True or False

[OldJim]

I thought about if I should write this Post for quit a wile.


Problem is I really don't want to step on anybody s feed or put someone down.


But I really believe that Open Source is all about being open and honest, thats why I like it so much.


And seeing the latest posts and replays (including my self) A lot of Members of this Community have don't believe anymore that the OP-Team is honest whit us.


Just one Deadline to much that did not worked out as promised. Yea there always was a explaining Story and these Stories sounded so convincing - that now even 2 Years after the First Dead line was broken people are still willing to but up whit delays. But this convincing Stories have a down side to. If you heard so and so many of them and then a new one comes up you don't know if you can trust it any more.


Even if its so convincing and sounds like nothing can go wrong... You heard that so many times that its just hard to believe even if you want to.


And I think thats ashame - Because this Project is so unique and cool. I really hate to see how more and more people lose there thrust in it. Also I hate to see how people that are not in the Open Source Community start to point there Fingers at us saying: "Look at that bunch of liars and the even bigger bunch that believes them"


I'm proud about being a Active Open Source Member and hate it if something comes up that trows a bad light on it.


So having this said I hope that nobody feels offended, in the contrary the help and put in all they can to prove that Open Source is all about being open and Honest to each other and treating everybody equal.


So lets look at the last little Speed up the the Production Story:


Most of you have read this Topic:








So lets take a close look at it and see if its True or False:


Before this Speed Boost, the OP-Team did tell es these facts (Since the Numbers are not always so clear I always take the Worst case Numbers):


Over 1000 Pandora's are Shipped (so there are 3000 left to go)


They can make and Ship 60 Pandora's a day


So the Last Pandora (whit out the Speed Boost of the Premium Sold Pandora's) would have been shipped in 50 Days


Assuming that they work 5Days a Week that would mean that the last Pandora is shipped in 10 Weeks


So having these Facts and the Treat mentioned above it should be easy to find out in a very short time if the OP-Team is worthy of the Open Source Scene or not.


They are worthy of these Scene if the promises that they made in the Treat above turn out to be true.


They are nothing then a bunch of Liars if the last Pandora is Shipped any Later then 10 Weeks from now. (It should be much shorter then 10 Weeks because the got that extra Speed Boost selling these Premium Pandora's - But he lets give them some slack)


So that was Story Number 1 that will prove if the OP-Team is True or False whit in the next 10Weeks


Now comes Story Number 2:


The Que line:


In April Last Year I asked What Que Position I was in.


(To set things Clear because not every body is talking about the Que Position the same way. I asked what produced Pandora Number would me the one that would be shiped to me. I did not care if I'm in EvilDragons or Craigs Que list. I wanted to know what productions Number would be mine)


The Answer I gut was that my Que position was 1550 - 1650 so lets take the worst care Number again that would be 1700


So If my Position is 1700 and all the Facts we did get from the OP-Team are true my personal Pandora Countdown should look like this:


1000 are already Shipped


so there are 700 to go


70 a Day leafs us whit 10 Work Days


if they Work 5 Days a Week that adds up to 2 Weeks


So I should receive my long awaited "Your Pandora is on its way" at the latest 2 Weeks from now.


Then lets add 2 More Weeks if everything goes wrong on its Shipping Trip to me I should hold my Pandora in the Hand before the Month of February is over.


So Now its all up to the OP-Team


Are you True or False


you Have 2 Stories to prove it!


I sure hope you prove that your True.

 

[vadsamoht]

Over 1000 Pandora's are Shipped (so there are 3000 left to go)

OK, there are several assumptions that you made that are wrong here, but I'm only going to reply to this one. The this is that 'over 1000 shipped' can be a bit misleading. AFAIK the number includes RMAs, units sent to ED, and so forth. I believe we are currently at ~800 in Craig's queue.


One other thing, with OP's 'Stories', they may have excuses for the delays, but that does not mean that they are not telling the truth - these are likely the real reasons for the delays.


I was going to type a longer rebuttal, but it's well over 40 degrees here atm, and I can't be bothered.

 

[bzar]

1. Everything does not always go according to the plan. In my opinion failing to take unforeseeable events into account is not lying. See signature.
   
2. The queue position estimates have been found inaccurate many times.
   
3. Your post sounds somewhat threatening. Who are you to judge who's "worthy"?
   

I'm not trying to attack you here. I suggest you chill out a bit and consider this project like any open source project: it's done when it's done and putting your foot down won't make it go any faster. Given the latest news I'm hopeful I'll get my unit inside the time frame you've given (my estimated queue position is in the same ballpark, though that doesn't count for much ), but I'm not expecting to. I trust the team is working as hard and well as they (in?)humanly can and I don't expect them to do anything more. It always helps to remember that they are just a few people from the forums (and a few others), just like you and me.


In any case, I hope you get your unit soon

 

[vadsamoht]

it's done when it's done and putting your foot down won't make it go any faster.

OP has a broken accelerator?

 

[Tickles]

As far as I'm aware, all OPT have ever given us are estimates based on the information available at the time. They may have been lied to or misled by others which they then unknowingly passed on, but I don't believe they ever intentionally lied. The estimates given to us may have been optimistic at times, but without a huge amount of optimism this project would never have got this far, so I think we can forgive them for that.


Look at it this way: imagine you've got to drive to a country on the other side of the world, somewhere far away from anywhere you've been before, and give an estimated time of arrival. You can work out what roads you're going to take, how you're going to cross oceans and borders etc. but chances are somewhere along the line you're going to have unexpected delays and setbacks that will make your estimate wildly inaccurate. Maybe your van will explode or a volcano will erupt, or you'll fall off a roof after drinking too much vodka.


Point is OPT were not experienced at this, it was their first time making this journey. If they had known at the start how long this trip was going to take they may not have bothered. But we should be very grateful they did, because the Pandora is absolutely fantastic and well worth the wait

 

[second exodous]

Over 1000 Pandora's are Shipped (so there are 3000 left to go)

OK, there are several assumptions that you made that are wrong here, but I'm only going to reply to this one. The this is that 'over 1000 shipped' can be a bit misleading. AFAIK the number includes RMAs, units sent to ED, and so forth. I believe we are currently at ~800 in Craig's queue.


One other thing, with OP's 'Stories', they may have excuses for the delays, but that does not mean that they are not telling the truth - these are likely the real reasons for the delays.


I was going to type a longer rebuttal, but it's well over 40 degrees here atm, and I can't be bothered.

I think this week 1000 will be shipped in Craig's queue, I asked Craig on another thread if mine will ship, 850-950, and he said I should get my e-mail this weekend(last two days) or Monday(today). I haven't gotten it yet so I don't know. Someone else on that thread asked when his would ship, his was like 1000-1100 or something like that, and Craig said that would ship also.

So if I'm 850-950 I should get getting mine soon?

You should get an email over the weekend or on monday.

I have my fingers crossed, I have not slept a wink since I got that reply, I keep waking up and looking at my pidgin client.

 

[3jane]

If I could wish for one thing, it would be meaningful thread titles.


And a pony. OK, if I could wish for TWO things I wish for meaningful thread titles, and a pony. And a pandora! Damn.


My wishes include meaningful thread titles, a pony and a pandora.

 

[Anihil8ion2199]

Unfortunately OldJim, in my opinion you couldn't be more wrong. Not just you, but the other naysayers as well. I believe that OPT has been very honest with us, going so far as to give us pictures, tracking numbers, and explanations (good or bad) of their every step! If you don't follow the boards regularly, or catch up with what has been going on, I can see how you would feel that way because you miss lots of key information. Its like reading the first page of a book, then one in the middle, then the last 2, and form opinions on the conclusion. Now let me try to refute some of your misinformations.


1. While looking at your que number you are disregarding the fact that ED's shop takes a quarter of the Pandoras produced. So even using your "worst case scenario" you don't deduct the quarter, or consider returns, which halted production the first time with the failing nubs. Your math does not include x or y.


2. Questioning to accuse people as "liars" is way off base since they have already produced units, and are continuing to produce units. Regardless of "que position", although nobody likes delays (me included) any adult should understand that life events are not linear. Things go wrong. And to OPT's credit they have provided us with explanations (volcanoes, the news backed that story up) and pictures (of units and tracking confirmations) the entire time! If I were a member of OPT and just for fun, your unit did arrive in 10 weeks (according to your math), I would expect an apology.


3. You really shouldn't say that "worst case" 10 weeks, or 2 weeks, because there are people who's shipments have been stuck in Customs for 3-4 weeks!


I don't mean to be rude or condescending. My que position was at the end of batch one, until I upgraded. I understand this option is not for everybody, but I wanted to donate extra money to OPT since before the premium Pandora became an option. Read back on my posts where I'm asking for overpriced t-shirts or hoodies! When the option to get my unit faster arose, I took it, understanding that I'll get mine a month earlier, but maybe some one behind me will get theirs in a month, and maybe these guys on OPT who have been doing so much work, and have put so much into this, can maybe turn a bit of a profit.


In conclusion: some things are just circumstance, you cant get upset and stop just short of accusing somebody of being a liar that easily. Heck I've been waiting for Duke Nukem since '97! Forever...

 

[OldJim]

I believe we are currently at ~800 in Craig's queue.

Sorry if I did not make it clear when I was Writting:

(To set things Clear because not every body is talking about the Que Position the same way. I asked what produced Pandora Number would me the one that would be shiped to me. I did not care if I'm in EvilDragons or Craigs Que list. I wanted to know what productions Number would be mine)

If there is a way to say it more Clear that Im Talking about the overall Que and not the Shop Ques, please let me know.


Im from Switzerland...

Who are you to judge who's "worthy"?

Its not me that says this but just the Codex of open source in General

2.The queue position estimates have been found inaccurate many times.

Well if what they write to you in a E-Mail is not accurate - Whats accurate then?


And Just to set things right. IM NOT CALLING THE OP-TEAM LIARS!


Im giving the the chance to prove that they can be trusted, to all the ones out there that dont believe that anymore.


All Im asking for is that you should stop making promisses that you cant hold in.


And if you make a promise please allways callculate that Murphy is just around the Corner


I hov no problem if you tell me he it will take us 2 Years More... I allready waitet 2 Years... But I have a Problem if you Keep telling That the Unit is just 2 Months away and then 2 Years later it still sounds the same.


Also I have a problem whit that people whit more money get things Faster... Thats just not Open Sourse Like.


Open Sourese is all about everybody beeing Equal not matter how much money the have.

 

[tsh]

And Just to set things right. IM NOT CALLING THE OP-TEAM LIARS!


Im giving the the chance to prove that they can be trusted, to all the ones out there that dont believe that anymore.

Your thread title is not the most useful. It suggests there are two possibilities only.


I don't feel you have a very useful thread here. You are trying to piece together a detailed timeline when the information does not exist. You also need to understand that this is not a little open source project - there is a lot of cash tied up in the project (as there is with many open source initiatives).


Queue positions are a WASTE of TIME. Trying to project production past the end of the next week is also a waste of time. When you work on a project with people on 3 different continents (and cultures) you will finally understand this.

 

[EvilDragon]

So... any OpenSource project that has some release date set which is missed because some of the folks involved didn't think it would take that long is no longer an OpenSource project?


Well, it's even weirder... basically, to be exact, the Pandora is a device especially created for running OpenSource (though one could port Windows Mobile as well to it).


So it's the device where you RUN your OpenSource software on (and the OS is open as well), basically the same as a PC.


So if a PC vendor delays his latest model because of some issues, the OpenSource community is to blame?


I think we are WAY more open regarding what happened and what not than most other hardware vendors.


Unfortunately, there have been events (like nubs that have not been properly tested by the manufacturer, which caused a 6 months stall in production) we couldn't really expect, and before that, we knew next-to-nothing when it comes to production.


If I ask you, how long will it take to get into mass production of a board similar to the Pandoras (8-layer, pretty complicated to build, etc.), what would you expect?


The speed chinese clones of products appear nowadays, we expected that a non-chinese company should be able to do things WAY faster - well, they don't. It takes MUCH longer - took WAY longer we ever expected.


One of the current issues for sure was also the financial crisis. Parts usually had a leadtime of 4 - 8 weeks MAX - now a lot of parts take up to 6 months to get...


I can understand the frustration, but as far as I know, we've always been as open as possible about what happened.


We told whatever we knew (or had been told), but there were things we ourselves didn't know - and therefore, we couldn't post them.

 

[bzar]

Its not me that says this but just the Codex of open source in General

Where can I read this "codex of open source" you are referring to? Or is it a compilation of your personal experiences on how the OSS community works? Most OSS projects at one point or another do not meet deadlines set by themselves or others. It would be strange if there was a protocol that stuff should be ready when you estimate it'll be ready.

And Just to set things right. IM NOT CALLING THE OP-TEAM LIARS!

They are nothing then a bunch of Liars if the last Pandora is Shipped any Later then 10 Weeks from now.

So no, you are not calling them liars yet. You just set these boundaries when they become liars. In my opinion lying implies intent, which would mean that at a certain point in time if you don't have your pandora for any reason, you'll just assume they've been intentionally misinforming you all the time.


I apologize for the tone above, I'll stop posting to this thread if you so desire. I just can't understand your rationale for setting these kinds of limits and it makes me frustrated. We're all in the same boat here and I hope you'll stay with us until the (hopefully) happy end.

 

[EvilDragon]

All Im asking for is that you should stop making promisses that you cant hold in.

We stopped making promises a long time ago.


From then on, we only told what happened, what the plan is and how long (according to the companies involved) it will take.

Also I have a problem whit that people whit more money get things Faster... Thats just not Open Sourse Like.


Open Sourese is all about everybody beeing Equal not matter how much money the have.

While that's true, unfortunately, if we tell the workers or companies "It's OpenSource! You shouldn't take any money from us, we should all work together!" I doubt much will happen.


As said, the hardware never WAS OpenSource - it's only DESIGNED to be used for OpenSource (and we especially support OpenSource as well).


The companies involved also have to earn their food. Though if you find a company that is able to produce the boards for free because they want to support OpenSource, we're happy to use them

They are nothing then a bunch of Liars if the last Pandora is Shipped any Later then 10 Weeks from now.

So... let me get things straight...


You know from the news there was a stallment because the nubs were broken.


You know from the news that CC is producing, but we can't predict exactly how many they can produce per week (so far, it has been about 1000 boards in January, however, production of Pandora boards has various stages. When they started a month ago, each board started which step 1. Those steps can be done at the same time, so when the boards from step 1 reach step 2, step 1 already happens for the next bunch of boards. When the apparatus has been started, it should speed up).


A fact is that A LOT of units have shipped in January, and there is no stallment yet.


Though if CC can't keep up for some reason and "only" 90% of the Pandoras are delivered within 10 weeks, you will call us liars although we didn't do any promises but estimations.


Oooookay...

 

[Tickles]

If I could wish for one thing, it would be meaningful thread titles.


And a pony. OK, if I could wish for TWO things I wish for meaningful thread titles, and a pony. And a pandora! Damn.


My wishes include meaningful thread titles, a pony and a pandora.

Nobody expects the Australian wishlist!

 

[chris_r]

Firstly, no-one ever said the project was open source, it just happens to be using open source software. Secondly, the OP team is very open and honest about what's going on (apart from things we don't really need to know) and so I don't know why you get to decide who's "worthy".


You should've known exactly what the project was about and what you'd be getting yourself into before you ordered. So there's really no reason to bitch and make rather strange claims like if they don't stick to a time scale that you've just estimated for your order alone out of the thousands, then they don't get to say they're open source. To be honest, I don't even know what you mean by that and it just comes across as needlessly attacking the OP team.

 

[mahousaru]

Open source project...


You should check out the shenanigans happening at ffmpeg right now!!!


Then you have VLC's issues with AppStore....


Anything to do with Oracle and the list goes on!

 

[moxie]

So, let's see: You're not calling OPT liars, but you will call them liars in ten weeks time? This because you yourself calculated when every pandora should be ready, and even though nobody has promised anything, this (what you calculated) is what OPT has promised and thus it is a lie? Not that you mind waiting - You can wait two more years, but not ten weeks? And these ten weeks is relevant because Pandora is an Open source project, except that it isn't, and in open source projects everybody is always perfectly informed, except they aren't, and that's why open source projects never gets delayed past deadline? Except they do. Or was it four weeks, with a treat? Or threat? Any which way, I'm at a loss to figure out neither threat nor treat.


But OPT can redeem themselves by telling you your true order number in the big global pandora queue - Except that that queue does not exist. But you ought to be told, because you are from switzerland?!? Or they should invent a new queue? Only, they should stop promise things that they can't keep, and therefore they ought to promise you that your pandora will arrive in four weeks? Or ten? or two. Or something.


Now, there are legitimate critical points to be raised towards OPT during the last two years - Many of them probably fall on the subject of communication. Sometimes they have said things they shouldn't have, sometimes they haven't said something they should have. Communicating clearly and unambiguously with a large, diverse audience is quite difficult, more difficult than one would expect.


As this original post...thing quite well shows.


"The Codex of Open Source"? "OS is about everybody being equal in everything"? Who makes these things up? :blink:

 

[relliker]

"The Codex of Open Source"? "OS is about everybody being equal in everything"? Who makes these things up? :blink:

Duh...the Swiss maybe?

 

[mahousaru]

"The Codex of Open Source"? "OS is about everybody being equal in everything"? Who makes these things up? :blink:

Duh...the Swiss maybe?

Do they have to mediate on any discussions between Linux and BSD?

 

[relliker]

Do they have to mediate on any discussions between Linux and BSD?

I hope not!