Trying to find a fair solution

[b_o_b]

There was a comment in passing that could be interpreted that way but nothing concrete...

Does sound like Craig. 

 

[ekianjo]

ne particular thing that upsets me the most is how poorly Craigix's handled ICP 2. If that project was a success, then may be he could do his part to pay off those debt.

Craig even mentioned he used some ICP2 funds to pay back for Pandora refunds (even though that's two separate companies). But he is so much full of BS who knows what to believe anymore.

Be careful what you re- enforce as fact... There was a comment in passing that could be interpreted that way but nothing concrete...

WHere did I mention this was a fact ? I even clearly said "who knows what to believe anymore".

By the way I question the "fact" that Craig may ever have been in financial trouble as well. For all we know it's just another hoax from him.

 

[mcobit]

When Craig has finacial trouble he will live from fish and instant noodles again.


And post about it here.

 

[ShleeDragon]

At this stage, I think I would be tempted to set a cut off for this, like:

From now until the 1st March, 2014, ED is willing to take on orders from Craig's queue for the prices he quoted. His personal favoured outcome would be each and every remaining pre-order from Craig's queue to stump up the cash, get the device and move on with a happy community. That said, anyone that does not upgrade by 1st March, 2014, will not be able to switch their order to ED. After this date, if you still have an order with Craig, it is down to you and Craig to resolve this. Beyond this point, the best ED will be able to do is offer a Pandora at cost (no win for ED, but at least he doesn't lose anything).

It is obviously not fair, but life isn't fair:

 - ED is doing a lot more than he needs to, why is he throwing away money, it isn't fair, but he is big hearted

 - The customer has already paid, waited a long time, and are now being asked for more money, this isn't fair (but it is a lot fairer than not even being offered the above)

 - A lot of people have paid less money and received their Pandora already, that isn't fair (but less complaints here)

If an email does go out, I would probably add a paragraph that makes it crystal clear ED is doing this out of kindness not legal obligation. I'd also give exact numbers (exact as possible), of how many orders are left for each unit, how many units he has shipped since taking over production and (as he already has) state that no money will be taken until the device ships. Also worth noting that the average delivery time is X days since the start of 2013 (hopefully X days is short),

Come 2nd March next year, it is over! ED has been more than fair, but he has also put a line under all of this mess. At last it will be over. Maybe the deadline will encourage a lot of users to put up the extra notes and be done with it. Of course there will be some customers left at the end with no Pandora, but at that point there is nothing more ED can do.

I like this "deadline" idea - things have been dragging on long enough already. For those who want to take the 1GHz option but don't have the money right now and not even by the time of the deadline, it could be allowed to make their decision before the deadline and pay (and get their unit) later.

Let's pull this bandaid off. Deadline is realistic and that's what we're aiming for. I think this thread has gone on long enough.

Ed could easily just create a new product on his store with a password given to the preorders... that gives them first come first served access to the 1Ghz units until the cut off.

 

[PokeParadox]

ne particular thing that upsets me the most is how poorly Craigix's handled ICP 2. If that project was a success, then may be he could do his part to pay off those debt.

Craig even mentioned he used some ICP2 funds to pay back for Pandora refunds (even though that's two separate companies). But he is so much full of BS who knows what to believe anymore.

Be careful what you re- enforce as fact... There was a comment in passing that could be interpreted that way but nothing concrete...

WHere did I mention this was a fact ? I even clearly said "who knows what to believe anymore".


By the way I question the "fact" that Craig may ever have been in financial trouble as well. For all we know it's just another hoax from him.

I didn't say you stated it as fact but you re=enforced it as fact. By this I mean that it's very easy for an angry preorderer to see your comment and take it as fact, more so if they know you run the blog. This only adds fuel to the fire of an already messy situation.
What I'm saying is that you should be careful what you say, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[ekianjo]

I didn't say you stated it as fact but you re=enforced it as fact.

I don't understand your comment. So just talking about a possibility makes it a fact?

So, like, "there may have been aliens at Roswell" makes it a fact just because I write it ? That does not make sense.

 

[b_o_b]

there have been aliens at Roswell

Ah ha! I knew it!

 

[Binky]

I'm mainly posting this because I like clear things in tables.

If you are one of Craig's unfulfilled preorderers then:

Craig / Openpandora Ltd:

• Received your payment for a pandora
• Owes you either a pandora or a refund
• Seems unlikely to ever deliver either
• Seems to have financial problems

ED / Openpandora Gmbh:

• Never received money from you for a pandora
• Is legally separate, and so does not owe you anything
• Is trying to ship pandoras to those whom Craig seems to have abandoned
• Is able to offer a huge discount to anyone with an unfulfilled OP Ltd order.

 

[T.T.]

Because the "intermediate" price for a Rebirth unit would be about 290 EUR, so nobody would choose that option if they can get a 1GHz unit for just 10 EUR more...

Oh, I wasn't aware of that, and you're right, at that price I'd just get the extra ten and go for it.

Also, if there happen to be any preorderers out there reading this thread and yelling at the screen, I'm in craigs queue, and I think this is completely fair.

 

[chetc]

Because the "intermediate" price for a Rebirth unit would be about 290 EUR, so nobody would choose that option if they can get a 1GHz unit for just 10 EUR more...

Oh, I wasn't aware of that, and you're right, at that price I'd just get the extra ten and go for it.

Also, if there happen to be any preorderers out there reading this thread and yelling at the screen, I'm in craigs queue, and I think this is completely fair.

Ditto.  I'm also in Craig's queue, and I'm anxious for this offer to become official.

 

[ekianjo]

Craig / Openpandora Ltd:

• Received your payment for a pandora
• Owes you either a pandora or a refund
• Seems unlikely to ever deliver either
• Seems to have financial problems
• Seriously seems to give a f*** about his clients and their money
  
• Is a fraud

Here, I fixed that for you.

 

[xiongxioi]

When Craig has finacial trouble he will live from fish and instant noodles again.


And post about it here.

That is unexpectedly humorous to me for some reason. That "and post about it here" is truly golden, I feel a little bad for him though.

I hope he can at least deliver those ICP2s at some point down the line.

I would be very upset and pissed off if I find out he's selling ICP2s as chocolate in his shop.

 

[rohezal]

6 People did the poll:

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/14062-what-option-would-you-take-to-resolve-the-preorder-queue/?mode=show

When 50% of the 500 preorders take the 200€ upgrade this 250 * 100€ = 25000€ will be needed.  16% of 500 will take the 50€ classic Pandora = 80 * 50€ = 4000€. So it is 29000€ Euros. Is this possible?

If the 200€ would be increased to 250€ it would be: 50* 250 = 12500€ + 4000€ = 16500€. This would mean about 200 Pandoras to sell, right? The 29000€ would be be around 320 Pandoras to sell, or?

I am realy interessted what is possible and what needs to happen. With 200€ one sell funds one Preorder. With the 250€ one sell funds 2 preorder, right?

 

[MrConfusion]

I am realy interessted what is possible and what needs to happen. With 200€ one sell funds one Preorder. With the 250€ one sell funds 2 preorder, right?

Look, I see what you're after but what you're after is the current version of the queue. And ED has already said it will be served for now, as well as possible, but it won't ever get lost completely at this rate.

It's simple really, you just need to stop thinking about "how much you could get" and instead think of "how much you need".

When you think of it this way:

It takes roughly 300 euros to build a Pandora, any model, give or take a few tens of euros.

(And that doesn't include any support, returns handling, mailing etc. and of course just plain old "work" all of which which are not going to be insignificant for 500 orders!)

So, we need some 150000 (that's 4 zeros there) euros, give or take some thousands.

Assume everyone pays 200 (i.e. 100000 from upgrades) and you'd still need 50000 euros from somewhere.

Not everyone will pay the 200, most won't pay anything. So 50000 will not cover it, you'd need more.

And not a single one of that huge amount of units makes any profit. It's not fair to request from ED to pour all his profits for years to come into this endless hole.

There, all calculations done.

Just won't work, not anymore, too many orders to fullfill, can't be shuffled anymore, simple as that, just maths.

It's not what we want to see, but it is how it is.

 

[rohezal]

It's simple really, you just need to stop thinking about "how much you could get" and instead think of "how much you need".

This is why I made the poll. To get some numbers, to have a look what people would take. I thought most people would take the 50€ for a CC Pandora (with some waiting time for the donations) option. Looks like I am wrong. I wanted to find out how to give most people a Pandora. I am not a preorder. I allready have a rebirth pandora and I am happy with it. Still I want this mess be resolved. And I think we need data for it. We need to know how many people are going to buy a Pandora at what price, and then have a look if it is realistic to archieve the amount of needed to do it. Thinking about different scenarios and solutions and what solutions are realistic.

There are not enough people in the poll but if you extrapolate it:

16% will pay 300€ <- no money needed here

50% will pay 200€ <- 25000€

16% will pay 50€ (CC) <- 4000€

16% will wait <- not sure how to handle this


So it is 29000€ for the paying people. Is this possible? The people who want to wait will cost additional 80*300 = 24000€. Is this possible too? Would be 53000€.

Lets do an other solution, increase the ghz price to 250€ and don't change the percents:

16% will pay 300€ <- no money needed here

50% will pay 250€ <- 12500€

16% will pay 50€ (CC) <- 4000€

16% will wait <- not sure how to handle this

So it is 16500€ for the paying people. Is this possible? The people who want to wait will cost additional 80*300 = 24000€. Is this possible too? Would be 40500€. Still to much?

Lets cancel the waiting option and lets say the waiting people will pay 49€ since it is the cheapest version and they want something instead of nothing:

17% will pay 300€ <- no money needed here

50% will pay 250€ <- 12500€

33% will pay 50€ (CC) <- 8000€

This means 20500€. I think this are 200 Pandora sales. Is this possible? Are there are enough CC units to do this?

 

[ShleeDragon]

I want ED to pay 0€.

How about you calculate how much it will cost to fulfil the preorders and ask craig to write ED a check.... because ED can tell Craig the exact number to the cent.

 

[ekianjo]

Would be 40500€. Still to much?

I still fail to see why ED and ED's customers have to bear these costs just to save Craig's boat.

Why don't you drive a donation yourself if you are so concerned about this ? Or ring Craig again to remind him his customers are still waiting?

 

[rohezal]

Why don't you drive a donation yourself if you are so concerned about this ?

I am not very concerned about this. I won't do any action (except maybe donate a bit when I have some money). I just had some ideas, which might help to find a good solution. And I told them. Maybe I will have some more .

I still fail to see why ED and ED's customers have to bear these costs just to save Craig's boat.

I think this is not a normal project, it is something special. A very nice community where people help each other. This people helped to create the Pandora, it would be very hard to let them down. The 300€ for a Pandora plan is great, I thought with some additions it would work better. Not sure if I were right. This way I did the math and made the poll.

I want ED to pay 0€.

Same here, but I don't have a rich uncle .

 

[ekianjo]

A very nice community where people help each other.

Sorry to repeat myself but why isn't Craig expected to DO anything here?

 

[rohezal]

A very nice community where people help each other.

Sorry to repeat myself but why isn't Craig expected to DO anything here?

Let me correct this:

A very nice community where people help each other, which was abandoned by Craig, who had no money left and created a new company which has nothing to do with preorders. So we can't hope he will help, maybe when he has some ICP2 profits, but I don't think so. So I did not include Craig.

And to quote mister confusion:

It's not what we want to see, but it is how it is.

It is not about justice but getting as much as possible Pandoras delivered to the Preorders. Maybe my ideas will help. Maybe they are not good enough. But since there is a possibility that they could help, I wanted to talk about them .