Trying to find a fair solution

[ElPoco]

I still fail to see why ED and ED's customers have to bear these costs just to save Craig's boat.

Why don't you drive a donation yourself if you are so concerned about this ? Or ring Craig again to remind him his customers are still waiting?

I fail to see why Craig's preorder customers would have to bear the Pandora development costs without getting anything in exchange. If ED is able to make profits from the Pandora he sells, that's because pre-orderers gave the money that was needed to make the Pandora a reality.

I'm not saying that ED should fund everything, and I'm definitely not saying that Craig shouldn't do anything.

As a pre-orderer I'm just fed up of people telling me that the 350 euros I've paid for the OpenPandora project are just lost and useless money and that I shouldn't get anything for them.

I'm especially fed up of getting told this by people who actually got a Pandora by paying the exact same amount I did, or by those who got a 1Ghz for 550€ and are expecting me to be happy to just have to pay 650€ to get one.

 

[sebt3]

Sorry to repeat myself but why isn't Craig expected to DO anything here?

Any of the old pre-order queue customer can still sue Craig. But that's the only way to see craigx doing anything about the preorderer. 5 years of waiting is rather clear on how he care about them.And at this point craig would just bankrout his openpandora company instead of getting in front of lawyer so well, dont expect anything from him (or yet an other preorder-driven projet that wont deliver without ED backing his ass...)

 

[ekianjo]

and I'm definitely not saying that Craig shouldn't do anything.

Then please do remind Craig of his obligations. So far I see only ED proposing help here and it's not fair.

And at this point craig would just bankrout his openpandora company instead of getting in front of lawyer

Then at least that would send a clear signal to Craig's customers. Instead of keeping them in the dark.

 

[ShleeDragon]

This bad photoshop is the closest we will ever get to Craig paying for his preorder queue.

 

[sebt3]

@ekianjo : Not a single action to deliver these preorders in the last 3 years is a definitive message to the remaining waiters if you ask me...

 

[ekianjo]

@ekianjo : Not a single action to deliver these preorders in the last 3 years is a definitive message to the remaining waiters if you ask me...

Yeah, but somehow his clients still think they are entitled to get something from him, so I'd like to see them try instead of asking ED to bear all the costs by himself. It's not because someone screws you that you are entitled to get your money back from someone else. Things don't really work like that in reality.

 

[xcen]

Are you guys going to stfu about "it wasn't clear whose shop it was" and telling ED what to do?

Last I checked ED was a fully grown man perfectly able to make decisions by himself. Let him do so.

This thread is about finding a FAIR SOLUTION

so stfu already with your self important bullshit (yeah shleedragon, that means you)

 

[MrConfusion]

and I'm definitely not saying that Craig shouldn't do anything.

Then please do remind Craig of his obligations. So far I see only ED proposing help here and it's not fair.

Well we're at this point of the discussion again.

Before you spread the hate...

We don't know what Craig's situation is.

Not even ED knows.

Assume he's financially in deep... brown stuff. At least from the perspective of a regular Joe.

It might well be he has a whole pile of bills he needs to pay before he can start paying Pandora related costs; people like banks, government, the guys who simply take if they cannot get. He needs to secure ICP2 at all cost, if that fails, he's down.

What can he do?

Yeah, come and say "sorry", but other than that?

Besides, if he comes here to say "sorry", ten messages later there's stuff there no-one in their right mind wants to read even if they didn't have other problems to worry about.

And yes, I know his last posts have been, to say the least, not thoroughly thought out. Well I've made posts I'd like to take back later too. I've already pointed out that problems like he probably has do change people and I still have the impression that some 5 years ago most of you though he was a jolly good fellow.

Also, how are you going to react if he were to surprise us, manages to get in the clear with ICP2s or whatever he's working on now and starts supplying Pandoras again?

Oh, I understand this is no longer about only Pandoras, but about his general reliability.

And I understand what you're getting at and why, but moaning about things one way or another and speculating about his situation doesn't really make any difference either, it just spreads the hate all over the place and hate is the last thing we need.

*sigh* Well, I won't post of this subject anymore. Maybe it's just better to let the hate spread than feed the flames...

 

[rohezal]

Assume he's financially in deep... brown stuff. At least from the perspective of a regular Joe.

The companies and his private money are seperated. He just spended his own money to fund the Pandora company by taking a mortage of his house (at least he said so).

*sigh* Well, I won't post of this subject anymore. Maybe it's just better to let the hate spread than feed the flames...

Agree. Maybe do a short summary in two sentences what everybody wants and then finish it.

I want EDs plan to deliver the preorder Pandoras to succeed. I made a poll with some additional options which could maybe improve the plan and collected data (not enough ) so ED can decide if he wants to use the additional options.

 

[dsjah]

I upgraded to a 1ghz unit in Craigs' queue over a year ago for an additional $369, so total I am into this for about $770. I have not received anything yet. How much additional cost would it be from you Ed to switch queues?

 

[EvilDragon]

What? The 1GHz queue should've been fully delivered quite a while ago.

 

[dsjah]

I got tired of waiting, so I had ask for a refund along time ago, and have not heard back. I will send an email to ask if they will cancel my refund to send me a unit. Do you think that is possible?

 

[FaeMinx]

Yeah... that's something else to get freaked out about... So now we may know how many people remain in Craigs queue, but how many people are still waiting for a refund? What's going to happen to them?

 

[ekianjo]

What's going to happen to them?

Same as people asking a refund for ICP2, i Guess?  

 

[pmprog]

This thread is about finding a FAIR SOLUTION

Actually, this was about finding out if everyone thought ED's solution was "fair" (as can be), but I agree with you that the rest of this nonsense should be pruned into it's own obsolete thread

 

[aatu]

Some people brought up the attitude of how Craig's pre-orderers are treated as some sort of "lesser people". And I have to admit, I've noticed this too. And it saddens me. I would like to remind that there are still people waiting who pre-ordered as early as 1st/2nd of October of 2008 (I'm on 3rd), meaning less than a week after the very first pre-order went live. And yes, the only difference is that we ordered via Craig. Another thing I would like to remind is that everybody should also try to look at the situation from the eyes of the pre-orderers. We have waited the longest, and now we're the ones who might end up paying the most.

I don't blame ED if he is forced to make such a decision, because he also has the short end of the stick, and is not accountable to us. But I'm getting sick 'n tired of listening to people who already got their Pandoras, and now that they are in the clear, they start belittling the rest of the queue they used to be a part of. But hey, how about we just do this: let's stake the options in a way that most of the pre-orderers will simply choose to drop out. Then you guys won't have to worry about us anymore, right? After all, we're just an excess baggage now. Hooray for community!

Yes, it's quite a melo-dramatic way of seeing the situation, but that's how it sure feels like.

As for a "fair" solution:
Fair to the pre-orderer? Fair to the pre-orderer with regards to ED?
Pre-orderers have already paid for their Pandora, so it would be only fair that they get a free Pandora.
ED, on the other hand, is not accountable for another company's customers, so it's only fair that he doesn't have to cover the cost for it.
Contradictions to accomplish fair? Yes.

If you guys want to get rid of the queue, then yes, you should vote for a fairly high upgrade fee with a fixed deadline. I'd reckon (though just a guess) even 250€ will make most pre-orderers to drop out. Mission accomplished.

With 50-100€ "upgrade" for a refurb CC unit, you will get some of the more desperate orderers to bite, and at the same time get the old stock moving. Win-Win.

(Don't get me wrong on the latter one, I truly think it is a good option to give, as it will finally relieve some people out of this hell.)

Ps. As an end-note I want to applaud the people who have already gotten their Pandoras, but still have compassion for the rest of us. There might not be that many of you. You guys are the glue that have made this community hold together. Even greater applaud for ED for trying to keep the torch lit.

Ps2. Additionally, I would suggest providing something like a 100€ special switch option for people who were original pre-orderers, chose to upgrade to 1GHz (and thus help the community), didn't get a unit, chose to ask for a refund, and were left in the limbo. The situation is bad for us regular pre-orderers, but it's even worse for people like "dsjah", who have already paid double. Though I don't know how many those kind of people are in the limbo, so not sure how long the donation monies could keep up. Therefore you would have to get additional information from Craig to see if it would be feasible.

(Actually, most of those people might have been a part of the "bankrun", even though they were warned that they shouldn't do it. Which makes me NOT want to reward them. Thus I have slightly contradicting feelings with regards to this matter...)

 

[sebt3]

Pre-orderers have already paid for their Pandora, so it would be only fair that they get a free Pandora.

Well they paid it way below production cost. That's the real bug. Some pandora paid that price and got one, others dont. That's what un fair. Nobody can force Craigx fix the issue for his customers (otherwise he will just bankrupt the company and call that a day...). Nobody can force those who got the pandora below production cost to pay more for what they already have (the fair guy already have donated to the upgrade fund I guess, if you have dont it yet, plz do).
ED solution is somewhat fair as it allow those preorderer to actually get a pandora. Sure you'll need to pay more, but that only cover the difference between what you paid and the real production price.

EDIT: on a side note, I ordered a product a few month ago from a company that was going bankrupt. Nothing told me they were going bankrupt, nothing holded me to pay them. I have'nt received my product yet they took my money. Now that they are officially gone I just have my eyes to cry on my lost money.

ED is trying to fix a problem for customer of an other company that wouldnt do a single things to help their customers and you think that's unfair ? Do you remember that the other option is no device at all and not money back ?

 

[aatu]

Regarding "way below production cost":

Original pre-orderers paid about 280€, I think. (Mine was a little bit over 300€, but it had the dev fund donation and a TV-Out cable.)

I think the production cost is less than that...? (Though I might be wrong on that, but somehow the figure 270€ has been lingering on my head?)

Also:

 Sure you'll need to pay more, but that only cover the difference between what you paid and the real production price. 

No, I think we're now supposed to upgrade for the production cost itself, because otherwise the production cost would be 270+300 = 570€. And that can't be true, as the shop itself sells them for 540€

With regards to "unfair":

That's why I differentiated between "fair for pre-orderer", and "fair for pre-orderer with regards to ED".

I can't see how you can see the situation as "fair" to the pre-orderer from their point of view. Do note (like I said earlier), it's not fair that ED pays for it, either. But it certainly isn't fair for the pre-orderer.

 

[pmprog]

I can't see how you can see the situation as "fair" to the pre-orderer from their point of view.

I think half the problem stems from the fact that a number of pre-orderers are still expecting their unit, at the price they paid for it.
The problem is is that that your money is gone, the company you bought it from is all but gone, your pre-ordered unit(s) don't exist. The only thing you have left is an IOU note from Craig that will (probably) never be fulfilled, and a polite offer from ED for a discount in his shop.

It can't be fair to the pre-orderer, ever, unless somebody is willing to give ED a whole bunch of money for nothing, and that's pretty unlikely.

 

[aatu]

Yes, and that's exactly what I was getting at in my first post, when I said there are contradictions to "fair".

But the truth is, most people still waiting probably have a solid reason for it. If they haven't yet upgraded, what would make them to upgrade now?

The sad thing is, we now have lots of alternative devices to choose from, some for a lot less than even the upgrade price. I know some people would now like to say that Pandora is unique and there's nothing like it in the market. Yes, but those people who need exactly the combination Pandora provides, most likely have already upgraded. The rest of us just saw something nice for an agreeable price. Probably not all features being mandatory, some of them just nice-to-have. Now that we're supposed to pay the same price again, we're more likely to get something more powerful or with better features, that even costs less. Or simply save that money for something more important.