) Turns out I was wrong, it does not apply to software and games.

 

[mcobit]

It's more or less the same thing for germany. But that you don't get sued for downloading material doesn't make it legal.


It is still not allowed to download copyrighted stuff! But you most likely only get problems when uploading copyrighted material.

 

[klapse]

I'm not personally convinced that they can legally share the information that we would need to make an informed opinion about things.

Exactly what legal barrier to sharing the number of open preorders do you imagine? I cannot think of one.

Typically in this particular industry you have all sorts of NDAs involved. Not to mention the fact that if they share something that makes a company look bad and it turns out to not be true, they're potentially on the hook for defamation.

So you can't think of one either... I thought not.


NDA means Non Disclosure Agreement - usually implemented to prevent IP from being spread around. With whom would Craig plausibly have signed a NDA to keep the number of outstanding preorders a secret? There is no third party outside of the OP team who has a stake in keeping secret how many he has left.


Since the total number we have from Craig is 800, there need to be approx 800 sales / upgrades to clear Craig's order+refund queue, minus a few from donations, right? Seems like we already know enough.

 

[hedwards]

I'm not personally convinced that they can legally share the information that we would need to make an informed opinion about things.

Exactly what legal barrier to sharing the number of open preorders do you imagine? I cannot think of one.

Typically in this particular industry you have all sorts of NDAs involved. Not to mention the fact that if they share something that makes a company look bad and it turns out to not be true, they're potentially on the hook for defamation.

So you can't think of one either... I thought not.


NDA means Non Disclosure Agreement - usually implemented to prevent IP from being spread around. With whom would Craig plausibly have signed a NDA to keep the number of outstanding preorders a secret? There is no third party outside of the OP team who has a stake in keeping secret how many he has left.


Since the total number we have from Craig is 800, there need to be approx 800 sales / upgrades to clear Craig's order+refund queue, minus a few from donations, right? Seems like we already know enough.

Sigh, I have better things to do with my time. A defamation suit or fraud lawsuit would definitely ensure that no more units are produced. The suit wouldn't even have to have any meaningful merit, just enough so that it wasn't dismissed summarily. If you can't see that as a legal barrier, then I'm not really sure what it would take to convince you.


And that's not even counting possible fraud action if somebody doesn't cancel based upon the information or orders one based upon the information and the information proves to be innaccurate.


What's more, the rumors will continue no matter how much information they choose to share. I'm not aware of any other company that shares as much information.

 

[klapse]

A defamation suit or fraud lawsuit would definitely ensure that no more units are produced. The suit wouldn't even have to have any meaningful merit, just enough so that it wasn't dismissed summarily. If you can't see that as a legal barrier, then I'm not really sure what it would take to convince you.

That possibility for legal action (even if unjust) exists in the status quo. Do you really think a lawsuit is MORE likely if Craig releases the open liabilities in terms of refunds, preorders and 1ghz preorders respectively? This is what people have been asking for. If I were a waiting customer, I would be LESS likely to attempt legal actions if I saw Craig openly sharing the preorder status.

And that's not even counting possible fraud action if somebody doesn't cancel based upon the information or orders one based upon the information and the information proves to be innaccurate.

Firstly, where is the increased potential for fraud action on non-cancellation? If the released information shows a longer refund queue than preorder queue, a preorderer might infer that by not cancelling they would get a preorder unit faster than a refund. But that would be a mistaken conclusion resting on the assumption that Craig clears refunds and preorders in a 1:1 ratio. He hasn't said this, to my knowledge, and he would not have to make such a statement as a part of revealing the breakdown of existing obligations.


Secondly, what is the legal problem with ordering an upgrade? If someone orders an upgrade or new unit, they ship immediately from Ed's shop, so that REDUCES a liability and a potential attempt at legal action.

What's more, the rumors will continue no matter how much information they choose to share. I'm not aware of any other company that shares as much information.

Rumors and guessing happen when there is a lack of information. See, preorders are basically invenstors, and by comparison, a publically traded company has to report more information on profits, assets and liabilities than Craig is giving his ground-level investors.


The 1GhZ preorders currently have no choice but to wait. But original investors/preorderers face the question of whether to upgrade rather than wait. It seems only fair to provide them the basic information they are asking for to make that decision, doesn't it?