WizardStan makes a keyboard

[WizardStan]

Here's my concept

Mashed together some ideas from others to come up with what I think looks and feels right.

I didn't populate all the Fn keys, there are 8 empty spaces we can fill in with international symbols if we so desire. I don't know the best way of doing that for those that need them, however, so if people like my layout we can discuss exactly which international keys need to go on.

The benefits of my layout comes from some characters existing on two keys: some as straight "fn" keys, some as "fn+shift" combos. Since most other keyboards only have the "fn" combos, nothing is really lost by providing the "fn+shift" combos. The gain in having both is that they are readily accessible for those that just like minimal presses but still accessible for those who have a brain wired for them from years of use, plus no need for custom keyboard hacks in QEMU or DosBox or anything else that may use such a thing.

I put the fn-shift combo keys on the left to make it easy to press: note fn+shift on the right, just press them both, no problem. I also put a second keyboard shift on the left. Because there are only two shift key codes, I'm envisioning both keyboard shifts producing the same code.

Finally, I also came up with an interesting Fn-Space combo: pressing Fn-Space causes it to do an "alt-fn" combo. So if you press "fn"+"space"+"E" it'll produce the Alt-F4 key sequence. I didn't add an easy fn-ctrl combo though.

The only major drawback is if the user presses both buttons at the same time and then releases one: some software might think the button was still being pressed down. In practice this probably isn't going to happen, anything that uses the keycodes directly is likely to be a game or emulator and the user is almost certainly going to be using the shoulder buttons for that. Same with the fn-space combo.

The one crux in this setup, as with Grench's setup, is if the keyboard matrix makes the bottom two rows inaccessible when fn-shift is pressed, in which case I'll have to rearrange those combos to be up on the number row, which might not be too bad either.

edit: also, as per the Pandora, I left alt and ctrl in the centre to be start and select. This makes them easily accessible to thumb typers from either side and maintains compatibility and it felt like a waste of keys otherwise anyway.

The bottom button in that column is the Pyra button, same as the Pandora button, a generic "menu" button. I'm envisioning it being handled better this time around however, with more of a SysRq set of functions.

 

[Saber]

Greetings from the frontline. When you figure out how to link your work, maybe a mod could kindly move your proposal to where the other finals are in _wb_'s thread? 

Well, it's interesting. Would appreciate though not having to press Shift and AltGr for " and ? symbols or, like all too often with these proposals, rely on the shoulders too much for the basics.

 

[WizardStan]

I figured it out. For some reason it was failing to save because "entity too large" which is weird because I just used Grench's layout and rearranged things. If his is going to work I would have expected mine to as well but I probably made some mistakes in copy/paste because there were some unused labels scattered around. I just deleted them and all was well.

 

[TrashyMG]

You have two sets of curly brackets " { } " I take one of them is supposed to be " ( ) "?

Edit: well hrm.. you do have "( )" elsewhere...

 

[WizardStan]

You have two sets of curly brackets " { } " I take one of them is supposed to be " ( ) "?

Edit: well hrm.. you do have "( )" elsewhere...

The benefits of my layout comes from some characters existing on two keys

 

[bzar]

1. Is your Fn a hardware modifier, a driver-level modifier or a software modifier?
2. How does the alt-fn thing work in practice? Is it driver-level functionality?

 

[WizardStan]

• Is your Fn a hardware modifier, a driver-level modifier or a software modifier?
• How does the alt-fn thing work in practice? Is it driver-level functionality?

Fn is a magic "do the right thing" modifier. I'm envisioning it as producing its own keycode, but when combined with another key the driver does what needs to be done.Like "Fn"+"E" produces an "Fn" keycode (most likely "meta" or some other already existing code so we don't have to create our own) and an "F4" keycode: it does not produce an "E" code. In this way support for the fn+shift is automatic and covered by the default keyboard layout: "shift"+";" = ":", therefore "shift"+"fn"+"," = "shift"+";" = ":"

Fn+Space will produce an Fn keycode, an alt keycode, and then whatever you press next while still pressing fn+space (ie, F4).

Keycodes are manipulated at the driver level while still producing an Fn event (or meta, or whatever internal keycode we actually end up using) that software can capture.

 

[_wb_]

Some remarks:

Feels weird to me to have a dedicated Fn key that produces a sticky modifier combo Alt+Fn.

Your layout has three shift keys, which means there will either be two keys that are both 'Left Shift' (or two that are both 'Right Shift'), which causes trouble.

I understand your reason to have duplicate { } | : " (and I would add ? to that list), but to me it feels too redundant. We have a keyboard that is way smaller than most, so it feels wrong to put 'redundant' stuff on it.

You have 8 'free' keys without an Fn-label: DFGHXCVB. Unfortunately, those are the least suitable keys to map international letters to, since except for Ç none of those letters frequently get a diacritic. The vowels (äëïöüáéíóúàèìòùâêîôûåæœø€ etc) are way more suitable, as well as S for ß and N for ñ. So if you want to keep just 8 keys free of Fn-labels, I would pick AEIOUSCN.

Except for the shifted number row and `~, all of the punctuation symbol keys are quite far away from their usual location.

 

[WizardStan]

Feels weird to me to have a dedicated Fn key that produces a sticky modifier combo Alt+Fn.

There's a lot of things that feel weird but are oh so right. It's a shortcut to make it easier to type Alt keys, like Alt-F4. It's not important and can easily be removed if people are OK with the necessary trade off.

Your layout has three shift keys, which means there will either be two keys that are both 'Left Shift' (or two that are both 'Right Shift'), which causes trouble.

I acknowledge the potential problem but argue it's not likely to really be a problem. It won't cause a problem in character mode applications like word processors or terminals and games and emulators are generally going to use just the shoulder buttons, so the odds of someone hitting both keyboard shifts and releasing one when it will matter is very slim. Not impossible, and worth considering, but shouldn't immediately discount the idea I think.

but to me it feels too redundant.

Indeed, I'd thought of that as well, but blame those that insist "fn+shift" is not valid and all characters must be "fn"able directly. This is the compromise.

so it feels wrong to put 'redundant' stuff on it.

I addressed that too. The alternative is to only have three symbols, so having these few keys with four does not detract anything. If we were so desperate for keys we actually needed those fourth symbols for something then I'd agree, but as other keyboards have demonstrated they aren't necessary, having them is strictly a bonus.The only argument is to whether the fourth label can fit or not.

those are the least suitable keys to map international letters to,

Fair point. Like I said, I don't use these international symbols, I don't know the best placement. Would simply leaving the middle row available be good enough? I know you suggested vowels but that kind of blocks the whole "F1-F12 on a single row" deal.

all of the punctuation symbol keys are quite far away from their usual location.

Yes. I don't see a problem with that. It's a compromise to make them easier to thumb-type. On many of the proposed keyboards the Fn key is still on the right making it very difficult to thumb type those characters already, requiring either a sticky Fn and two distinct presses or reaching the left thumb across the keyboard. My proposal of putting Fn on the right and punctuation on the left solves that. Mine also isn't the only keyboard that put punctuation on the left.

 

[Grench]

OK, I generally like this one.  It's hard not to  .  Hiding an alt key inside the space bar was pretty clever.

I understand what you're going after by embedding a duplicate set of {} at the Fn level of J and K.  It's to make them easier to get to.  However, they're no easier to get to than the {} set on the Fn+Shift A and S keys.  Since the Shift+Fn keys can be chorded either by the right thumb or the left index finger, the difference between being on shift+key or Fn+key or shift+Fn+key becomes moot.  It's the same physical actions of modifier(s) + key.

This is a concept I think is being missed by a lot of people in the '4 symbols is too much clutter' camp.  On the 4$=+ key of the Wizardstan keyboard above, $, = and + are all equally accessible.  Fn+4, Shift+4 and even Fn+Shift+4 are the same number of actions since Fn+Shift can be chorded.

 

[_wb_]

those are the least suitable keys to map international letters to,

Fair point. Like I said, I don't use these international symbols, I don't know the best placement. Would simply leaving the middle row available be good enough? I know you suggested vowels but that kind of blocks the whole "F1-F12 on a single row" deal.

Yes, since most vowels are on the top row (even all of them in AZERTY layouts), keeping them free for accented variants blocks the "F1-F12 on a single row" deal. I do like the idea of F1-F12 on a single row (many of my earlier proposals had that), but on the other hand I also like the idea of Fn/Meta + k = Fk. It's a pity that the number row does not have one more key.

Leaving the middle row available is not good enough in my mind, but it is better than what you have now. It is aesthetically more pleasing, and it means that at least you can assign accented vowels to keys directly below the vowel keys. Something like this, maybe? http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/277212229bc72ec2cdbcec1d1b2493e4

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

God!  Another keyboard thread!!!

 

[cinaeco]

I clicked on the topic on the off-chance that the title meant WizardStan was building his own mechanical keyboard.

 

[rygD]

I clicked on the topic on the off-chance that the title meant WizardStan was building his own mechanical keyboard.

Or a place to hang his keys upon arriving home.

 

[WizardStan]

Or a place to hang his keys upon arriving home.

That would be this

 

[fusion_power]

I really don't want to complain or critisize but how many "Keyboad" threads you guys wanna make until a final one is choosen? ""

 

[comradekingu]

Did you invent yet another ABXY-standard?

I dont like not having ü  and öä buttons (to the right of P and L respectivly)

Slalom-typing is inefficient and counter-intuitive.

WIth 4 prints, see if you can get some ideas here  http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a08aaddd5f8bff6bce928661ed411158

Printing " in the x-height means its difficult to recognize as ".

 

[WizardStan]

I really don't want to complain or critisize but how many "Keyboad" threads you guys wanna make until a final one is choosen? ""

One for each serious proposal, a single reference thread for all proposals which links back to the discussion threads, a general purpose "throw ideas around" one, an unofficial poll (because polls are fun), and eventually an official poll which will help ED make the final decision. Occasionally when someone gets a really good idea or needs some specific information that may warrant its own thread to keep it separate from the rest of the discussion. Basically I'm saying I don't think there needs to be a limit on keyboard threads as long as they all serve their purpose. Cross and off-topic discussion is the only problem with these keyboard threads, and often leads to having multiple threads spawn for the same topic.

 

[WizardStan]

Did you invent yet another ABXY-standard?

I didn't think so, I started with Grench's layout and made modifications where I felt things could be improved. I falsely assumed it was the standard layout, I wonder if Grench is aware he changed the order or if he did so intentionally.I meant to leave it the same as on the Pandora. Pretend it is until I have a chance to fix it.

I dont like not having ü  and öä buttons (to the right of P and L respectivly)

I said I didn't have much knowledge in how people used international keys so was taking suggestions, but if you're hoping to have those on the right of P and L prepare for massive disappointment.

Slalom-typing is inefficient and counter-intuitive.

Explain. what is "slalom" typing?

Printing " in the x-height means its difficult to recognize as ".

What do you mean "in the x-height"? You mean too low on the key? It's no different then every other keyboard proposal, really, what would you propose to solve whatever problem it is you are seeing?

 

[comradekingu]

Putting dot and comma at one extreme end and space in the other means "slalom typing". Going from one side to the other for oft-used combinations.

It is a very bad idea because you shift focus for new users, and you tie the two thumbs at extreme ends for the maximum possible duration. It is the least effective way.

Also , and . isnt expected at the left.

x-height is named that way because x never changes much, even comparitavly irrespective of what you put next to it. I guess what i should have said is that " is closer to the ascender-height than the baseline.