The Real Business Case For Openpandora


EvilDragon

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benji_stein said:
On the other hand, I'd still like to hear any of your theory admitted by OPT. They're always so quick to lay the blame somewhere else (not always incorrectly), that I'd like to hear them say that at least *some* of the delay might, just maybe, have been their fault.

Hm, I remember we admitted quite a lot of times that there were huge delays because we didn't know better when we announced or decided something.
But at the moment, there's not much we can do except wait - the current delay is not our fault :)
 
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benji_stein

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WizardStan said:
I know you're no troll, I'm usually a pretty good judge. I was just making a joke, hence the tongue smiley and why I went on to answer the question as best I can; I didn't expect ED to be around to answer as well. I'm consistently unfunny, but it doesn't stop me from trying. :) \

Yeah, and I knew you knew. It did make me chuckle, but I'm running on far too little sleep right now, so I'm not which way to interpret that. I originally hadn't had that in my response, but decided to put it in just in case others didn't realize it.

WizardStan said:
Oh yeah, they've definitely made a lot of mistakes along the way. Thing is, I don't think I wouldn't have made the same mistakes. That's part of what is making this so interesting for me: I had once had similar ideas and watching someone else make the mistakes first hand is really, really enlightening.

I agree with you 111% (110 is a boring number). I do really appreciate how (mostly) open and forthcoming they are about these things; it's a great learning experience. And while I forgive some of the earlier stuff, I'm continually amazed at their still giving best case estimates (no pun intended). And, to date, I've still not seen anything from those first few months that wasn't attributed to the financial crisis, or even that their earliest estimates were completely unreasonable. (Even more so in hindsight, but should have been, then.)

EvilDragon said:
Hm, I remember we admitted quite a lot of times that there were huge delays because we didn't know better when we announced or decided something.
But at the moment, there's not much we can do except wait - the current delay is not our fault :)

Well, I've been following on-and-off since the days of the long post about the Craginator (more on as time gets closer and closer). I'll admit that there were off-times that I never went back to reread forum posts, so I may have missed some. Any chance you have a link to one?

I definitely don't think you've been at fault for everything, and you've had a nasty string of bad luck. (Volcano, anyone?) And while there's nothing more you can do about the cases right now, it's not like there weren't other things that could have been done to make speedups along the way. I remember a number of suggestions a while back to send someone to China to nag/immediately approve cases, which could have potentially shaved off months of delays. Maybe some cases could have even shipped before CNY. We'll never know. Yes it would have been costly, and yes it would have been time consuming.

I get that you have other jobs, and I get that you (that's the OPT "you", not the ED "you") can't do everything. But there's also something to be said for getting it finally finished and shipping, that would not only increase customer happiness, but also generate media buzz, more preorders, and other work. There's a reason so many companies are concerned with getting a product out there first. (Though that's not a good excuse to not do a good job.)

So yes, there's not much we can do right now, and it's not entirely your fault. But it's also not as if there wasn't more that *could* have been done, had you been so inclined. But, as always, what's done is done, and we shouldn't dwell too much on the past.
 
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Garrick

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Monk said:
-snip-

So ends the "Pro Pandora" segment of this post.

EvilDragon said:
According to one guys who works in moulding (he posted here a few months ago), a mould like the Pandora usually takes about 5 - 6 months.
Add some Chinese lazy-ness and we're there.

It'd be nice to know who "Some Guy" was - all the people I've noticed working in the industray have tended to say that they think the mold should have been turned around quicker, job done betetr, from their experience (usually not in China).

EvilDragon said:
The Pandora design was finished last year in August. The mould couldn't have existed before that.
The normal time frame (according to some companies we asked) for such a complex mould is about 4 - 5 months. I know it can be done in a few weeks if you go to Europe (technically more advanced than the machines in China), but the quotes we got were about 5 - 6 times as high. So not possible.

So, finished in August, add 4 - 5 months and we're in December / January.

A whole month is a bit of a wide target, but I'd make that January/February myself. The Pandora design was finished in August 2009? Interesting.

EvilDragon said:
It's nothing new that we were amateurish enough to think the design could be made way faster. We know that was wrong, we learned it, we apologized for it.
It won't change the fact that the company didn't get any 3D data before August last year.

Important fact.

EvilDragon said:
Right now, they are painting the cases. And that's all we're waiting for now.

All of that is very interesting. Especially the bit about them still being painted, so NOT, in fact, finsihed and waiting to be shipped, regardless of the first volcanic eruption.

Monk, you have a grand habit of pointing out things that most of our brains have probably trained themselves against reading, in some kind of vain self-defence against the obvious. I applaud you sir.
 
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Dervish

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Hmm a lot of 22/22 hindsight in this thread. But suppose the lessons are:

1) Doing hard things is hard.
 

darkborn

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Monk said:
@darkborn, WizardStan is actually kinda bright (...)
Thanks for your effort, you're 100% right.
"Plan B" is all I wanted to say. And not for now, for the future decisions.

I'm not native English speaker, and sometimes is really hard to express yourself precisely at foreign language.
When somebody act stupid, it doesn't help.

I knew that WizardStan is actually kinda bright, so it was hurting me that he continue to misunderstand what I'm saying, hunting me like in some cheap chess party.
It is dumb & dumber game:
I can't explain things more then some can act stupid.
@WizardStan:
Well, you won.

@Monk
Sad thing is that, when you compare your efforts to calm down things here, and oh-so-funny Elvin CR Atombenders replay:
"Destroy 'm my maggots" ...it seems he doesn't even care.

Hopefully, there will be always some nice guy like ED to try to resolve things. Respect.

I was wondering before why are so many offended people at this forum...
And now I got it. When you show doubt in Baldricks Ingenious Plan - you're heretic:
"F* you customers, you're stupid trolls, maggots please please censor 'm asap!"

That's not hurting me. It is behavior of spoonfed child, we already learned it.
I like children, even when they are nasty.

What is hurting me is common slave attitude which is shown when maggots of Supreme Commander starts to show from Supreme *ss.
Call me a troll, it is better then be a maggot. I got my spine, maggots won't ever.
Just look at this redneck fascist:
Alerino said:
GP32x Pandora boards should be frozen until shipping starts.
I'm just full of all those trolls trying to teach OPT enterpreneurship lessons. Damn you bitches!
There is no such thing as a time machine. Get over it. Accept the scenario or get the hell outta here.
Mods, don't be shy to shoot in the head when threads like this show up.
@alerino: Dear, you did your homework, now go home to Commander *ss, you'll get your bone.
There is no future for this project this way.
Hypocrit != open minded.
 
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WizardStan

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darkborn said:
No I haven't. Unless you understand why your idea (while admirable in theory) does not work in reality, we have both lost. :(
 
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darkborn

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WizardStan said:
darkborn said:
No I haven't. Unless you understand why your idea (while admirable in theory) does not work in reality, we have both lost. :(
How about this:
Let suppose that His Majesty decide to get half shipment from UPS, and half from e. g. DHL.
If half stucked because of... volcano, maybe second part finds your way to destination.
I really can't get it what's wrong with it?
 
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EvilDragon

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benji_stein said:
Well, I've been following on-and-off since the days of the long post about the Craginator (more on as time gets closer and closer). I'll admit that there were off-times that I never went back to reread forum posts, so I may have missed some. Any chance you have a link to one?

I know I did post that a few times in some of the countless threads here... could take ages to find. But I know I recently mentioned it in the MaxConsole interview.
 
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WizardStan

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darkborn said:
How about this:
Let suppose that His Majesty decide to get half shipment from UPS, and half from e. g. DHL.
If half stucked because of... volcano, maybe second part finds your way to destination.
I really can't get it what's wrong with it?
You can't split a single item into multiple shipments though. One mould. Just one. Not two, exactly one. If we were talking about the LCDs, or resistors, or any of the other off-the-shelf components, yes, you can. Multiple parts can be sourced from multiple locations. When you want someone to paint you a picture, you don't ask one artist to paint the top half and another artist to do the bottom half.

How about his:
Let's suppose that His Majesty needs exactly 10'000 widgets. No more, no less. He has to get these 10'000 widgets for at about $100'000. He finds many companies, every single one of them will make him exactly 10'000 widgets or more (but never less) for $100'000.
Now, he could hire two, in the chance that one fails him, but what if both succeed? He now has 20'000 widgets he can't use and a $100'000 bill he can't pay.
There are hundreds of plastics companies in China that could do the work. Every single one has a similar set of terms. To an outside observer, there is no difference from one to the next. They went with a company that Fatih had previously worked with, someone whom they thought they could trust. They could have picked any other company, but they had no experience with any other company. This should have been a good deal for everyone.
So they signed the contract, paid the money upfront (which they, with no financial history and such a large order were required to do). After some time it was apparent that the company was screwing around with them and it was taking far longer than it should. What would you propose they do? They have already paid for the moulds that don't yet exist. Should they abandon the $100'000 they've already paid, and take the risk that a second company will not shaft them in the same way?
 
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jottt

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socket said:
EvilDragon said:
socket said:
EvilDragon said:
I can hold my breath for 10min :p
I'm Bobbin Threadbare are you my mother?

Yes. I weaved you.
Look behind you, a three-headed monkey!

Nah...won't fall for that one...again.

Good Morning most beloved Forum, btw!
3head.gif
 

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Monk

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darkborn said:
Thanks for your effort, you're 100% right.
"Plan B" is all I wanted to say. And not for now, for the future decisions.

Ah, well when it's possible/practical, it's always better to have a "Plan B". I usually have plans B through D. Sometimes more. Just in case. It is not always possible :(


darkborn said:
It is dumb & dumber game:

@Monk
Sad thing is that, when you compare your efforts to calm down things here, and oh-so-funny Elvin CR Atombenders replay:
"Destroy 'm my maggots" ...it seems he doesn't even care.

Thanks. Alas, manners and name-calling and the like are a two-way street. If insults fly in both directions then clarity becomes hard to find. True, "the other guy" SHOULD behave better - but if I do not behave betetr myself, I can hardly expect him to do so. Treat others the way you wish to be treated. For example, terms like:

darkborn said:
"F* you customers, you're stupid trolls, maggots please please censor 'm asap!"

That's not hurting me. It is behavior of spoonfed child, we already learned it.
I like children, even when they are nasty.

What is hurting me is common slave attitude which is shown when maggots of Supreme Commander starts to show from Supreme *ss.
Call me a troll, it is better then be a maggot. I got my spine, maggots won't ever.
Just look at this redneck fascist:

That is just full of insults which will not convince people that you are a "good guy". It does the opposite. If anyone thinks badly of you before you post such things, be sure you will have "proven them right".

This does not mean you can not say negative things. I say negative things all the time. This project is full of reasons to be negative. However, one does not also have to be unpleasant IMHO.

Insults are not the way to go. It is always possible to lead by example. If others around you are huffing and puffing and name-calling while you remain calm, rational, and polite - who will look better? Who will BE better?

Then, sometimes, by being polite you can encourage the people you converse with to be polite, and suddenly we have no trolls on either side - just reasonable people trying, with limited language tools, to express opinions and ideas. :D
 
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Monk

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LOL nah - I don't have the hair for it. But if you check out any photo of ED...

The closest I've ever come to the messiah is creating an image of a character holding a placard containing the message "It's a sign!".
 

darkborn

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Monk said:
Insults are not the way to go.
My bad. Imo insults worth nothing. Just... I don't feel I started.
I'm insulted with Supreme Commander attitude, nobody likes to be called troll... but never mind, won't happen again, I hope.
 
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darkborn

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WizardStan said:
darkborn said:
How about this:
Let suppose that His Majesty decide to get half shipment from UPS, and half from e. g. DHL.
If half stucked because of... volcano, maybe second part finds your way to destination.
I really can't get it what's wrong with it?
You can't split a single item into multiple shipments though. One mould. Just one. Not two, exactly one. If we were talking about the LCDs, or resistors, or any of the other off-the-shelf components, yes, you can. Multiple parts can be sourced from multiple locations.
darkborn said:
MOULD is expensive part, production is not.
darkborn said:
BUY (production of) MOULD (this is what you have to do anyway).
darkborn said:
Nope. 1 mould, but few contracts.
darkborn said:
In contract should be something like: "If you don't finish mould in 8 months (without reasonable argument), let all you done to other producer and pay extra fee". (...) BUT THIS IS PAST. Can we do something now to help this process?
darkborn said:
IT IS POINTLESS. I'll try for last time: (...) I never said that it should be done 2 or more moulds... but even that could be better then situation that we have now.
darkborn said:
This is not about mould, it is about (faulty) contract/insurance of business.
darkborn said:
"Plan B" is all I wanted to say. And not for now, for the future decisions.
 
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darkborn

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Monk said:
LOL nah - I don't have the hair for it. But if you check out any photo of ED...

The closest I've ever come to the messiah is creating an image of a character holding a placard containing the message "It's a sign!".
It's a sign! We got messiah!
 
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