Trying to find a fair solution

[timwylie]

And just so people can actually see (without the styles), here's the page from Dec. 2008 from archive.org. http://web.archive.org/web/20081204060820/http://www.openpandora.org/

Go down to the sept/oct. news.  The website lists the areas and where you should order from.  So the site makes it seem as if there is only one company, or there are four.  Who's site is pandoratr.com?  Please, feel free to tell me how someone NOT already familiar with the pandora community and given this official posting on the official website, is supposed to know that there are only two companies and they are completely separate entities.

 

[b_o_b]

All we want is a pandora.  Something we paid for at the same time and following the same directions listed on openpandora.org as everyone that has one.  The difference is that we don't have one.  If you're not in that boat, please back off.

Why should we back off? Guys like you might be responsible for stalling P2 development. As long as I haven't seen someone posting a detailed list of all legal actions they took to get their money or Pandora from the person who really is responsible I don't think you should complain at all. 

 

[timwylie]

Because it's my job to inform random strangers of legal actions I'm taking?

 

[timwylie]

Also, not that it's any of your damn business, I requested a refund- and I know I'll never see that money.  So you're welcome for supporting the pandora from day 1 (allowing it to get funding) and knowing I'll never get anything in return.

 

[ekianjo]

Actually on the thread here you said..   "Like, how much "baggage" are you willing to carry forward?  I just hope that all of this will not further negatively impact any potential Pandora successor. (like adding 100 Euros more to the planned price just to further support Craig's customers).   At one point you have to let things go."   How's that not the same as people getting nothing? And your trying to make out that I'm changing my story

Let thing go = stop supporting Craig customers when obviously there is no way there will be enough profits to do so.  

ED does not have to do that. You can go and bark at Craig instead. And as ED mentioned before, you knew where you were making your order when you placed it. It's not like it was random or something. 

The sad thing is that most people probably did not know what kind of person was Craig then, but that's Craig's responsibility in the end, not ED.

 

[timwylie]

And as ED mentioned before, you knew where you were making your order when you placed it. It's not like it was random or something.

Maybe you should go read my post above showing what the order page in 2008 looked like.

 

[ekianjo]

And as ED mentioned before, you knew where you were making your order when you placed it. It's not like it was random or something.

Maybe you should go read my post above showing what the order page in 2008 looked like.

Looked like that:

Or if you want to go direct to your local area:
Germany: http://www.gp2x.de/shop/index.php/cPath/34

The rest of Europe: http://openpandora.org/retro.html

Turkey & The Middle East: http://www.pandoratr.com/

North and Sound America, Australia, Japan, Korea and elsewhere :

http://gbax.com/pandorax.html 

Seems like there were clear differentiation in place for geographies to me.

 

[timwylie]

Exactly.  So since I'm in North America, according to the official pandora ordering instructions, I was supposed to order through the store I did.  Also, you can't tell that there are only 2 companies.  Either there is one with 4 geographic distribution points, or there are four businesses.  That's my point.  It is definitely NOT clear that there was only Craig or Ed.

 

[MrConfusion]

Or if you want to go direct to your local area:
Germany: http://www.gp2x.de/shop/index.php/cPath/34

The rest of Europe: http://openpandora.org/retro.html

Turkey & The Middle East: http://www.pandoratr.com/

North and Sound America, Australia, Japan, Korea and elsewhere :

http://gbax.com/pandorax.html 

Seems like there were clear differentiation in place for geographies to me.

Since this thread is by now derailed well and good, I'll comment on this too...

This "appearance" was also my recollection. In 2009 I already typically ordered from EUR area instead of UK (for example, if I could choose amazon.de over amazon.co.uk, I always did.. no rate conversions and I'm able to "operate" in German, though my skills have degraded since studying the language).

But yeah, back then I also got the impression the .de site only served Germany.

Never asked about it from anyone, though, because I would have ordered the Pandora from an "English" shop due to the nature of the product!

Anyway, this is pretty pointless. Back in those days:

Craig's reputation was superb,

he was the "main man", supplying the Pandora to ED and not vice versa,

it was clear his shop operated in English,

etc. etc.

No matter what we Craig queuers say now, back then most people would have chosen Craig anyway! He ran the show, odds were you'd get a Pandora a bit quicker from him. People not browsing the forums might even have assumed that the .de site operated in German and emails would have to be in German.

If the queue had been split in half between ED and Craig, ED would still probably have a queue too. So in a twisted way the "perception" that Craig was "quicker" was correct then and could easily have been correct now.

The difference was made when ED handled the preorders responsibly and would not have allowed more preorders to pile up in the first place. Craig gambled and lost. It is pretty much certain by now that Craig said "yes, you still fit into the first 3000" while taking in orders he knew would be way in the 3500 range :angry: .

So, before you argue that you were not given the choice, ask yourself: Would you really, really have preferred ED back in 2008 or 2009 with the knowledge you had then.

In all honesty, I wouldn't have, even though I constantly ordered from .de-sites at the time!

 

[_wb_]

It was not only Craig or ED, Fatih was also an option but his queue was much smaller than the others so it was rapidly fulfilled.

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to say that it was up to the customers to pick a shop of their choice and it's their fault for picking the 'wrong' one - the geographical territories were clearly indicated, and most of the world would end up in Craig's queue based on that. So it's not their fault that they ended up in Craig's queue, because even if they did suspect anything about Craig's reliability already at that time, you could hardly expect them to move geographically or disrespect the geographical division indicated by the OPT itself just to be able to place an order from a different shop.

That said, it is of course still Craig's responsibility towards his own customers.

I can understand why ED nevertheless feels a responsibility towards all original OPT customers: after all, the original OPT was a team, which means you do things together, all for one and one for all and all that, even if legally you have separate entities. But it has become increasingly clear that Craig is not a good team player (to be a team player you need communication, reliability, and trust), and the original OPT has essentially broken up because of that. Craig is even refusing to let ED help him and he even refuses to admit the extent of his problem. Still, ED is making a big effort to help Craig's customers by offering them a very significant discount, despite all this.

 

[b_o_b]

Exactly.  So since I'm in North America, according to the official pandora ordering instructions, I was supposed to order through the store I did.  Also, you can't tell that there are only 2 companies.  Either there is one with 4 geographic distribution points, or there are four businesses.  That's my point.  It is definitely NOT clear that there was only Craig or Ed.

I don't understand this discussion. There is no point. You have bought it from Craig that's it .. tough luck, live with it. And asking for a refund is surely no legal action. 

Beginning of this year I wanted to buy some bitcoins. I used a site that was the biggest in Europe, already in business for a while and handled a lot of exchanges so I though that it was pretty trustworthy.

I have sent 500 Euro's to a Polish bank account to buy the coins. A couple of days or so after I transferred the money I saw on their site all their bank accounts and bitcoins were frozen.

People started to get organized, a forum for victims was created. There were discussions how to retrieve their money or what legal actions could be taken. I still don't have my money, because the Polish government is preventing me. Right now, I can only blame the Polish government. 

Others already received their money, because their money was sent to a German account and the German goverment was more flexible. The bitcoins were already released sooner.

I am not going to ask the people who received their bitcoins/money to help me out, this is my problem. There are actions taken though and serious discussions how to move on.  

That is what I don't see in the discussion regarding the pre-orders. Nobody is taking any initiative to have a good discussion what has been done and can legally be done to retrieve money from Craig. 

I have proposed the UK ombudsman and also posted other links with possible actions that can be taken. 

 

[PokeParadox]

Sigh... yes some people are being overly vocal... but for the most part we all want the same thing - a most fair way to clear the queue and get everyone their Pandora.


1. I have received my Pandora and shouldn't give a shit.


2. I DO give a shit and want the situation to be resolved because it's unfair.


3. I DID have to wait a long time to receive my original preorder so it's unfair to say "people that haven't had to wait"


4. Arguing about if the stores were confused to be the same legal entity IS pointless since they simply aren't and you can't change that.


5. ED could say "screw you guys, I'm going home!" to all remaining in the queue and, while some are saying that's what he should do, most here are just trying to brainstorm what can be done next.


That'd how things stand - Stay calm and suggest possible ways that can help move forward. Try and approach this thread without the feeling that it's ED's fault - he's trying to help. Having a bitch and a moan about the ,now set in stone, past can be done in countless other threads...


And finally just in case someone says you don't understand you've not been in this situation...


Have you ever tried applying for a visa? You have to to front close to £1000 to APPLY for one and they can still throw the papers in the bin. What I'm getting at is I lost £1000 in my wife's visa - she's still all the way in Chile with my son because the government decided to introduce a mandatory English exam after our failed application. We're coming up to our 3rd wedding anniversary and I'm still no closer to figuring out what I can do to unite us... so no one try to tell me I don't know anything about unfair.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

At this stage, I think I would be tempted to set a cut off for this, like:

From now until the 1st March, 2014, ED is willing to take on orders from Craig's queue for the prices he quoted. His personal favoured outcome would be each and every remaining pre-order from Craig's queue to stump up the cash, get the device and move on with a happy community. That said, anyone that does not upgrade by 1st March, 2014, will not be able to switch their order to ED. After this date, if you still have an order with Craig, it is down to you and Craig to resolve this. Beyond this point, the best ED will be able to do is offer a Pandora at cost (no win for ED, but at least he doesn't lose anything).

It is obviously not fair, but life isn't fair:

 - ED is doing a lot more than he needs to, why is he throwing away money, it isn't fair, but he is big hearted

 - The customer has already paid, waited a long time, and are now being asked for more money, this isn't fair (but it is a lot fairer than not even being offered the above)

 - A lot of people have paid less money and received their Pandora already, that isn't fair (but less complaints here)

If an email does go out, I would probably add a paragraph that makes it crystal clear ED is doing this out of kindness not legal obligation. I'd also give exact numbers (exact as possible), of how many orders are left for each unit, how many units he has shipped since taking over production and (as he already has) state that no money will be taken until the device ships. Also worth noting that the average delivery time is X days since the start of 2013 (hopefully X days is short),

Come 2nd March next year, it is over! ED has been more than fair, but he has also put a line under all of this mess. At last it will be over. Maybe the deadline will encourage a lot of users to put up the extra notes and be done with it. Of course there will be some customers left at the end with no Pandora, but at that point there is nothing more ED can do.

 

[EvilDragon]

And just so people can actually see (without the styles), here's the page from Dec. 2008 from archive.org. http://web.archive.org/web/20081204060820/http://www.openpandora.org/

Go down to the sept/oct. news.  The website lists the areas and where you should order from.  So the site makes it seem as if there is only one company, or there are four.  Who's site is pandoratr.com?  Please, feel free to tell me how someone NOT already familiar with the pandora community and given this official posting on the official website, is supposed to know that there are only two companies and they are completely separate entities.

Well, it links to different websites which all had a different legal notice on their website.

The domain is different, the owner and company name on the legal notice was different... so how would someone expect it's from the same company?

When doing any kind of business and you want to know whom to talk to in case you have any issues in the future, it's probably a good idea checking that before ordering.

And it was all there on the websites.

I know this is something most people don't do (I also usually don't when I order something somewhere), but you can't claim no one said where you actually ordered.

 

[Godmil]

Maybe the deadline will encourage a lot of users to put up the extra notes and be done with it.

I don't like this idea, I think a lot of people who aren't currently able to pay extra, aren't doing it because of lack of a deadline, but rather they actually can't afford it. A deadline won't change that.

 

[b_o_b]

At this stage, I think I would be tempted to set a cut off for this, like:

Fully agree with that post. There should be a cut of date so that we can say, 'it is now done, lets continue'. 

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Maybe the deadline will encourage a lot of users to put up the extra notes and be done with it.

I don't like this idea, I think a lot of people who aren't currently able to pay extra, aren't doing it because of lack of a deadline, but rather they actually can't afford it. A deadline won't change that.

It isn't my favourite outcome, my favourite would of course be that would be that everything runs smooth, everyone gets their order for the price they paid on time. Obviously that ship has sailed.

So my suggestion is trying to come up with something which works for the majority. In terms of whether people can afford it or not, I'd challenge that you can't possibly have any idea what percentage of people are holding off due to cost - sure I 100% concede there are some number of people really don't have enough cash, but as to how many people that really is, well we really don't know. You are suggesting it is a reasonable number, I personally feel it is quite a lot less. For the cheaper option, 100 EUR doesn't seem like that much money; and what I am using for this is the fact the device costs a chunk of money anyway; it is like if you can afford to put money up to pre-order the Pandora in the first place, is there no way that years later you can't get together another 100 EUR? Maybe for some people the answer really is no, but I can't help but feel for a lot of people they could get another 100 EUR together, but they don't want to (maybe they feel the price the paid for the Pandora is what it is worth and not any more, maybe they don't see why they should pay more when others haven't, maybe they have got tired of constantly shelling out money for a device that still hasn't arrived, and so on).

I know for 100 EUR you end up with the old model device, but ED is being very charitable, he isn't saying he'll take all the money you have given to Craig, and take another 100 EUR on top and send you a Pandora. He is actually saying he will sale you a Pandora for 100 EUR, which is actually amazing. Still sucks to have to pay more money, but I just feel it would be nice to have an end date for all this, I don't want to forget users that really can't save 100 EUR by 1st March 2014, but I honestly fail to see how it can be that many people.

 

[tsh]

I suggest this thread is prunded so the idiots ranting about entitlement can take that somewhere else. Having read the last few pages, I am 100% against taking any action which will enable some people to get a free pandora from ED.

However, since I don't fully understand why ED is still trying to help, and expect he may contribute to more interesting projects in the future, I will upgrade my 2 outstanding pre-orders for EUR 300. 

 

[b_o_b]

Not sure if it is a good idea, but I thought of another alternative for folks that don't have the money or are willing to spend for a classic Pandora from ED (I understand not everyone has the financial situation to buy one). Instead of donating money, community members could donate their old handhelds (DS / PSP / GP2X etc).

I have a GP2X (or maybe even two) that I can donate. The person accepting the donation from the community members then should lose the right to buy a Pandora for a reduced price. No Pandora but at least something similar to play with. 

Of course that will not change the fact that Craig is still legally owing that person a refund / Pandora. 

 

[ekianjo]

Of course that will not change the fact that Craig is still legally owing that person a refund / Pandora. 

While I respect what ED is trying to do, I certainly dont like the idea of letting Craig off the hook. Whatever you are suggesting as well is just helping Craig in the end, and I strongly expect liars to pay for all the bullshit they created in the first place.