Ways To Fight/prevent Pandora Games Piracy

[atomicthumbs]

Even with the multiple commercial games for the GP2X, I haven't seen any pirated copies, even on [that site].

 

[OrR]

I guess the topic title is not ideal. I didn't really want to talk about preventing piracy but rather about getting more money into developers hands, whether it's through paying for games or donating. Discouraging piracy is only one aspect as should be clear from the whole first post.

 

[sinoth]

OrR has already mentioned this thread, but on TIGSource I found a comment that really hits home for me. Basically he is talking about the fact that 90% of people playing World of Goo online are using pirated copies, and that this isn't necessarily a bad thing. (from here):

QUOTE
Eventually, software developers and publishers will understand that unlicenced copying is part of your marketing effort - if anything you should facilitate it, which 2DBoy essentially has. It’s essentially the same return as you get by porting your game to a new platform - more people will see it, and they or someone they know may find it convenient to buy it. All you are selling is the service of playing your game, and many people will simply prefer to DIY - which means they combine the software package you provide with their own efforts. For some happy lucky people, the value of $20 is less than the perceived cost of that effort and they will simply buy the game. If you do want to raise their number, resolve to fight poverty in all its forms so there is more wealth to be spent on totally ephemeral luxuries like a video game.

Personally I would never have heard of this game if I’d not seen it on a BT tracker. I’m interested in game design but won’t ever buy it - I really don’t even have time to play it - but the fact that I can see it, appreciate it, and maybe recommend it to a family or two that I know means that I do have some involvement with 2DBoy and their business process - I am a word-of-mouth marketer, compensated for my time and effort only by the availability of the software package itself. The brilliance of BT is that the marginal cost of that marketing possibility to the publisher is zero.


So yeah, to add my .2 to the thread, I think games should use no DRM, but offer some kind of community features only available to those with valid keys. Even single player games can benefit from this, with stuff like high-scores and achievements.

 

[truekaiser]

I have to add that I'm pretty sure the OMAP3530 has hardware level software protection/DRM.

yea by replacing drm with spyware and removing your control of the data used for the games(backups because hard drives do fail and isp's kind of frown on someone downloading multi gig files).

edit: a open platform designed around the idea that the user is in control cannot have drm without compromising that ideal. This is because the sole purpose of drm is to protect the system from /you/. so you can either have a open platform or one that has drm, choose one.

 

[OrR]

Please, add something intelligent to the thread or go away. What you posted does not make any sense as far as I can tell.

OrR has already mentioned this thread, but on TIGSource I found a comment that really hits home for me. Basically he is talking about the fact that 90% of people playing World of Goo online are using pirated copies, and that this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The question is really, why did they not pay for the game? Already spent all money on other games? In that case, piracy is somewhat excusable. If there are other reasons, like being too lazy, too greedy etc, these are things that cannot be prevented but at least in some way discouraged. It's important that the players are not discouraged to get the game but instead encouraged to spend money on it.

Edit:

edit: a open platform designed around the idea that the user is in control cannot have drm without compromising that ideal. This is because the sole purpose of drm is to protect the system from /you/. so you can either have a open platform or one that has drm, choose one.

As long as you are not forced to use DRM software, the system is still open. It's your choice whether you use open source software, closed source software or DRM software. It is an open system because that choice is available. If DRM would be forbidden, it would not be an open system.
The Pandora is not ideally open anyway. At least the graphics driver will be closed source. (I'm not sure about other drivers.)

 

[conso]

we may think about a pre-donation system. For example we might ask icculus if he would be interested to port one of the games he ported to linux to the pandora (prey is probably impossible, but he has done several other jobs and... who knows?)
Then we hire him to do so and basically pay him for the port, not each game itself. The data must be obtained with a legal copy of the original game (to make the publishers happy)

Would be amazing.

 

[Prometheus]

I'm glad you've made this thread. This is something well worth discussing.

Personally I'd love to be able to purchase software for the Pandora, and know that I wouldn't have to deal with the various nightmares associated with DRM - both in the short term and long-term. (Been there, done that - I bought a bargain-bin-priced game for about £1 earlier this year that was known to work well with WINE, but it turned out to be infected with SecuROM, and this information wasn't disclosed by the software or its packaging or its literature in any way. SecuROM would only authenticate the disc once after every fifty or so attempts. I only managed to actually run the game twice, for what it's worth, and indeed it worked well when it did authenticate, but in the end it just wasn't worth the hassle to try to use it. :lol: ).

Create a positive atmosphere towards spending money in the community.
See also my sig. There could be badges you can wear on forums if you have bought a game or donated certain amounts to the dev fund. Sort of similar to the Xbox gamertag stuff. Since the community is tightly knit and forum staff, software and hardware developers and sellers are often the same people, organizing this should be possible.
Possible problem: Homebrew games, GPL software and pirated roms for old gaming systems are for free. Some people might expect to get everything for free. They have to learn that the money they save on those things should be spent on donations and commercial games (and maybe even Pandora merch) to support the continued existence of the system.

I'd have to say that I like this very much, and I'll certainly try to help out as best I can here. This fits in with how I personally see such things, even with regard to emulated stuff (I don't know how many other people view things as I do, but I only ever emulate games I already own - that is, emulation, to me, is a means of using what I've already paid for, but on other platforms; The only exception here is old stuff that's been made legally free by its creators, obviously. ).

I must admit that I'm not too sure about the "forum badges" part, though - but that's just me. Would writing reviews of purchased software, and linking to them in a signature be of any benefit? (Both to promote the software itself, and to give attention to the fact that it's worth paying for good stuff, for example.)

QUOTE
(and maybe even Pandora merch)

<slightly off-topic> To make a comment on this as an aside; I'd quite like that, I think. Even more so if it's something useful for the machine itself - for example, say, a flash-drive with the Pandora logo and URL, for storing documents and videos ripped from my DVD collection on when travelling. </slightly off-topic>

QUOTE

Create benefits for paying customers while giving the basic game away for free or ignoring piracy.
In addition to a game license, or as a thanks for a donation, a player would get an account. This account could include bonus content such as additional levels, exchange for user made levels, behind the scenes stuff, access to early betas, online play on official servers, whatever you can think of really. The basic game would work offline but using it online with the account would have benefits. An account would be rather difficult to fake. Every game could of course use it's own account system but a unified central system would make a lot of sense because you could then be rewarded for buying a few games by getting in on an early beta of an upcoming game etc.


I'm not *too* sure about the account thing, due to concerns (it's likely just me ) about not being able to fully use something I'd paid for when not connected to the internet (when gaming, I would most often not be connected, I suspect), but I do like this concept, too.

As an aside, I think it would be nice if - where feasible - a purchase might get you a copy of the software on physical media with a custom label (custom packaging and manuals optional, and likely not important - but nice to imagine ), with the bonus content included. This could possibly negate having to be online (well, with the exception of the online play stuff, of course) to reap the benefits of a purchase, perhaps.

The above is probably too expensive to do, I know - I just like the idea of being able to purchase a "retail"-style Pandora game, I guess. :lol: I would love the opportunity to do so.

I don't have a lot else to add, so I'll end my post here, for now.

EDIT: Actually, I should add something, since a LOT of discussion magically popped up in this thread while I was typing my reply. :lol: I just want to make it clear that I do understand that some won't want to produce anything for the platform if there's no perceived "protection" in the form of DRM - I do get that (it just didn't seem worth mentioning at first). I suppose the easiest way of putting it is that I agree with others that it would be preferable if it weren't there, but I could understand if some non-intrusive, non-painful, non-nuisance form *had* to be used in some circumstances.

 

[lucidchaos]

Looking at some of the most successful business models, if I were to release a game hoping to get the most cash out of it I would make it as convenient as possible to buy the game, hopefully more convenient than stealing it.

Some key examples:
Nintendo's Wii Shop channel: I can browse and buy a title within a few minutes, and it is easier to play than even going through my emulators. I spent probably about $150+ on these games simply on the merit of convenience.

iTunes: Yeah, people can steal the music, but it is simply more convenient to buy the music with a seamless experience.

Amazon.com: I just bought my wife an eeepc, shipped to me for free, without even taking out my wallet. My address and credit information was already on hand since I've ordered with them before. One minute and $375 later I was amazed at how easy it was.

So if I could purchase software from the pandora store, at a reasonable price, and have it zapped into my pandora like magic with no DRM, I would be a happy guy.

 

[truekaiser]

Amazon.com: I just bought my wife an eeepc, shipped to me for free, without even taking out my wallet. My address and credit information was already on hand since I've ordered with them before. One minute and $375 later I was amazed at how easy it was.

Actually it's strongly recomended that one does not let sites store credit card information so it can be automaticly filled in on the next purchase incase their web server's get breached.

 

[lucidchaos]

If I didn't trust the site to keep my information secure I wouldn't have ordered with them.

Worst case scenario: Someone breaches the server, steals my credit info, racks up a bunch of debt on my card, I dispute it, amazon.com can not prove I was the purchaser, I get a full refund, amazon.com's reputation suffers as the breach makes the news. Obviously they're going to take some -=serious=- precautions against this happening. While it certainly is a possibility, I'm not too worried about it.

Give me convenience or give me death.

edit: removed quote

 

[sinoth]

The question is really, why did they not pay for the game? [...] It's important that the players are not discouraged to get the game but instead encouraged to spend money on it.

In my eyes, the best way to get people to spend money is loyalty. Look at the developer of Dwarf Fortress - he provides a full game, free of charge, yet is able to be fully supported by donations. And not just one time donations, there are people that give him money monthly to continue developing the game. That is intense loyalty. I'm not saying its feasible for every dev team to have loyalty like that, but you need that personal connection with the players. To build loyalty, you have to take care of the players which can be as simple as a non-intrusive, non-DRM'd install.

 

[OrR]

we may think about a pre-donation system. For example we might ask icculus if he would be interested to port one of the games he ported to linux to the pandora (prey is probably impossible, but he has done several other jobs and... who knows?)
Then we hire him to do so and basically pay him for the port, not each game itself. The data must be obtained with a legal copy of the original game (to make the publishers happy)

Would be amazing.


If I understand you right, you are talking about some kind of bounty system. This can be great but it can also be problematic. It is important that bounties are very clearly defined and that they are organized well to prevent useless parallel development. A bounty could make things happen but if not handled right, it could also create a lot of bad blood.

Would writing reviews of purchased software, and linking to them in a signature be of any benefit? (Both to promote the software itself, and to give attention to the fact that it's worth paying for good stuff, for example.)

Of course! All publicity is good publicity. Then at the bottom of the review there could be a big "buy" button and you could get 5% of every game purchased through that button from the store you link to or something like that. Just an idea.

I'm not *too* sure about the account thing, due to concerns (it's likely just me ) about not being able to fully use something I'd paid for when not connected to the internet (when gaming, I would most often not be connected, I suspect), but I do like this concept, too.

With a handheld like the Pandora, an internet connection is not always available so to play the main game, one should not be required. However, for playing online, getting additional levels etc. you'd need to be connected to the internet and thus account authentication can be required for that stuff.

 

[bagmouse7]

The only reason I am going to buy a Pandora is to play emulators.
If we can get MAME and most of the 8 bit and 16 bit emulators running on the nice Pandora hardware I will be totally satisifed!

 

[Prometheus]

Of course! All publicity is good publicity. Then at the bottom of the review there could be a big "buy" button and you could get 5% of every game purchased through that button from the store you link to or something like that. Just an idea.

You know, I actually didn't think of adding a purchase link to such reviews (I wouldn't want any percentages or anything, mind you - I'd just want to link to the software ). I guess that's a must-do, now.

QUOTE

With a handheld like the Pandora, an internet connection is not always available so to play the main game, one should not be required. However, for playing online, getting additional levels etc. you'd need to be connected to the internet and thus account authentication can be required for that stuff.


Ah, I see. I misinterpreted what you meant - since the whole issue of DRM was on my mind, I ended up thinking that you'd (for example) have to be signed in and online in order to make any use of extra features in a (for example) single-player game, or suchlike, and that once you were offline that content wouldn't be accessible again until you were next connected (like, in the vein of some - largely theoretical nowadays, but I seem to recall at least one somewhat high-profile case along these lines - DRM nightmares that won't let you play at all, even in single-player mode, unless you connect to the internet first). :lol: Do pardon me for misinterpreting - evidently I can be a bit of a doofus sometimes.

 

[second exodous]

After reading articles on this I am just going to say DRM or no DRM the game will be pirated just as much, the same ratio of those who illegally to those who go about means that compensate for the work of the artists. I don't think you can ever make a system where it is impossible to steal when it comes to digital media. It is impossible, look at blu-ray, it is impossible. Think of any game, any move, any TV show and then look for the .torrent file, DRM doesn't work and never will. If you aren't tech savvy enough someone else is and made it easy for you to get.

Now lets look at Pandora and what they could do. Basically no matter what the Pandora team does, works or not, Nintendo, Mircrosoft, Sony, and others will tell people it doesn't work and will back that up with money so the developers will put their media on their hardware. The Pandora will be for small developers that will want to put their media on one more system to squeeze just a little more profit or reach a few more people. Which, btw, I prefer, I would like this to be small as far as games go, open source software has everything else covered.

I want to say get more education to the people but all that leads to is the RIAA and similar organization filling our children full of lies of Metalica and the creators of spore going broke.

 

[sephiroth111]

well, you could do it like the DS did it, or the way steam does it.

personally i like steam, and it's the only way I'll buy games, unless there is a treasure chest of stuff that comes with the boxed version (a la fallout3)

steam validates every time the game is loaded if they are connected to the internet. if offline mode is selected, then the game wont be able to play online, and after a few days, must be re-validated. While that sounds restrictive, on a pc it's none too bad, since you have to have a net connection to download the games anyway. but, on the pandora, the thing is mobile. considering the fact that wifi is almost EVERYWHERE except in highly rural areas, or the woods and stuff (unless bears have wifi, which is frightening and awesome at the same time) that sort of validation/DRM scheme isn't so bad. If the person cheats, they aren't allowed on VAC anti-cheat servers, there is a pretty big community, if a person pirates, well, their account is locked and they allow for chat between players. to me, that sounds like an absolutely badass system, and ultimately the way I'd proceed with anti-piracy.

Not to mention that the DRM in steam is seamless. you dont need the disk. just a functioning net connection. Assuming that the system was tightly integrated with the system's OS, then it'd work. otherwise, people could figure out a way to hack it.

and obviously, steam isn't perfect. but hey, it gives people a way to buy the game, play it, communicate, and read descriptions.

 

[Xanas]

If you want people to buy make games that people will want to buy. It's really not anymore complicated than that. On the flipside, if you have a game that people like people will find a way to download it if they don't want to pay for it (or feel they can't afford it, regardless of the truth of that or not). You can never get more from people than they are willing to spend on you. Focus on making something good enough they'd rather buy from you than someone else. There is limited money in the world. Ultimately to buy your game they have to not buy something else. Make your game good enough that loyal and honest people will spend it on you instead.

I'm fine with promoting the ethic that people should buy what they enjoy, like, and contribute to what they want most. This is I think the only reasonable way to act. A pure anti-copying ethic is contrived and unreasonable. DRM may force some people to buy but it will ultimately destroy reaching anyone who hates DRM and won't help for those willing to crack it.

I would rather not have commercial games than have a DRM friendly environment on the Pandora. I do not hate commercial games, I buy quite a few of them, and I buy several that have DRM. But I use cracks for all of those games because I despise being forced to arbitrarily put a CD in the drive. The newer DRM that requires net activation is sometimes a little better, but then it flips out and decides I shouldn't be allowed to use the game on other PCs that I own. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to pay for 2+ copies of a game for someone who may come over to my house every once in awhile. There was a day not so long ago when I remember Blizzard having "spawned copies" to promote LAN and now everyone wants to force every LAN player into purchasing a copy for every machine they have regardless of whether it's going to get used much or not. (I'm fine with CD keys and all of that to prevent online play by multiple people, that I don't take issue with at all, it's just preventing LAN play that annoys me).

 

[Alpha2]

to be honest I'd rather not see official games for the system simply because it's stock and trade are games that other people made being played for free already. It's almost silly to hope you never see these games cracked when most of what you're playing on it is free anyway.

That's not to say I'm against someone charging for a game if the quality shows through and I dont have to leap through ungodly hurdles to play them if I do choose to buy it, but if you're making a game for a system that will likely be playing torrented movies, MP3s and ROMS 80% of the time it's on for most people, and your game finds a way to never be pirated... ever? Then you're either the luckiest guy in the world or you make crappy apps.

 

[Prophet]

OrR you know me... I will buy indie handheld games if they deserve it.

Get me Bike Or Die on Pandora and I will pay the money and deal wiith DRM if I must. But DRM does suck and nobody wants it. Yet if it's the only way to get some good professional indie games on Pandora, I will accept it.

However, I will be much more judgmental about buying if DRM is used.

And demos are a MUST. Hopefully all devs realize that much by now.

 

[pat]

I'm making arcade cabs right now.

I hope there will be games that could run on the pandora chip so i will add this chip to my cabinets.
I hope to find develpers that like that idea and great games for it.
Arcade cabs can be a new way the make some publicity for games that run on this chip.

Does anybody know if it's possible to run linux mugen on this chip ??