Ways To Fight/prevent Pandora Games Piracy

[PoisonedV]

I like the community idea-
stuff like achievements, for starters.
There was some PC gaming service that had this stuff nicely integrated (not steam)
you could get achievements, manage high scores, download levels, compare stuff with friends, access exclusive non-gameplay content like behind the scenes videos, etc. the game itself isn't crippled for pirates OR consumers, but the overall experience will suck for pirates compared to customers. the extra content isn't something you would need constantly- so having to log onto the site to use it, as people rally against steam for needing to be connected, it just isn't a big issue.
I'm tired, sorry if that made no sense

 

[Gilrad]

I'm all for unobtrusive DRM, but if it's an offline app or a single player game, screw DRM. All relevant arguments against DRM apply here--the "customers are criminals" mentality, the fact it really won't stop piracy, ect. ect. They've all been addressed, so I'll just say there is no benefit for having DRM on a system that is not connected.

For multiplayer, online, or any kind of functionality that requires connectivity, however, I say go for it. A properly transparent server-side serial generation mechanic can be near impossible to decode and crack into, and won't get in the way of the user at all.

As a once frequent pirate (temporarily retired due to underpowered hardware), I would often find myself buying games simply for the multiplayer/online functionality, so I think there is merit along these lines.

 

[audovoice]

I agree that it might be a good idea to have an accepted unified DRM system to ensure that people know what the license they get includes and what it prevents. The stuff in my first post was not meant only as an alternative to DRM but also as an addition to DRM. It would be great if developers could simply not use any DRM at all and still get payed but I am not sure if we can create that kind of climate. If we can't, I'd like to make sure that the DRM system used is as fair and unproblematic as possible. An official DRM system could encourage this.

Hardware reinforced DRM is a different animal entirely and I want no part of it. I will probably still get a Pandora but I find it very distressing. It is not like if you don't like DRM don't get the software, it is like if you don't get DRM software you won't notice the privileges on your own system that are revoked, because it is not the software it is the hardware you own, and that loss of privileges is always there.

This all really upsets me. I know secure computing is the way of the future (meaning some people would like all new computers to have this) but I plan on never buying a computer that has it and I hope to god that the whole computing model fails. It rubs me the wrong way in so many ways. I think it was just built into the hardware and no one really knew about it. I keep rationalizing how this is not so bad but I am not really ok with it.

Blame it on an anti police state mentality if you want to. There are some games I really would pay for, but there is what the game is worth to me, how much it would need to be worth to them to port it, how much the game is worth in other markets, and how much they could charge for it because some people would not flinch at $20 for a port of a 10 year old game.

I would pay $10 for Fallout 1&2 (maybe $15 for the bundle) to get them running as a native port on my personal hypothetical Pandora. I bought them both when they were new and bought a double pack of the 2 games years later (but still over 5 years ago) for $10 because CDs get lost. They have a little bit of a specialty market for old games online and can sell some really old games for super cheap in stores but they are not really making much money of that title any more just the franchise (new games). If maybe a 1,000 people bought Fallout 1&2 for Pandora it would have been profitable to port. When simcity 3000 was ported to the iPhone they sold it for a 9.99 and they actually put effort into dealing with screen size issues (I know that it is a much bigger market but this does nothing to invalidate my point). On this board recently we saw warcraft 2 running in an emulator. But would you pay $2 or maybe $1 to get it running native. If maybe 10,000 units of Pandora existed it would still probably be worth it to port. There are hundreds of ancient titles that are not otherwise selling and would make a small but profitable amount of money to port.

Maybe there is some better way to do it. Put together a slush fund to get the go ahead to port it. Or for more sensitive software to get the go ahead for them to port it. Or maybe get a large enough people to preorder it and then any one else can buy it for the same price once it is ported. Some people would. Some people would try to pirate it.

But I am dead set against the implementation of this M-Shield crap. I don't mind the old DRM software crap, even when it actually worked. It is their program but I want all privileges on my device. If I wanted to have to jailbreak something I would get an iPod.

 

[mahousaru]

There are plenty of ways for devs to make money if they think outside of the box. Stardock imho were pretty clever about the way they marketed their no DRM game, not only did I buy it because it was a pretty good game, but I just had to make a point.

The other thing that paying for the game other then satisfaction was using the serial key with it, you could download additional stuff.

Other examples are like Guild Wars which is still a pay once game but account based. Or WoW which is not only account based but with those monthly fees is making some people (probably not the devs) really happy

 

[Trip]

OrR you know me... I will buy indie handheld games if they deserve it.

Get me Bike Or Die on Pandora and I will pay the money and deal wiith DRM if I must. But DRM does suck and nobody wants it. Yet if it's the only way to get some good professional indie games on Pandora, I will accept it.

However, I will be much more judgmental about buying if DRM is used.

And demos are a MUST. Hopefully all devs realize that much by now.

+1

I like the way that Yaun Works handled the issue with Wind and Water: Puzzle Battles.

They didn't use any DRM but they offered a great demo, low price and people who paid got lots of extras including the ability to upload high scores on-line for comparison against other players (+ of course continued updates and improvements of the game).

Due to all this, it's the only game I've paid out for in over 5 years

 

[Prometheus]

but, on the pandora, the thing is mobile. considering the fact that wifi is almost EVERYWHERE except in highly rural areas, or the woods and stuff (unless bears have wifi, which is frightening and awesome at the same time) that sort of validation/DRM scheme isn't so bad.

I'm sure it's not so bad if you happen to live in a country where WiFi is that widespread. However, not everyone does. (It's certainly not almost everywhere here in the UK, and the majority of public hotspots as far as I'm aware require payment to use. )

 

[benjymous]

There are similar arguments going on about how to make people buy new games over preordered copies in shops (If you buy a new game, the original developer will get 5-10% of the shelf price - if you get it second hand, 100% of the price goes back to the shop, and the developer gets nothing - it also doesn't get counted in sales charts, so developers have no idea how many copies are *really* selling)

One solution is to include a voucher in the box that gets you something extra - like bonus levels, a free t-shirt, beta access to the next game, etc. This voucher can only be used once, so it gives extra value to the original purchaser that won't be got from buying a 2nd hand copy.

To be honest, I'll probably just give my games away, as it's far too much paperwork to go through with my employer to get the tax issues sorted out for actually making a profit! (Though I might get some tshirts made and do deluxe versions for people who donate!)

 

[nimnimnim]

EDIT: sorry for not reading thread first, being redundant

Not intending to reply to the question at hand with attitude (as it's a good question)... But one end one could focus on might be doujin stuff. Perhaps creators like Kenta and ZUN for instance would look at the situation with more enthusiasm even if the conclusion would be that it wouldn't be safe against piracy (heck Kenta Cho's Tumiki Fighters port on Wii didn't even credit the original game (title) or its creator to any fair measure :/).
Apart from wipeout games I find most commercial games less long lived than equally celebrated (at first at least) doujin titles such as by those dudes.

I'd pay merely to support the developer for good modern doujin hori stg/rng and fighting games but I guess that's beside the point.

But to add something constructive anyway (which may apply to both lanes) I'd say physical bonus paraphernalia all the way. Either go big time (box and figurine) or just mail padded envelopes with an official SD card (printing labels should be possible with a modern pc printer and the right paper no?) and something to cater to the fanboy collector in the consumer and take advantage of the doujin sellers possibility to actually do it himself by hand and perhaps give out something more personal (signature or anything).

One further cool idea could be for the developer to take some bonus video material or bonus levels, character, ship etc or source code or anything and include a segment (of bare data or of split compressed archive?) of it on each sent game SD card and encourage users to share their segments online so in the end all the 100+ files would be available for everyone and only after all the unique segments were sold (assuring bare profit minimum?) could all of it, or any of it at all be enjoyed depending on how the data is split.
No restriction would be made to the liberty to copy. Some amount of packages would have to be sold for everyone to enjoy all the extra and in the end you'd even end up with an encouragement from the seller to share information

 

[OrR]

Some interesting ideas you've got there! Getting creative is certainly one major way to bring in the money. I think one big reason for the success of Wind and Water was the option to get your own character drawn. Your puzzle idea is interesting. Maybe ship a game with a customized level for everyone who pays 30$. The player could then get to decide whether they want to share "their" level or not. A bare version of the game without customization could be available for 10$.

 

[Perky_Goth]

If the person cheats, they aren't allowed on VAC anti-cheat servers, there is a pretty big community, if a person pirates, well, their account is locked

And if they think you did something wrong, so much for your games too. Very friendly.

As for Stardock, they release very unfinished games that must be patched while online. I consider that DRM.

 

[bustaballs]

I remember when I downloaded a copy of Gothic 3, I enjoyed it so much that I bought an original copy less than a week afterwords. When I mentioned this on the Gothic forums I was banned.

 

[Megagun]

ect. ect.

*etc.
sorry, couldn't help it..

About games and piracy, here's my take on it...

1) Provide the user with a LENGTHY demo or access to the full game for free through the repositories or other easy-to-access from-pandora file repository (no PC should be needed to get it).
2) Give them more levels/content/support/whatever if they pay for the game. Maybe even a leveleditor that creates pay-version-only levels for those that bought it.
3) Make sure the game isn't overpriced; allow the user to specify how much they want to pay for it with a minimum that you specify (2 dollars for a puzzle game, perhaps; certainly not 9 dollars as a minimum)
4) Make sure that you can buy the game without the need for a PC.

Now, you might wonder why I'm pretty much 'giving away the game' with this idea...
First of all, you should recognize that the majority of stuff is made available through BitTorrent nowadays, and that *MANY* people will pirate a game since it's not too much of a hassle, and since they will then be able to play the full game instead of the demo if they so desire (usually, people won't even try the demo, instead play the full game already from the start)...
Now, if you make the demo easilly downloadable through the repositories, and the demo is fairly large (pretty much a 'full game'), people will instead download the thing from the repositories. If they however know that the demo is rather limited, they might want to opt in for the piracy way instead.

Myself, I had pirated World of Goo, since I heard the demo was fairly limited yet I still wanted to try the game out.
Played it, learnt that the game wasn't for me. Deleted it from my harddrive. Did I help piracy there? Since I might've gotten the thing through Bittorrent (not sure; could've been Usenet too, really), yes, slightly, by seeding.

Seeding through bittorrent shouldn't be too important with small games, but for larger >300MB games, it might make things less convenient, and they'll buy the game instead or try the non-limited long-time-play demo.

Really, I could see one of those games like B'lox! to do well as a "full game" with a "More levels + leveleditor? Buy now!" notice after you've finished the game (100 levels!). I bet that a lot of people (pretty much everyone who finished the game; not sure how many that would be) would buy it then, simply to further their addiction.

 

[Pseudonym]

but, on the pandora, the thing is mobile. considering the fact that wifi is almost EVERYWHERE except in highly rural areas, or the woods and stuff (unless bears have wifi, which is frightening and awesome at the same time) that sort of validation/DRM scheme isn't so bad.

I'm sure it's not so bad if you happen to live in a country where WiFi is that widespread. However, not everyone does. (It's certainly not almost everywhere here in the UK, and the majority of public hotspots as far as I'm aware require payment to use. )

I must second this, since I live in a place with minimal Wi-Fi. So if that kind of Authentication is required, the developers just lost 10% - 20% of their audience. I also hope that although some proprietary software will be available, some 100% FOSS software is accessible.

 

[Svartalf]

Steam is setting an example on how to do it without DRM, and a lot of companies and indie developers are using it as a platform. A service similar to that, would work very well I think.

Heh... Steam IS providing DRM...

 

[(naw)mcx]

Steam is setting an example on how to do it without DRM, and a lot of companies and indie developers are using it as a platform. A service similar to that, would work very well I think.

Heh... Steam IS providing DRM...

But Steam is awesome, and we should all love it.

 

[MDave]

Steam is setting an example on how to do it without DRM, and a lot of companies and indie developers are using it as a platform. A service similar to that, would work very well I think.

Heh... Steam IS providing DRM...


I meant spore-like DRM the sort that cripples the game.

One time quick validation check after installing the game/app or when switched over to another SD card/storage device, and that's all would be best.

Now you can't complain about it having to be done online when that's where the games and apps are distributed in the first place Oh and unlimited Off-line play of course too. That is what gets me sometimes with steam, when you switch providers or you move residence.

 

[PoisonedV]

Steam is setting an example on how to do it without DRM, and a lot of companies and indie developers are using it as a platform. A service similar to that, would work very well I think.

Heh... Steam IS providing DRM...

But Steam is awesome, and we should all love it.

steam is vastly overrated. its annoying to not be able to play games while offline (which is the only time I would ever play single player games like hl2 and portal, anyway) VAC is extremely flawed to the degree that I got banned for using a G15 plugin for reading stats, not everyone wants to update their games just to play, half the time it has errors connecting to the steam server which means you cant play OR talk to steam friends, also its just a really unstable and ram hogging application

also a good way for 'drm' would be to authenticate on updates. this doesnt hamper anyone by not having a connection, because you wouldnt be downloading updates in the first place, but it does hamper pirates.. don't disable the game necessarily, just dont let them get the updates...

 

[truekaiser]

Please, add something intelligent to the thread or go away. What you posted does not make any sense as far as I can tell.

As long as you are not forced to use DRM software, the system is still open. It's your choice whether you use open source software, closed source software or DRM software. It is an open system because that choice is available. If DRM would be forbidden, it would not be an open system.
The Pandora is not ideally open anyway. At least the graphics driver will be closed source. (I'm not sure about other drivers.)


Let me spell it out for you. this is what steam does.

• Quietly collects stats on your behavior while playing steam games. Mostly without your knowledge, it only asks you when they want to do their hardware survey.
• Requires a constant internet connection to install games, while it does allow you to play them in 'offline mode' it will after a few days of this lock you out of the game till you reconnect.
• Requires you to download multi gigabyte files. Internet Service Providers DO NOT LIKE YOU DOING THIS.
• Games as stated are in one large file and if that file gets corrupted, OPPS your going to have to re-download all that data again.
• You are forced to update games even if the update borks your save files.
• When(not if) valve goes under, your games now can't be played because there is no steam server for steam to be constantly connected too. Double opps.

as for the open platform. it is otherwise you would be stopping the attempt to get a foss driver for the video chip. Also allowing someone to remove freedom from you makes it a non-free platform. the only drm that would attract third party devs to this platform, if made, is one that will by hardware disable execution of any programs from any other medium then the game sd card upon insertion into the pandora.

 

[PoisonedV]

No, allowing people to have the CHOICE to develop DRM'd software and to USE DRM'd software is EXACTLY what makes it free.
besides. what does this have to do with Steam?
also, how else are you going to download 'multi gigabyte files'? what other method is tehre to get it?

 

[Mr.Gonzo]

The best way would be to hire an army of Computer technicians ninjas to track every person who downloads pirated games.

But then i'd be dead...


DRM or Not it will get pirated.
My idea for my game would be to give a choice to the person that wants the game to pay from 0$ ( if they write 0 they wont be sent to the credit card page ) to XXXX$ dollars for the game.
Then be sent to the download page.

Then i'd just copyright that shit so no one can distribute it other than me.
so if some guy offer free download on his site... saying that i do the same
i can sue his ass.
So they won't they will just link my download page.

that seems like a reasonable solution to me.
Some people wont give a penny but other people are ready to donate a 100$ ...
( that's an actual fact )

just my thoughts ...