The Rabbit Joint

[declaration]

If people genuinely under their own free will choose to sell an organ then I would not object to this. They own themselves. The liver is not a legitimate example because you can't sell your liver and survive. Once you are dead you no longer own your own body so at this point the state could choose allocation.

To be honest, I am shocked that you believe that a market for body organs is ok. That there should be no waiting lists, and that the rich should just be able to buy a transplant on ebay.

Unbelievable.

btw: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yo...ire/6262328.stm
It could be possible in the future.

A waiting list is fairest because it doesn't distinguish between people full stop, except in terms of how desperately the treatment is needed.

One human life is not worth more than another regardless of what the market says.

I object to your use of the word "steal". They go there on their own volition. The public sector doesn't 'own' people, or at least I hope not.

They effectively own members of the armed forces. If Private Joe Bloggs wanted to start offering a private army for rent to rich individuals, the law would say he could not.

Defence, law and order, education, fire services, and healthcare are above the market and should be treated as such.

 

[LHC]

To be honest, I am shocked that you believe that a market for body organs is ok. That there should be no waiting lists, and that the rich should just be able to buy a transplant on ebay.

Unbelievable.

A waiting list is fairest because it doesn't distinguish between people full stop, except in terms of how desperately the treatment is needed.

One human life is not worth more than another regardless of what the market says.

People can do what they want with their own body. I bet there is somebody right now that needs a kidney, but I suspect you are not keen to donate yours. Do you not believe that people should be able choose to donate to a family member rather than an unknown? As I've said when dead none of this applies.

I'd suspect that there would be many more kidneys available if they could be sold. I might even consider selling one of mine if somebody gave me the right price. As things stand only a close relative would stand a chance. This would benefit everybody. There would still be the organs of the dead available (for free, waiting list whatever) but there would be an alternative for those that are willing to pay.

Let me demonstrate.
CODE

A B
X 20 20
Y 5 15

The number is the time on a organ waiting list. Society X is equal, everybody on a waiting list waits the same amount of time for a kidney, selling organs is illegal. Society Y is unequal. If you are willing and able to get an organ from a willing live donor you can, or you can wait on the dead donor waiting list which is regulated by the state. As people sell kidneys, more are available, and even the dead donor list is shorter.

Which society do you prefer? If you actually prefer X to Y then you are willing to deprive members of class A in society Y of their relative advantage, making them worse of than they would otherwise be, and without benefiting members of class B, simply to prevent them having more than those of class B. You would waste - chuck away - those extra resourses even though doing so would make some worse off and none better off. This is absurd.

 

[declaration]

You are advocating a society where people in severe poverty, often through little fault of their own, will resort to selling their own organs to pay their debts. Also a society where people can skip waiting lists to buy an organ, with poor patients facing little or no chance.

All because of some twisted notion of self-ownership that you have unnecessarily taken to the extreme.

If you believe that we all own our own bodies, and should have the rights to do whatever we want to them, then I am sure you will have no problem with people buying, selling, and advertising heroin?

In reality, any civilised society puts many constraints on individuals liberty in order to help society. People aren't allowed to buy or sell certain substances. Prostitution is illegal. Private armies and police forces are illegal. Kids have to go to school. I am merely advocating extending these restrictions to outlawing private medical insurance. You should be arguing that this line goes too far rather than using silly notions of self-ownership to justify anything and everything.

I'd suspect that there would be many more kidneys available if they could be sold. I might even consider selling one of mine if somebody gave me the right price. As things stand only a close relative would stand a chance. This would benefit everybody. There would still be the organs of the dead available (for free, waiting list whatever) but there would be an alternative for those that are willing to pay.

What? Doesn't self-ownership extend to being able to pass on your organs to your family in a will much like any other property? In that case, families will just sell organs to the highest bidder, leaving those who cannot afford an organ to die.

 

[LHC]

You are advocating a society where people in severe poverty, often through little fault of their own, will resort to selling their own organs to pay their debts. Also a society where people can skip waiting lists to buy an organ, with poor patients facing little or no chance.

In selling an organ they would be saving a life. As such a fan of social responsibility surely you would support a system whereby the chance of receiving an organ donation would be increased. They would be 'skipping' waiting lists, there would be two separate lists. Live donors/dead donors. The number of donors would increase dramatically and the dead donor list would diminish in size, benefiting everybody. I said "You would waste - chuck away - those extra resourses even though doing so would make some worse off and none better off." How is this good for the health of a nation? It would relieve middle class guilt I suppose, but it wouldn't benefit the poor in real terms.

If you believe that we all own our own bodies, and should have the rights to do whatever we want to them then I am sure you will have no problem with people buying, selling, and advertising heroin?

In reality, any civilised society puts many constraints on individuals liberty in order to help society. People aren't allowed to buy or sell certain substances. Prostitution is illegal.

Banning drugs is bad and stupid. Prostitution is according to this site not illegal, nor should it be.

edit:

What? Doesn't self-ownership extend to being able to pass on your organs to your family in a will much like any other property? In that case, families will just sell organs to the highest bidder, leaving those who cannot afford an organ to die.

"Once you are dead you no longer own your own body "

now i am going to bed, so don't expect a response

 

[declaration]

Banning drugs may not be effective, but limiting who can sell them, and who they may sell them to, is necessary.

Also, if you lose ownership of your body at death, and are unable to pass ownership on through a will, does this mean you are against inheritance? Because then we might agree on something.

Anyway, I've enjoyed this little debate in a weird sort of way so good night.

 

[trooper]

Oh, I was going to offer everyone a cup of tea, Oh well.

Trooper

 

[Javacat]

Just over 5 months until xmas

 

[Nova]

This Live Earth thing reeks of hypocracy. I mean, I don't know how much energy it's going to take to power all those concerts, but at a guess, I'm sure it aint going to have a positive effect on the climate.

 

[LHC]

Banning drugs may not be effective, but limiting who can sell them, and who they may sell them to, is necessary.

I agree inasmuch as before 18 (or the point of maturity, which may vary from person to person) one cannot consent. Beyond this we should be allowed to make 'mistakes'.

Also, if you lose ownership of your body at death, and are unable to pass ownership on through a will, does this mean you are against inheritance? Because then we might agree on something.

Inheritance is different because that covers material goods, not required for survival. They can be given away in life. Organs that are required for survival can't be given away until death.

That is to say if you get rid of inheritance people would simply sign their money/property/whatever to their sons/daughters before they die. The majority of people have some idea when they are going to die, although not everybody. It's not fair to punish those (or their family) for getting hit by a bus or whatever.

This Live Earth thing reeks of hypocracy. I mean, I don't know how much energy it's going to take to power all those concerts, but at a guess, I'm sure it aint going to have a positive effect on the climate.

Yeah its pretty stupid for a host of reasons, although I suspect they will justify that with particular hypocrisy claims that in the long term people will cut down their greenhouse gas emissions. Which may be bullshit, I dunno. They will probably be 2% solar powered also, and discourage litter.

 

[triksR4rabits]

This Live Earth thing reeks of hypocracy. I mean, I don't know how much energy it's going to take to power all those concerts, but at a guess, I'm sure it aint going to have a positive effect on the climate.

yea, I know what you mean, but at the same time- at least it's something, you know? speaking of Live Earth, Gore's son just got busted for various pills and some weed whilst in his shiny environmentally friendly Prius :lol:

 

[sensible GP32]

alright im back from sensible soccer day!

and well I BLOODY WON IT!

i won an xbox 360 prem pack, a selection of games and This Television

i will post a thread about the day later i guess with pics

 

[Goity]

alright im back from sensible soccer day!

and well I BLOODY WON IT!

i won an xbox 360 prem pack, a selection of games and This Television

i will post a thread about the day later i guess with pics


congrats and the like, you skank! now go and sell the xbox and get a ps3, yes?

 

[sensible GP32]

nah i think i'll keep it its not bad after all and well i can sell my old xbox now!

here are a few pics to tie you over,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/codemasters/7...in/set-72<-- me on the right not coping very well at the prospect of playing the final.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/codemasters/7...57600516905262/ <- my trophy sold glass bitches.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/codemasters/7...57600516905262/ <- a very heavy tv

http://www.flickr.com/photos/codemasters/7...57600516905262/ <- me with jon hare from behind.

 

[lubidog]

Bloody hell! That's amazing! We should be proud that one of our own has done this!!!

Marvellous work. Really well done. I would be v.drunk now!

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

here are a few pics to tie you over

Whew, thanks man. You have no idea what I was experiencing! Cold sweats, the shakes, etc, etc

 

[lubidog]

@DCGM you sarcy bastartd! Careful Evol doesn't come over here and tell you off from his fucking high horse!

Anyway, I was just browsing amazon and reading the reviews for the new (rubbish, apparently) psp camera. This made me smile...




Fun: *****
I bought the go!cam for my son for his birthday and thought I'd try it out before the day (obviously when he was tucked up in bed!) It's a small camera which has a small screw to secure it to your psp so it will never fall off and comes with a little case for you to store it in when not in use. It has a rotating mechanism so you can aim at something or self portrait. Much to my frustration, I couldn't get it to work at first and thought it was faulty aaaarrrgghhhh!!

However, I went on the www.mypsp.com site and it's review mentions that it runs on FIRMWARE 3.40 or higher (this isn't really made clear on the instructions) - so I downloaded the firmware and it worked first time! It's a brilliant picture for my son to have loads of fun with and I know he's gonna love it! I had to download the firefox browser to get the go!edit software. It took a couple of attempts to get go!edit but eventually worked (you must be registered to the mypsp site first). I haven't tried the software yet but it's a full game download that offers photo & video shoots, slide shows, album, templates and editing.

Anyway it's sony entertainment - you know it's gonna be good!





Pity the poor kid when he finds his precious 1.5 f/w psp has been upgraded!

 

[TelcoLou]

Pity the poor kid when he finds his precious 1.5 f/w psp has been upgraded!

:lol:

... actually, I haven't touched my PSP in months! I'm such a slacker

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

I just saw Transformers, and I must concur with Ravnos; watching it was similar to the pain I would experience if I were to pull my penis off from my body.

Well, that comment only applies to the final ~30 minutes or so.

On the bright side, admission was worth it. Why? Well, Megan Fox is a fucking FOX! WOO!

 

[foleyjo]

I want to watch transformers

 

[Nova]

nah i think i'll keep it its not bad after all and well i can sell my old xbox now!

here are a few pics to tie you over,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/codemasters/7...in/set-72<-- me on the right not coping very well at the prospect of playing the final.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/codemasters/7...57600516905262/ <- my trophy sold glass bitches.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/codemasters/7...57600516905262/ <- a very heavy tv

http://www.flickr.com/photos/codemasters/7...57600516905262/ <- me with jon hare from behind.





Congrats dude. I'm so proud *sniff*.

Yeah, but well done, you must be a SWOS demon...