The Real Business Case For Openpandora

[EvilDragon]

OK, look at this. How much is this complex for you? And this is done by "inferior" technology:

It is not extruder - It is "3d printer" (RepRap, you can do it yourself btw)!

Interesting fact: the Pandora's prototype cases were made using Fused Deposition Modeling, a process that, I understand, is one form of 3D printing. These prototypes were made quickly and proved that the case design would hold the internals. But they looked like garbage (and yes, FDM production does not scale up to large quantities nearly as well as injection moulding does).

So all the time spent fiddling with the mould was an attempt to make the injected plastic keep the same shape as these initial prototypes. Cooling liquid plastic shrinks in funny ways, so it took time to accomplish.

... and they broke by just putting in the hinge

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Indeed, as i have a 3d printer at work, i can agree it's not for production use.
It's good for prototypes, and great for pre-prototypes.

 

[darkborn]

Yes, I hate to say, but that is very, very inferior to the Pandora. 3D printing isn't an option either.

IT IS POINTLESS. I'll try for last time:
I never said production should be done by 3D printing; It is usefull to made (and test) precise prototype, so that mould factory don't screw around.
I never said that it should be done 2 or more moulds... but even that could be better then situation that we have now.

This process uses injection moulding, whereby the mould is actually cut from a block of metal.

That was never in question. As I said, I got similar projects at high school. Imho all technical high school learn those production technology.

So what you are saying they should have done is, 6 months ago, after the first milestone was passed, they should have told the company that they had already given $100'000 to that they were no longer interested, and gone on to try a second company?

Basicly, yes. But note 6: 10 months ago! And not as a rednecks: "LA-LA-LA WE ARE NO LONGER INTERESTED" This is done by precise contract: when somebody break the contract, then has to pay fee, penal, interest... (call it what ever you want) OR, forward job to other company. I can't believe that OT paid $100000 in advance and this "thingy" is not regulated by contract.

I still don't understand what exactly you're saying, and I think it's because you don't actually understand what is required.

LOL I can see you don't understand, but please forgive me that I very well understand what is required here.

They found a company that can create injection moulds.

1st mistake. There are hundreds of companies that can make such moulds, just in China. There had to be alternative, just in case... 1st business rule: 1 supplier - you're helpless.

These are not standard. Every one is different. They need to be custom cut from blocks of metal.

That was never a question, again.

In order to do this, they had to agree to a minimum run of 10'000 pieces, and pay all the money up front.

IT IS NOT TRUE. To pay in advance is imho stupid without good contract. They didn't had to pay in advance for such a (relatively) small amount. MOULD(S) PRODUCTION IS TRICKY, SLOW AND EXPENSIVE. Production of 10000 parts is not. No philosophy here.

I am taking them at their word that there was no other way than to pay everything up front. I'm sure if there was, they would have taken it. So this company gave a 45 day estimate. After 45 days have passed, and they're still not quite finished, but they promise they're almost there, what would you have done?

Without good contract, NOTHING.
45 days vs 400+? Paid in advance? well... You can pay $10000 to "Blackwater Worldwide" or local Triad to make sure it will be done in next 45 days. :angry:
But this is plan C, ONLY when you forgot to make plan B. (and it is already too late now)

edit: just to make one thing absolutely clear, making the cases is not the bottle neck. Getting the plastic pieces is fast, very fast. Take the mould, inject hot plastic into it, pop the mould apart, go to the next.
The slow part is making the mould, taking the block of metal and removing everything that isn't a Pandora (or I guess removing everything that is a Pandora, since you need a negative).

It is really pointless... NOBODY said that cases are bottleneck: however, it looks like it will be "xx more days" now again, because of... what? Moulds are not a problem anymore (I hope). This company has serious problems, this is a fact.
Moulds are (usually) made by etching, and this is quite fast process. However, fine adjustments are needed afterward, and this is usually done manually, and this part could be done for months. BUT ONLY FEW MONTHS, NO MORE! Depending of purpose, final mould could be e.g. galvanized or treated with simmilar process to extend durability, with some alloy of chrome, copper or so. Anyway, just few months.

Once they've got the mould, it is (supposed to be) simple to produce all the cases that have been ordered. In theory they should be able to do about 1000 per day. Having two moulds will not speed things up in anyway. All that will happen is they'll have paid twice for something they only need one of.

IT IS IRRELEVANT COULD THEY PRODUCE 1, 100, OR 10000000 PARTS/DAY. Right now, 10 moulds will not speed things up because of a single, faulty producer. Nobody said we need two moulds. BUT, 2nd company with 2nd mould will produce 10k Pandoras long time ago. And there are other factors instead speed of producing. BOTTLENECK IS TO DEPEND OF ONE, NOT RELIABLE, SUPPLIER.

 

[fusion_power]

I'd love to see that lego brick.
I know Lego technics, but I haven't seen a single brick that is more complex than the Pandora case.

They made even more complex stuff for these "Bionicles":
http://www.bzpower.com/story.php?ID=3053
http://www.maskofdestiny.com/story/reviews/7318_Rahkshi_First_Look_127968.asp
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=333315
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=333318
Holes are often top-down AND left-right, I wonder how the Moulds for these structures are looking. ^^" I guess it needs alot of movable "inlays" so you can eject these parts out of the moulds. I've seen in a documentary, that they even make Lego parts out of 2 different plastic colours within ONE Injection Mould. Pretty impressive stuff.

 

[darkborn]

Ermm... this is not complex at all. (...) So when there's a peg, it needs longer to cool off and easily deforms, thus leaving those ugly spots you've seen on early prototype cases.

I really think that somebody should invest little bit more time in material research. I don't want to underestimate anybody, this is a terrific project and we all know that. Just, for such a delicate things it should be checked before... because few adjustments at repro-material could make a great differences. I remember graphs of tolerances, durability etc we studied for different types of polymers... It was funny then but right now I know why was that important.

First, the Pandora was never 350 EUR. (...) Another mould "just to be save" was simply not possible.

I'm sorry I did not want to be rude.
I paid 327,02 GBP, right now it is 376,53 EUR. I paid: "PANDORA CONSOLE, TV OUT, CASE, BATTERY, ADAPTOR".
(It is not money OT got for development, here are taxes, cost of shipment, additional equipment and so on.)
If you think there is something wrong with amount I paid, please contact me private.
This is not about mould, it is about (faulty) contract/insurance of business.

Time is money: 2 moulds = double production. Beside, I'll repeat: I was talking about double contract, not double mould.
IF (and only IF) they made "1st" mould 8-12 months ago, then pandora will be produced in thousands (or ten thousands).

The Pandora design was finished last year in August. The mould couldn't have existed before that.

August was not what was promised before. IT IS THE FACT. Nevermind. Theoretically, mould COULD exist before, depending of designing process. Right now we could say, for example: pnd launcher is not working well, so, design is not finished, so... we will not produce cases. I know that it is not the case, and you are smart guys and so on. It is the way how are things organized: production of mould should not wait because of e.g. changing some small part on the board. I believe that you made your best, it was disappointing for our big expectations, but I'm cool with it.

So, finished in August, add 4 - 5 months and we're in December / January.
We had prototype cases at that time, so we wouldn't have made use of such a double contract, since it all looked fine.

It was already too late to change anything.
I'm not accusing anybody, it was just a lot of bad circumstances. I just don't like situation right now. We are still helpless. Apple, Nokia & Google are working hard to establish their app stores as a standards, and we are still waiting for a Cantonese Godot.

 

[zounder1]

Step 1) Find a local company and use them.
Step 2) Congratulations you have avoided step 2 - 999, and you will feel better about yourself.

IMHO it is f*kin amateurish to depend of only one supplier. This way supplier has you in his hand, with his very own conditions...
Well you already know that now.
Even if mould factory has the best price/conditions on the world, you got to have alternative!

Good grief, it is not amateurish to use one supplier. It is good business sense. Unless you want to call Apple amateurish for using single suppliers for some of their most popular products?

Heck, every major tech company typically produces a specific product with one vendor. They only spread production across multiple vendors when they are caught off guard with demand exceeding the capacity of the one vendor. (And this is when a product is a smash hit and they get caught off guard trying to ramp production quickly to meet demand.) Having one vendor ensures consistent quality of the product.

 

[EvilDragon]

First, the Pandora was never 350 EUR. (...) Another mould "just to be save" was simply not possible.

I'm sorry I did not want to be rude.
I paid 327,02 GBP, right now it is 376,53 EUR. I paid: "PANDORA CONSOLE, TV OUT, CASE, BATTERY, ADAPTOR".

So, yeah. You ordered accessories. We were talking about the Pandora, not accessories.
Because producing those accessories does also cost us additional money.

Also, it won't help if 327,02 GBP is NOW 376,53 EUR.
The question is: How much did you pay when you ordered it?
We bought the parts over a year ago.
Even if 1 EUR would be 1000 USD right now, it wouldn't have helped us when we paid that one year ago.

(It is not money OT got for development, here are taxes, cost of shipment, additional equipment and so on.)

Well, you always have to substract taxes and shipment costs, since that's something we also have to pay.

The Pandora design was finished last year in August. The mould couldn't have existed before that.

August was not what was promised before. IT IS THE FACT.

It's nothing new that we were amateurish enough to think the design could be made way faster. We know that was wrong, we learned it, we apologized for it.
It won't change the fact that the company didn't get any 3D data before August last year.

Nevermind. Theoretically, mould COULD exist before, depending of designing process. Right now we could say, for example: pnd launcher is not working well, so, design is not finished, so... we will not produce cases. I know that it is not the case, and you are smart guys and so on. It is the way how are things organized: production of mould should not wait because of e.g. changing some small part on the board. I believe that you made your best, it was disappointing for our big expectations, but I'm cool with it.

Emmm... how could the company start doing the mould before the 3D data did exist?

Did you only learn how to do it or do you have experience in real business?
Yes, with European or Western companies, you can make timed contracts (if you're lucky).

Good luck trying this with a Chinese company when you want the absolute minimum of their order quantity.
Yes, we have a contract: That they will finish the mould.
Guess what: The mould is finished. They already produced 1000 cases with the mould. And it fits, as the samples Mike got prove. And with the final mould, those 1000 cases have been produced in one day.

So they already fulfilled their contract.

Right now, they are painting the cases. And that's all we're waiting for now.

No other contract with any other company could've helped us make this faster.

 

[darkborn]

Step 1) Find a local company and use them.
Step 2) Congratulations you have avoided step 2 - 999, and you will feel better about yourself.

IMHO it is f*kin amateurish to depend of only one supplier. This way supplier has you in his hand, with his very own conditions...
Well you already know that now.
Even if mould factory has the best price/conditions on the world, you got to have alternative!

Good grief, it is not amateurish to use one supplier. It is good business sense. Unless you want to call Apple amateurish for using single suppliers for some of their most popular products?

Heck, every major tech company typically produces a specific product with one vendor. They only spread production across multiple vendors when they are caught off guard with demand exceeding the capacity of the one vendor. (And this is when a product is a smash hit and they get caught off guard trying to ramp production quickly to meet demand.) Having one vendor ensures consistent quality of the product.

ROFL Apple... major tech company??? So, OpenPandora became classy major tech company.
I'm sure that Craig is now proud if he's reading it...
Wait, you mean THAT Apple which could steal your iControlPad patent without asking you for a penny?
Some apples are bigger then others...

 

[Dead1nside]

They already produced 1000 cases with the mould. And it fits, as the samples Mike got prove. And with the final mould, those 1000 cases have been produced in one day.

I was just wondering, if they can produce 1000 in a day why aren't you expecting a shipment of all 10,000? Are you waiting to receive a smaller batch to quality check it first, before ordering more production?

Thank you.

 

[EvilDragon]

They already produced 1000 cases with the mould. And it fits, as the samples Mike got prove. And with the final mould, those 1000 cases have been produced in one day.

I was just wondering, if they can produce 1000 in a day why aren't you expecting a shipment of all 10,000? Are you waiting to receive a smaller batch to quality check it first, before ordering more production?

Thank you.

Yes, exactly. The samples were fine, but we want to triple check they didn't simply send us the best samples they got

 

[WizardStan]

*big snip*

All I can say is that if you really think it is that easy, prove it. Find one supplier that is willing to produce a mould and only 4000 pieces of the complexity of the Pandora (liken it to the DS for reference) with a binding contract and no money upfront for under $100000, and I will accept you might understand what you are talking about. If you find two, I will bow to you and call you master. If you find three, I will send you $100.

 

[kagato]

Good grief, it is not amateurish to use one supplier. It is good business sense. Unless you want to call Apple amateurish for using single suppliers for some of their most popular products?

Heck, every major tech company typically produces a specific product with one vendor. [...]

ROFL Apple... major tech company??? So, OpenPandora became classy major tech company.
I'm sure that Craig is now proud if he's reading it...

Oh come on, now you're really being disingenuous.
There was no implication in that comment that OpenPandora is "major".

If most major tech companies (such as Apple) typically work with single vendors, why would a tiny outfit like OP use multiple?

There is a very good reason why big companies like Apple get better and faster treatment from their factories. They order parts in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, and have repeat business into the future indefinitely. OpenPandora, on the other hand, has ordered a single production run of the minimum order quantity, with the possible option of maybe a couple more runs in the future.

OP are legitimate paying customers, but they really are small fry. (Any smaller, and they wouldn't be customers at all.) It's not good that they're being treated with some disdain by the factory, but it's honestly not that surprising.


I think the dev team's only real failings in this process have been naïvety, and by extension, overoptimism. They're five guys who have never built an appliance before, so of course they were going to make some project management mistakes. Anyone who though otherwise was being naïve themselves.

By now, I'm sure they've all built up enough pessimistic cynicism that they won't make too many similar mistakes in future. However, if they'd started out with that mindset, the Pandora project probably would have never left the drawing board.

 

[zounder1]

Step 1) Find a local company and use them.
Step 2) Congratulations you have avoided step 2 - 999, and you will feel better about yourself.

IMHO it is f*kin amateurish to depend of only one supplier. This way supplier has you in his hand, with his very own conditions...
Well you already know that now.
Even if mould factory has the best price/conditions on the world, you got to have alternative!

Good grief, it is not amateurish to use one supplier. It is good business sense. Unless you want to call Apple amateurish for using single suppliers for some of their most popular products?

Heck, every major tech company typically produces a specific product with one vendor. They only spread production across multiple vendors when they are caught off guard with demand exceeding the capacity of the one vendor. (And this is when a product is a smash hit and they get caught off guard trying to ramp production quickly to meet demand.) Having one vendor ensures consistent quality of the product.

ROFL Apple... major tech company??? So, OpenPandora became classy major tech company.
I'm sure that Craig is now proud if he's reading it...
Wait, you mean THAT Apple which could steal your iControlPad patent without asking you for a penny?
Some apples are bigger then others...

Sigh. Maybe you should get the dunce cap that Bart gets to wear all the time. Coles note summary: If large companies use one vendor to produce a major product, how the heck can you expect a very small operation like OP to have multiple sources for supplies? It makes no economic sense. It never will. Even big companies use one vendor for a reason; it makes business sense.

With OP, they are small and will always be low in priority compared to larger orders.

EDIT: kagato beat me to the punch. Thank you kagato for articulating such a good reply.

 

[darkborn]

First, the Pandora was never 350 EUR. (...) Another mould "just to be save" was simply not possible.

I'm sorry I did not want to be rude.
I paid 327,02 GBP, right now it is 376,53 EUR. I paid: "PANDORA CONSOLE, TV OUT, CASE, BATTERY, ADAPTOR".

So, yeah. You ordered accessories. We were talking about the Pandora, not accessories.
Because producing those accessories does also cost us additional money.

Nice, just a one little detail... It cost US CUSTOMERS additional money, because WE PAID for that (most of us).
And we didn't get a "Happy New (Chinese?) Year" e-postcard in return (nor accessories).

YOU were talking about Pandora only (replaying to me), I was talking about AMOUNT that ppl paid and got nothing in return.
Please, be consistent.
I'm not accusing you of stealing money, I just said that there is a big amount of money that was circulating around for more then a year. Respect the fact.

THIS is the reason why OT had to make most possible precautions! And playing roulette with mostly unknown factory is not a correct business model, this is what we all know now.
And there is nothing wrong with that they are amateurs. They are all smart guys, imho too smart to got deceived like that.
Lets suppose we are bank, and loan 1 500 000 Eu to somebody for a 2 years. You'll get 150000 of interest for sure. It should be enough for 2nd (identical) mould.
It is not how things happened, and this is not to be used literary. Just to think about numbers (and decisions)...

Obviously, it is not 2 years, and it is not 1 500 000 EUR (or 800 000). But that's not matters.

(...) it wouldn't have helped us when we paid that one year ago.

...agree with that, this is the point.

Emmm... how could the company start doing the mould before the 3D data did exist?

Ok, you stucked with 3D design. I thought it was wifi
It will be better if mechanical parts were solved first, so that mould go to production... obviously, that was not happened. So, August was because of 3D design problems. Nice to know.

Did you only learn how to do it or do you have experience in real business?
Yes, with European or Western companies, you can make timed contracts (if you're lucky).

Good luck trying this with a Chinese company when you want the absolute minimum of their order quantity.
Yes, we have a contract: That they will finish the mould.

I do not have any experience doing business with Chinese, but I know that if you're ordered mould & cases at August last year, and they are still not delivered, something is wrong.
It is more then a 8 moths; I'm sure that it is not what you wanted. Beside, price is based on mould production, not order quantity. I'm still thinking that it is all about stupid contract, but this could happened to almost anybody. Nobody wants to be screwed, and I'm sure that our Chinese friends didn't want to look like incompetent a*holes. This is why contracts are for.
I still believe that Pandora is unique beast on the market, and I believe that you'll return fund investment, and get your name curved in bricks of glorious part of history.
So, I'm believer.

Guess what: The mould is finished. They already produced 1000 cases with the mould. And it fits, as the samples Mike got prove. And with the final mould, those 1000 cases have been produced in one day.

So they already fulfilled their contract.

Right now, they are painting the cases. And that's all we're waiting for now.

No other contract with any other company could've helped us make this faster.

I'm happy with that. I hope that it will all works now as it is planned...

 

[BCable]

It is more then a 8 moths; I'm sure that it is not what you wanted.

Yeah! I wanted a butterfly

 

[WizardStan]

I do not have any experience doing business with Chinese

Your responses in this thread have made that abundantly clear, I must say. I am only saying this now because in all your previous posts you've spoken about how things must and must not be, as if you had been personally dealing with Chinese factories when in fact you are speaking only of how you think things should work. The real world just isn't as simple as you want it to be.

 

[darkborn]

Good grief, it is not amateurish to use one supplier. It is good business sense. Unless you want to call Apple amateurish for using single suppliers for some of their most popular products?

Heck, every major tech company typically produces a specific product with one vendor. [...]

ROFL Apple... major tech company??? So, OpenPandora became classy major tech company.
I'm sure that Craig is now proud if he's reading it...

Oh come on, now you're really being disingenuous.
There was no implication in that comment that OpenPandora is "major".

If most major tech companies (such as Apple) typically work with single vendors, why would a tiny outfit like OP use multiple?

There is a very good reason why big companies like Apple get better and faster treatment from their factories. They order parts in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, and have repeat business into the future indefinitely. OpenPandora, on the other hand, has ordered a single production run of the minimum order quantity, with the possible option of maybe a couple more runs in the future.

OP are legitimate paying customers, but they really are small fry. (Any smaller, and they wouldn't be customers at all.) It's not good that they're being treated with some disdain by the factory, but it's honestly not that surprising.


I think the dev team's only real failings in this process have been naïvety, and by extension, overoptimism. They're five guys who have never built an appliance before, so of course they were going to make some project management mistakes. Anyone who though otherwise was being naïve themselves.

By now, I'm sure they've all built up enough pessimistic cynicism that they won't make too many similar mistakes in future. However, if they'd started out with that mindset, the Pandora project probably would have never left the drawing board.

I agree with you 99,99%... just this one not: IT IS NOT TRUE THAT MOST COMPANIES DEPEND OF ONE VENDOR. TOP 5 % maybe, but it is irrelevant. Even then, there are numerous cases when e.g. Microsoftscrewed up Nvidia at X-box production; Apple screwed up Intel, and so on. I don't believe that I have to explain that.

 

[darkborn]

I do not have any experience doing business with Chinese

Your responses in this thread have made that abundantly clear, I must say. I am only saying this now because in all your previous posts you've spoken about how things must and must not be, as if you had been personally dealing with Chinese factories when in fact you are speaking only of how you think things should work. The real world just isn't as simple as you want it to be.

OK, I'm Chinese, please, gimme $500 000 and I'll promise you that I'll give you ... what ever you want, in a month. Just without a contract.
IS IT SO HARD TO GET IT?

 

[WizardStan]

OK, I'm Chinese, please, gimme $500 000 and I'll promise you that I'll give you ... what ever you want, in a month. Just without a contract.
IS IT SO HARD TO GET IT?

"No contract" is the exact opposite of "binding contract". Stick to your arguments. You're trying to find a factory in China that will do the work OPT needs for the amount of money they have under a contract that they can actually enforce.

 

[darkborn]

Sigh. Maybe you should get the dunce cap that Bart gets to wear all the time. Coles note summary: If large companies use one vendor to produce a major product, how the heck can you expect a very small operation like OP to have multiple sources for supplies? It makes no economic sense. It never will.

Sigh. Heck. Gee. Holly WalMart. Whatever.
So, you wanted to say that large companies are sticked to ONE vendor, even if that vendor is expensive, delaying, or whatever?
Alternative means plan B. It does not mean to jump around suppliers.
But, please, beware. Because, if your McDonald in da hood suddenly close, you could die starving beside BurgerKing.