The Real Business Case For Openpandora

[EvilDragon]

And as the mould did cost over 100.000 USD... I would wonder how we should have financed multiple companies doing multiple moulds...?

 

[darkborn]

BUY (production of) MOULD (this is what you have to do anyway). Sign double contract, with two companies. If one fail, let another one (with compatible production technology) to fight for their part of cake.
Once mould is made, there is nothing that can stop you (beside bad contract) to forward mould to other company.
I don't believe that they couldn't produce mould in few months. It is not their competence in question: it is all about lying. They are holding our investment god knows the reason why.

This entire time, all the delays over the case, has been because the mould has not been finished until recently, just the last couple months. They "started" back in August, they went green light in February, and even then a few more tweaks were done. Having a second company would, at best, have shaved a month off the delay, assuming they actually are really really shipping this week (yeah, I'm an optimist).
Besides, OPT already said the only way they could get anyone to make the mould was to sign up for a minimum order of 10000 parts. I believe them when they say they had no bargaining power.

Yeah, this week... sure. :rolleyes:
I live in small city in small country in Europe.
However, in my city there are DOZENS of "plastic producers": most of them will make 10000(!) cases in a week or two. And any of them will allow few months of grace period (by contract).
Mould could be made in a month, for sure. I'm not sure about prices, but when you count $ losses because of delay, I'm sure that it will be cheaper.
Of course there are "small adjustments" of mould: it could last for a weeks, however:
If you're in doubt, buy/build some RepRap or MakerBot for a 200-1000$, and DIY prototype (Craig please check this!). This way you'll be sure that thing works, and mould will be produced in weeks (including tests and corrections).

Btw, I studied this specific production process at high school: there is nothing complicated here. It is old, well known technology.
We did some simple moulds for our school-projects: it was really expensive, but there were some special contracts between school & mould producers, so we did not buy full price. And those were (mostly) very simple models.

 

[darkborn]

And as the mould did cost over 100.000 USD... I would wonder how we should have financed multiple companies doing multiple moulds...?

Nope. 1 mould, but few contracts. If one fail, let other finish. It is not all about mould: lying has nothing with mould producing.
I am not interested in details, but you have had some insurance/plan B.
Suppose that we got cases 4 months ago (before iPad and other bs): right now you'll be selling 2nd batch and it means fresh money for investment process.
2nd producer in the meantime will be ... well, insurance.

 

[WizardStan]

Mould could be made in a month, for sure.

And herein lies the problem: you don't know that a company is going to shaft you for 8 months until you've already been shafted for 8 months. Were they just supposed to abandon the $100'000 they had already spent on these moulds and take the risk that another company won't just dick around for months when they should be making the mould as well?

 

[EvilDragon]

We did some simple moulds for our school-projects: it was really expensive, but there were some special contracts between school & mould producers, so we did not buy full price. And those were (mostly) very simple models.

The problem is that you probably didn't make a mould as complex as the Pandora one, with nubs, keyboards, LCD slot, etc.
A simple mould which is basically just a box is nothing special - and that's what the company usually does (and does well since years it seems).

And as the mould did cost over 100.000 USD... I would wonder how we should have financed multiple companies doing multiple moulds...?

Nope. 1 mould, but few contracts. If one fail, let other finish. It is not all about mould: lying has nothing with mould producing.

Ehh - and if none of them fail you have to pay tem all?

 

[matzesu]

Too Make a Pandora mould, you must all discard that not look like a Pandora case...

 

[benji_stein]

Mould could be made in a month, for sure.

And herein lies the problem: you don't know that a company is going to shaft you for 8 months until you've already been shafted for 8 months. Were they just supposed to abandon the $100'000 they had already spent on these moulds and take the risk that another company won't just dick around for months when they should be making the mould as well?

Not only that, but if you only have one mould, how are you supposed to get another company to make the cases?

Say OPT looks around, and decides company A will make the better cases/moulds, but has your "contingency" arrangement with company B. So company A makes the moulds (or if you had them already, you send them to A), and the company starts working on it. Lots of delays, promised shipments, fixes, whatever.

Now you decide you want to switch to company B. How, exactly does B start making the cases? A has the moulds, and as much as you tell them you want to cancel the order, and demand that they send the moulds back, A can still drag their heels (just like they have with everthing else!) delay shipments, whatever. You're still in a crappy situation, and now you've angered the company that has your critical one-of-a-kind-because-it-was-really-expensive moulds.

Also, your class' moulds might have been fast, but, as you say, they were simple. The Pandora moulds were complicated, and we knew that from the get-go. Their initial estimate was 45 days, before the dragging-out of delays, samples, tweaks, etc.

 

[darkborn]

Mould could be made in a month, for sure.

And herein lies the problem: you don't know that a company is going to shaft you for 8 months until you've already been shafted for 8 months. Were they just supposed to abandon the $100'000 they had already spent on these moulds and take the risk that another company won't just dick around for months when they should be making the mould as well?

It is already faulted here. When you sign contract, there should be some kind of insurance for this kind of case already.
Let's suppose that we made contract with 2 producers, but only 1 is making mould. So, 1st made first 10000 cases, 2nd other.
In contract should be something like: "If you don't finish mould in 8 months (without reasonable argument), let all you done to other producer and pay extra fee". OK, I know it sound stupid right now but I'm not a lawyer and this is not the first time people are doing this way.
BUT THIS IS PAST.
Can we do something now to help this process?
e.g. I know for Guerilla Marketing, and it is proven.
How about that we organize some (half)official complainings about business policy and organize some type of boycott or something? Fake (business) threats, make contacts with their concurrency...
Let's build biig web site about "companies you can't trust" with main page dedicated to this one?
I know it is cheesy, and this could be easily contra-productive, however... I'm sick of this "2 more months" deja vu feeling.
Any proposal?

 

[darkborn]

We did some simple moulds for our school-projects: it was really expensive, but there were some special contracts between school & mould producers, so we did not buy full price. And those were (mostly) very simple models.

The problem is that you probably didn't make a mould as complex as the Pandora one, with nubs, keyboards, LCD slot, etc.
A simple mould which is basically just a box is nothing special - and that's what the company usually does (and does well since years it seems).

And as the mould did cost over 100.000 USD... I would wonder how we should have financed multiple companies doing multiple moulds...?

Nope. 1 mould, but few contracts. If one fail, let other finish. It is not all about mould: lying has nothing with mould producing.

Ehh - and if none of them fail you have to pay tem all?

If none of them fail, you got double production, you're rich, we're happy... everything's great!

 

[WizardStan]

If none of them fail, you got double production, you're rich, we're happy... everything's great!

If none of them fail, you've now paid twice for something you only needed one of, plus you've likely got way too many of things you only needed about 20'000 of. Paying $100'000 for something you don't need may seem like a great idea to you, but not to me.

 

[darkborn]

The problem is that you probably didn't make a mould as complex as the Pandora one, with nubs, keyboards, LCD slot, etc.
A simple mould which is basically just a box is nothing special - and that's what the company usually does (and does well since years it seems).

OK, look at this. How much is this complex for you? And this is done by "inferior" technology:

It is not extruder - It is "3d printer" (RepRap, you can do it yourself btw)!

Mould for extruding processes is "universal" (kind of), but repro-material (polymer) is a "kinky" part for production (technical specifications etc).

You're from Germany, you should know about BASF: you can order specific (even brand new) type of polymer just for your (specific) purpose!
(We did it when we done school projects). The best part is, BASF technologists will advice you for free (in normal circumstances).
They got catalogs with literary thousands of shapes/patterns, ready to choose from.
Of course, they expect that you will buy repro-material from them.

We got from them moulding (e.g. producing) specifications for every type of material we choose/worked with.
I bet that they will arrange complete production process for us at China (for a relatively small fee), which will be more effective for us in total.

Addendum: Please, look at this document:
http://www.basf.com/group/corporate/en/function/conversions:/publish/content/products-and-industries/images/BASF_SE_AVB-GB-10_2009.pdf
And this is not a "real" contract, it is just a "General Conditions of Sale".
Do we have something like that with our Chinese counterpart?

 

[darkborn]

If none of them fail, you got double production, you're rich, we're happy... everything's great!

If none of them fail, you've now paid twice for something you only needed one of, plus you've likely got way too many of things you only needed about 20'000 of. Paying $100'000 for something you don't need may seem like a great idea to you, but not to me.

No, waiting for year and a half for something that should be done in few months seems to me like a very bad idea, but maybe not for you.
And I'm sure there are thousands of lost souls around that will agree with me. 350eu x 4000 = is still 1400000.
I ALREADY PAID TWICE, one or another way!
Time is money: 2 moulds = double production. Beside, I'll repeat: I was talking about double contract, not double mould.
IF (and only IF) they made "1st" mould 8-12 months ago, then pandora will be produced in thousands (or ten thousands).
It means that OT team will have 1 million of Euro in their pockets, and extra mould will be no extra cost, on the contrary:
it will be a way to speed up things.

 

[WizardStan]

OK, look at this. How much is this complex for you? And this is done by "inferior" technology:

Yes, I hate to say, but that is very, very inferior to the Pandora. 3D printing isn't an option either. How long did it take to print those few parts? Multiply that by about 8 (rough guess) per Pandora, and then multiply that by 10'000. That's how long it would take. This process uses injection moulding, whereby the mould is actually cut from a block of metal. The result is that one complete case can be produced in about 30 seconds.
3D printing works good for when you've got a few to make, but when you want thousands, the only real way to do it is injection moulded.

No, waiting for year and a half for something that should be done in few months seems to me like a very bad idea, but maybe not for you.
And I'm sure there are thousands of lost souls around that will agree with me. 350eu x 4000 = is still 1400000.
I ALREADY PAID TWICE, one or another way!
Time is money: 2 moulds = double production. Beside, I'll repeat: I was talking about double contract, not double mould.
IF (and only IF) they made "1st" mould 8-12 months ago, then pandora will be produced in thousands (or ten thousands).
It means that OT team will have 1 million of Euro in their pockets, and extra mould will be no extra cost, on the contrary:
it will be a way to speed up things.

So what you are saying they should have done is, 6 months ago, after the first milestone was passed, they should have told the company that they had already given $100'000 to that they were no longer interested, and gone on to try a second company? I still don't understand what exactly you're saying, and I think it's because you don't actually understand what is required.
They found a company that can create injection moulds. These are not standard. Every one is different. They need to be custom cut from blocks of metal. In order to do this, they had to agree to a minimum run of 10'000 pieces, and pay all the money up front. I am taking them at their word that there was no other way than to pay everything up front. I'm sure if there was, they would have taken it. So this company gave a 45 day estimate. After 45 days have passed, and they're still not quite finished, but they promise they're almost there, what would you have done?

edit: just to make one thing absolutely clear, making the cases is not the bottle neck. Getting the plastic pieces is fast, very fast. Take the mould, inject hot plastic into it, pop the mould apart, go to the next.
The slow part is making the mould, taking the block of metal and removing everything that isn't a Pandora (or I guess removing everything that is a Pandora, since you need a negative). Once they've got the mould, it is (supposed to be) simple to produce all the cases that have been ordered. In theory they should be able to do about 1000 per day. Having two moulds will not speed things up in anyway. All that will happen is they'll have paid twice for something they only need one of.

 

[jimshorttwig]

edit: just to make one thing absolutely clear, making the cases is not the bottle neck.

No. I guess they didn't just wait until a year later to make the mold for the cases. Constantly tweaking and tweaking until it meets the standards of the gods themselves, the gods of disappointment that is.

 

[WizardStan]

No. I guess they didn't just wait until a year later to make the mold for the cases. Constantly tweaking and tweaking until it meets the standards of the gods themselves, the gods of disappointment that is.

I don't know if you're agreeing with me or sarcastically trying to insult me, so I'll just reword what I said, just in case.
The cases are not the bottle neck. Making the mould for the cases is the bottle neck. Once one mould is done, there will be no speed to be gained having two moulds. Just need the one.

 

[fusion_power]

Now, that the soup is nearly eaten, the "Experts" pop up here in this Forums.
Guys, I believe that you all have some knowledge but I have to say: where were your tipps and helping suggestions 2 Years ago? ^_^

And yes, the Pandora Case IS complicated but not THAT comlicated to justify 8 Months of fiddeling around! I've seen special Lego-bricks that are far more complex than the entire pandora case and they did these parts (mostly Lego Technic) just from a single piece. maybe it is just to complicated for this chinese Factory, I don't know.
Wikipedia says that Lego elements are manufactured within a tolerance of 2 µm -thats pretty accurate I think.

 

[Tom`]

No. I guess they didn't just wait until a year later to make the mold for the cases. Constantly tweaking and tweaking until it meets the standards of the gods themselves, the gods of disappointment that is.

I don't know if you're agreeing with me or sarcastically trying to insult me, so I'll just reword what I said, just in case.
The cases are not the bottle neck. Making the mould for the cases is the bottle neck. Once one mould is done, there will be no speed to be gained having two moulds. Just need the one.

Take a look at the user numbers associated with "billlongstick" and "jimshorttwig" ....

 

[jimshorttwig]

No. I guess they didn't just wait until a year later to make the mold for the cases. Constantly tweaking and tweaking until it meets the standards of the gods themselves, the gods of disappointment that is.

I don't know if you're agreeing with me or sarcastically trying to insult me, so I'll just reword what I said, just in case.
The cases are not the bottle neck. Making the mould for the cases is the bottle neck. Once one mould is done, there will be no speed to be gained having two moulds. Just need the one.

Take a look at the user numbers associated with "billlongstick" and "jimshorttwig" ....

dont forget farewell, phiberhx, jpleveillee, and the countless others i use. im well known but nobody really knows who i am...

 

[Tempel]

OK, look at this. How much is this complex for you? And this is done by "inferior" technology:

It is not extruder - It is "3d printer" (RepRap, you can do it yourself btw)!

Interesting fact: the Pandora's prototype cases were made using Fused Deposition Modeling, a process that, I understand, is one form of 3D printing. These prototypes were made quickly and proved that the case design would hold the internals. But they looked like garbage (and yes, FDM production does not scale up to large quantities nearly as well as injection moulding does).

So all the time spent fiddling with the mould was an attempt to make the injected plastic keep the same shape as these initial prototypes. Cooling liquid plastic shrinks in funny ways, so it took time to accomplish.

 

[EvilDragon]

And yes, the Pandora Case IS complicated but not THAT comlicated to justify 8 Months of fiddeling around! I've seen special Lego-bricks that are far more complex than the entire pandora case and they did these parts (mostly Lego Technic) just from a single piece.

I'd love to see that lego brick.
I know Lego technics, but I haven't seen a single brick that is more complex than the Pandora case.

According to one guys who works in moulding (he posted here a few months ago), a mould like the Pandora usually takes about 5 - 6 months.
Add some Chinese lazy-ness and we're there.

OK, look at this. How much is this complex for you? And this is done by "inferior" technology

Ermm... this is not complex at all. My guess is that it has about 5% the complexity the Pandora has.
This is just a simple case with a few holes. Just look at the upper part of the Pandora bottom (the one with the keyboard in): Besides the keyboard holes (which have to be VERY accurate), we've got quite a lot of posts and pegs in the inside to make sure the board is sitting exactly as it should, there is the complete hinge area with some snap-ins inside the hinge and a slot for the LCD cable, etc.
It's WAY more complex.
The hard thing is not cutting something like this out of the plastic. The hard thing is doing a mould with all those pegs that doesn't leave any dulls or shrinking marks when the hot plastic cools off. The thicker the plastic, the longer it takes to cool off. So when there's a peg, it needs longer to cool off and easily deforms, thus leaving those ugly spots you've seen on early prototype cases.

No, waiting for year and a half for something that should be done in few months seems to me like a very bad idea, but maybe not for you.

We all don't like waiting. Still, paying for a second mould was just out of option. Where should we have gotten the money from?

And I'm sure there are thousands of lost souls around that will agree with me. 350eu x 4000 = is still 1400000.

First, the Pandora was never 350 EUR. It's 330USD at GBAX.com or 251 EUR (without VAT) at GP2X.de (at the beginning it was 209 EUR, and most bought back then).
So approximately, we got about 220 EUR per Pandora. 220 EUR * 4000 = 880000 EUR.

I don't have all the quotes in my head right now, but AFAIR SoC, WiFi chip, antennas, LCD, etc. add up to about 200 EUR per Pandora.
These parts have been ordered and paid a long time ago. So from those 880000 EUR, 200EUR * 4000 = 800000 EUR have been used for the parts.
That does leave about 80.000 EUR.

The case mould is over 100.000 USD. Then there's the mould for the keymat, a lot of shipping costs (the last shipment of the boards alone did cost 3000 Pound), etc.
There are 100 Rev4 testing boards which won't be sold but used for press, etc. Those are additional 20000 EUR.

Add that all up and you can see that we invested already A LOT more than we got. We used that from our private savings.

Another mould "just to be save" was simply not possible.

Time is money: 2 moulds = double production. Beside, I'll repeat: I was talking about double contract, not double mould.
IF (and only IF) they made "1st" mould 8-12 months ago, then pandora will be produced in thousands (or ten thousands).

The Pandora design was finished last year in August. The mould couldn't have existed before that.
The normal time frame (according to some companies we asked) for such a complex mould is about 4 - 5 months. I know it can be done in a few weeks if you go to Europe (technically more advanced than the machines in China), but the quotes we got were about 5 - 6 times as high. So not possible.

So, finished in August, add 4 - 5 months and we're in December / January.
We had prototype cases at that time, so we wouldn't have made use of such a double contract, since it all looked fine.

We got physically fully working moulds, just waiting for the last cosmetic tweaks and now the painting.

If we had said in February "Okay guys, that's it, it looks like you won't finish" and went on to the other company, we would have to wait another 4 - 5 months (and it could turn out they also can't do it better) and we'd have to pay the first company for the mould.

Paying twice, waiting even longer. Doesn't sound like a good idea if you ask me.