There we go! (2012-02-28)

[Hesiod]

^ Since I got the same grand total and made a different deposit, I would say that's its confirmed that you have to deduct your deposit

Wouldn't one expect some shipping expenses to figure in somewhere?

Shipping costs will factored into the final payment email which I (and apparently many others) haven't received yet.

 

[EvilDragon]

I don't understand how Craig and you can differ so wildly in your estimations. Don't you guys talk outside of the forum? Do you disagree so badly about this that Craig finds it necessary to post something amazingly different from what you state to make sure he doesn't get blamed for it later? Or is Craig intending to use most of his share of original pre ordered Pandora's to sell for full price instead of sending them on unless they upgrade?

I asked Craig back then how many preorders he had still left and he mentioned it was only about 800.


That's how my full plan is based on, the business plan all potential investors got and which went pretty much as it should until now


Craig never mentioned something about 9000 units need to be sold, he mentioned that it won't happen before the end of the year and someone at this thread made that "9000 units"-calculation.


Based on his bad experiences with CC, I can imagine he's rather careful


That's totally understandable )


So Craig only mentioned I got the calculations, he never said it has to be 9000 units.


Don't mix up assumptions by the community with something Craig says

One thing is for sure, your noses are not in the same direction. ED's remark about how the potential money Craig could sue out of CC would be used is another example of that.

Why?


Officially, OpenPandora Ltd. (Craigs company) made the contract with CC.


CC has absolutely no resposibility towards my company (OpenPandora GmbH).


I can't sue them, I never did business with them - only Craig can do that.


Legally, I could sue Craig for not delivering all the Pandoras my company should've gotten from his company... though that wouldn't really make sense, would it?


Legally though it would be like that


So let's hope Craig will get some money from them soon

 

[craigix]

Actually the calculation is as follows:


In order for me to be able to afford to ship the outstanding units and outstanding replacements I need to sell 1 new unit for every 3 preorders shipped (minimum). Ed isn't allowing me to actually buy new units at cost price, so the only way I can do this is to sell part of my allocated preorder units.


Seeing as the GC Pandoras cost almost $400 to make (cost price - this is a gigantic price increase over the CC units) it's a pretty big uphill struggle to make this work.


I'm sure though, as usual, we will make it work.


PS shipping out ~1000 Pandora consoles over 6 months isn't a big deal in comparison to the iCP shipping.


CC - I've been tempted to start a thread documenting us going after CC, but I'm in two minds about it. I should have some news this week though.

 

[Timstertoo]

So Craig only mentioned I got the calculations, he never said it has to be 9000 units.


Don't mix up assumptions by the community with something Craig says

Actually the assumption is yours. I never mentioned the 9k units. I'm referring to the huge difference between your estimation of when the original pre orders would be delivered in the current situation and Craig's end of the year.


I think this just makes it all the more sensible to get all the orders together in one spot so one of the two companies can make sure everything is deliverd as honest and smoothly as possible under the circumstances.


Concerning the CC sue money. Basically we're being blackmailed into upgrading because CC didn't deliver. So there is a scenario possible where Craig would get X amount back from CC, decides to pocket it himself and then the original pre orderers still get shoved to the end of the line until Y amount of units are sold unless they upgrade?


What about the investors? I'd say that the money from CC would mean their return goes up too? Although with the scenario you're describing that wouldn't be the case as they invested in the GMBH? So the upsides get put in the LTD away from the investors but they have to take the downsides on the chin in the GMBH?


I really really wished Craig wouldn't have posted this. But if he's correct in his estimation with optimal production I can totally understand why he would. I'd have to look it up but somehow I've gotten it in my head that you said somewhere that April/May you expected to have the pre orders including batch 2 sent if production would be as prognosed. The two of you each own your own business and you're free to run it as you see fit but I can't help but think that PR wise it would be better to at least project the illusion of a united front to the outside world and a firm understanding and agreement of numbers. Being it orders left, costprice or estimation of time left to deliver whatever.


On the other hand it's really been out of my hands since I paid for it so I guess I'll stop taking my care pills again for a bit and I'll see it when (and apparantely if) I see it.

 

[Timstertoo]

Actually the calculation is as follows:


In order for me to be able to afford to ship the outstanding units and outstanding replacements I need to sell 1 new unit for every 3 preorders shipped (minimum). Ed isn't allowing me to actually buy new units at cost price, so the only way I can do this is to sell part of my allocated preorder units.


Seeing as the GC Pandoras cost almost $400 to make (cost price - this is a gigantic price increase over the CC units) it's a pretty big uphill struggle to make this work.


I'm sure though, as usual, we will make it work.


PS shipping out ~1000 Pandora consoles over 6 months isn't a big deal in comparison to the iCP shipping.


CC - I've been tempted to start a thread documenting us going after CC, but I'm in two minds about it. I should have some news this week though.

Got Ninja'd here. So as I said in my earlier post. Craig will hold back units ED sends for pre orderers to cover cost. :blink:


The plot thickens. :rolleyes:

 

[craigix]

If we manage to ship them all early, then that will be great, but you may have noticed that recently I'm trying to be very conservative in my estimates.


We will ship them all though, it will work.

Actually the calculation is as follows:


In order for me to be able to afford to ship the outstanding units and outstanding replacements I need to sell 1 new unit for every 3 preorders shipped (minimum). Ed isn't allowing me to actually buy new units at cost price, so the only way I can do this is to sell part of my allocated preorder units.


Seeing as the GC Pandoras cost almost $400 to make (cost price - this is a gigantic price increase over the CC units) it's a pretty big uphill struggle to make this work.


I'm sure though, as usual, we will make it work.


PS shipping out ~1000 Pandora consoles over 6 months isn't a big deal in comparison to the iCP shipping.


CC - I've been tempted to start a thread documenting us going after CC, but I'm in two minds about it. I should have some news this week though.

Got Ninja'd here. So as I said in my earlier post. Craig will hold back units ED sends for pre orderers to cover cost. :blink:


The plot thickens. :rolleyes:

There is no other way to do it, shipping ~800units will cost around $60,000.

 

[notaz]

There is no other way to do it, shipping ~800units will cost around $60,000.

~$75/unit?


I imagine lots of these go to US, what about cooperating with someone like Link to send in batches over the pond to reduce costs, like ED's planning to do?

 

[LineOf7s]

For the sake of 'classic' pre-orderers everywhere, could you at least use some lube before choosing to inform us of more news like that? I'm getting sore.


I'm sure we all have your 'heartfelt appreciation' though. And our forum ico- oh, wait.

 

[trinz]

Guess it's worse than I thought, even with the move to GC.


Well, let's see if the price to change to premium is worth it. Any ideas whether it's lower (since we had to wait for a lot, lot longer), or will it be the same (paying the difference)?

 

[JackTheKnife]

so if i understand, the more new preorders will be, the more time we will have to wait...?


if preorders will be made during the next 5 years, so we will have to wait 5 more years? this scheme has a problem, hasn't it?

thats really sucks... I'm going to wait X months more because I was one of the first supporters?

 

[JackTheKnife]

Last I heard from Ed, orders will be shipped 3 old preorders for every 4 new preorders/orders

That's also what I remember and based my estimate of 10 weeks off of. Craig's 9 month estimate would require 15 new Pandoras for every 2 old pre-order, meaning you'd need to sell 9000 new orders. That's 1000 a month, with GC producing a minimum of 1133 every month. If they can only handle 1000 production, this is unsustainable and doomed to failure.

It's just to blackmail the original pre orderers into upgrading.

Or to drop and request refund...

 

[EvilDragon]

Hmm... does this actually have to be rediscussed within almost every newspost thread?


We discussed through all that a couple of times already...

 

[Timstertoo]

Hmm... does this actually have to be rediscussed within almost every newspost thread?


We discussed through all that a couple of times already...

What are you referring to? Craig selling the units meant for pre orderers to others is certainly a new concept to me and has not popped up in any newspost thread up till tonight as far as I know.


Basically he says that if it's ok for you to put the classic pre orders behind new orders to first cover your costs it's ok for him to do the same.


This way classic pre orders who've ordered through his shop can wait for a completely undetermined amount of time as it's not dependable on how fast you can produce them and sell new ones. It's dependable on him having them stockpiled but not having the money to ship them. Or you having them stockpiled but him not having the money to buy them from you to ship to the classic pre orders.


My guess, based on Craig's post, is that the two of you don't see eye to eye about at which price Craig should buy the new units from you and this is Craig's way to solve it, or put pressure on you or whomever is between him and units at cost price.

 

[JackTheKnife]

It looks like everything is slippering towards Ponzi scheme :\


Why OP Gmbh is not taking over what left from OP Ltd? Current state reminds me situations from early 90's in Poland...

 

[roberthoward45]

glad to here production is running good still have my pandora from the first production run and have not had any major problems so these new ones should be great too.

 

[WizardStan]

What are you referring to? Craig selling the units meant for pre orderers to others is certainly a new concept to me and has not popped up in any newspost thread up till tonight as far as I know.

Premium sales, specifically Craig's plan for those sales, has been discussed a lot for over a year now.

 

[EvilDragon]

Hmm... does this actually have to be rediscussed within almost every newspost thread?


We discussed through all that a couple of times already...

What are you referring to? Craig selling the units meant for pre orderers to others is certainly a new concept to me and has not popped up in any newspost thread up till tonight as far as I know.

Hmm, that would be new. I hope he meant upgrades, not totally new sales.


Though thinking about it - even if it would be new sales... how high could his monthly costs be?


It shouldn't be more than 4000 EUR for a small office and one employee (that's what I have, and I'm below 2000 EUR).


He should get 100 - 160 free Pandoras per month, so that would be way more than he'd need for expenses...

Basically he says that if it's ok for you to put the classic pre orders behind new orders to first cover your costs it's ok for him to do the same.

I'm covering all my monthly costs with Caanoo, Everdrive, etc. sales.


The only costs I'm covering with new orders are the ones to actually produce the units for classic preorders, both for mine and for Craigs'.

 

[Timstertoo]

What are you referring to? Craig selling the units meant for pre orderers to others is certainly a new concept to me and has not popped up in any newspost thread up till tonight as far as I know.

Premium sales, specifically Craig's plan for those sales, has been discussed a lot for over a year now.

I thought all new sales of the Pandora would be done through the GMBH?


So Craig selling Pandora's through his shop again and pushing back classic pre orders in the LTD that have already been pushed back in the GMBH is a new concept to me and first time it's getting discussed as far as I'm aware.


Am I the only one seeing this? I'd love to be wrong though! Please explain to me as if I'm a child that Craig isn't implying that he'll also push them back as ED does to cover costs.


EDIT. Ninja'd by ED ^^

 

[EvilDragon]

Am I the only one seeing this? I'd love to be wrong though! Please explain to me as if I'm a child that Craig isn't implying that he'll also push them back as ED does to cover costs.

Well, he probably has costs (accountance, office rent, etc.).


Though thinking about it - even if it would be new sales... how high could his monthly costs be?


It shouldn't be more than 4000 EUR for a small office and one employee (that's what I have, and I'm below 2000 EUR).


So there would still be plenty of units left.

 

[Timstertoo]

I'm covering all my monthly costs with Caanoo, Everdrive, etc. sales.


The only costs I'm covering with new orders are the ones to actually produce the units for classic preorders, both for mine and for Craigs'.

This is how I understood it so up till here we're on the same page.


But that would mean that you have already given the LTD units the delay the GMBH units also get.


Then they get sent to the UK in that big box and Craig only has to send them on as discussed earlier. Craig doesn't do that though as he can't afford the shipping.(he didn't mention office space or staff cost as a reason not to ship) So instead of selling them, he's going to put them in his shop and sell them to earn the money to ship what's left. So he's eating into his allocated amount of pre ordered already delayed by the GMBH Pandoras and he's giving them an extra LTD delay.


So is the idea of delivering all the new orders through GMBH out of the window and will the LTD start putting up again too?


The option that he's referring to upgraded units is interesting too. What happens if no one upgrades? Will they gather dust in England? He should document the proces of when people start breaking and pay the upgrade although they didn't want to. Interesting social experiment. What I've gathered from game theory the chance is pretty high plenty will do so, so in that aspect I'm not worried about eventually getting my unit. But it will be much much later then someone who ordered around the same time as me but from ED.


I'm not even mad. I'm just amazed!


Edit: spelling