Refugee Situation in Europe

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___

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I gotta get this off of my chest. I am really interested in hearing your experiences, especially if you are not from Europe.


Right now I am in deep depression. I have to go through lots and lots of footage from syria and refugee camps, also lots of footage of refugees at the European borders, mediterranean sea and so on.


I find it absolutely mind boggling, how anyone can ignore this situation, let alone support what is going on at the moment. I see these pictures every day, because I have to cut a lot of material and prepare it as footage for trailers and on stage video. At the same time I hear people on the internet and on the streets in Germany saying "let them drown", "we do not need more immigrants" and hateful stuff towards these people in need. Many claim that they are only coming to steal our stuff and social services, even that most of them have disguised themselves as syrians to infiltrate "us".


How can anyone be so stupid? Obviously we need to think long term and deal with the refugee situation. It cannot be a solution to close down borders and let people outside die on the open sea. But we need to help! Isn't it proof enough to cross thousands of kilometres on foot, getting shot at by soldiers and raiders on the way, losing kids and friends to starvation crossing deserts and then risking your life on a tiny dinghy that you are in need of asylum?


These hatemongers are saying things like "I can only see men trying to come over here, and why can they afford cellphones?" and don't seem to realize, that they had to leave their families behind because they deserted from countries where it is punishable by death to leave or even put down arms. The had to leave their wifes and children, because they would die during the journey. And they were able to afford cellphone just as we do, because they used to be completely normal people before they had to flee! The first thing I'd pack if I had to make a run for the border, would be my smart phone for gps and news coverage. Where is this coming from? 


What bothers me most is how easily people look the other way. I was very glad to see, that there is still a lot of people in Germany who, instead of blabbing on facebook, take it to the streets and actually help. A couple of weeks ago 8000(!!!) refugees arrived on several trains in Dortmund where I live, and there where literally hundreds of people who just showed up with blankets and food, books, clothes and they stayed over several weeks, taking shifts to aid the NGOs, but also to keep a watchful eye out for neonazis (Dortmund is sort of a hot spot, many militant nazi hooligans in the suburbs).


At the same time there has been numerous protests of racists/xenophobes all over cities in Germany with more than 20.000 participants on numerous occasions! They have even started lighting refugee shelters on fire on a regular basis (talking about Germany it's been 28 arsons in 2015 alone, 35 in 2014 and to put this in perspective 2011 it was almost none, still too much).


I had to read a lot of shameful posts from idiots in the UK, basically claiming the same things dumb people in Germany are bigotting. Since English is the only language I speak, I can't really compare to other european countries... how is it there right now? Does this bother you guys? How about you US Americans out there, do you guys even get a lot of news coverage about this?
 
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fusion_power

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Hm, complex theme. Here in germany we have (obviously) not much other themes in media right now. I personaly don't worry much about the refugees in general but I very worry about our politicans, because they still don't have a long term plan. More and more refugees arrive, there are not enough housings or whatever is needed to bring these people over the winter. And more and more arrive.


It's actualy inacceptable that most of the other countries in Europe do less to nothing to also welcome more refugees, even rich one like England or France. So it confuses me at least a little bit about your critics about germany. Yes there are a few people that may yell "let them drown" but this is not the majority. I more  worry about Countries like hungary were a intolerant straight right gouvernment seals off the entire country. And nobody punishes them for that (EU wise). And nobody complains about these intolerant east europe people where almost noboy wants refugees in their country. Even countries like France, Swizerland, Austria have a very right gouvernment now (in germany, these would be almost called"Nazis" ) but nobody outside of germany seems to care.


But as soon as in germany some weirdos complain about the millions of refugees that arrive here (and next year too of course), everyone only looks at that.  I find this not very fair.


Of course people are worried here, there are often not enough jobs or housings for german people (depending on the region). How they will manage to include Millions of refugees? I would really like to see the Master Plan of this but like sayed, german politicans don't have any. Merkels philosophy is to say and do nothing, that's what she was  elected for and it worked as long as the refugee situation was not present. Now this fails completely.
 
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Magic Sam

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Hi all :)


@xnopasaranx : pretty much the same situation here in France unfortunately, where just the same kind of people tell just the same kind of BS about this otherwise very important and difficult issue.


@Fusion_Power : +1 to everything you said !


EDIT: just for fun, let's not forget that the EU motto is "United in diversity" and its anthem is "Ode to Joy"... What a sick joke ! 


Cheers, Magic Sam
 
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___

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Hm, complex theme. Here in germany we have (obviously) not much other themes in media right now. I personaly don't worry much about the refugees in general but I very worry about our politicans, because they still don't have a long term plan. More and more refugees arrive, there are not enough housings or whatever is needed to bring these people over the winter. And more and more arrive.


It's actualy inacceptable that most of the other countries in Europe do less to nothing to also welcome more refugees, even rich one like England or France. So it confuses me at least a little bit about your critics about germany. Yes there are a few people that may yell "let them drown" but this is not the majority. I more  worry about Countries like hungary were a intolerant straight right gouvernment seals off the entire country. And nobody punishes them for that (EU wise). And nobody complains about these intolerant east europe people where almost noboy wants refugees in their country. Even countries like France, Swizerland, Austria have a very right gouvernment now (in germany, these would be almost called"Nazis" ) but nobody outside of germany seems to care.


But as soon as in germany some weirdos complain about the millions of refugees that arrive here (and next year too of course), everyone only looks at that.  I find this not very fair.


Of course people are worried here, there are often not enough jobs or housings for german people (depending on the region). How they will manage to include Millions of refugees? I would really like to see the Master Plan of this but like sayed, german politicans don't have any. Merkels philosophy is to say and do nothing, that's what she was  elected for and it worked as long as the refugee situation was not present. Now this fails completely.
yeah read my post again. Not bitching about Germans. Just bitching about almost 28 refugee shelters being set on fire in a year and a lot of assholes publicly announcing their cold hearted crap. As I was saying hundreds of people in Dortmund alone mobilized on their own to help. You are projecting this criticism you are talking about into my post. As I am saying, I have seen a lot of horrible comments and posts from the UK and all over the place. It's just, that the nation I live in, is the first place that I can act and also give testimony of, which is Germany. The immigrants are also drowning on the european border far away from our own. It's a big relief that Germany actually let in 800.000 refugees in 2015, that's more than all of Europe has taken in since 2007!!! Just saying, that it's appalling what a broad mass of people seem to feel entitled to actually publicly announce and behave this way at all. In a sense it's also great, because at least the true racists become obvious now. Very glad noone in my vicinity actually thinks that way of refugees. If I had to work with people like that I'd get in constant arguments/fist fights.
 
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___

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Hehe yes, yes it is. "We monitor many frequencies. We listen always.Came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us.It played us a mighty dub."


EDIT: I wonder, is there an NGO or a human rights organisation run by "nerds" aiding refugees? Something like MSF (Doctors of the World, in German Ärzte ohne Grenzen)? I could imagine a lot could be helped with. I know that there is a couple of organizations helping refugees with navigation, like curating lists of safe havens, safe routes out of countries etc. Also communication must be a huge issue. We should get a bunch of telephone/comm techs on board and start an NGO! Well obviously shelter, food and medicine are first priority, but what if you wanna help and that's not your field of expertise? Governments (even if willing to help) are having a hard time keeping track of displaced people as it is, how horrible does it have to be, trying to find family that has been seperated from you without proper information channels? Refugees aren't even allowed to leave the place they have arrived at in the EU.
 
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fusion_power

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yeah read my post again. Not bitching about Germans. Just bitching about almost 600 refugee shelters being set on fire in a year and a lot of assholes publicly announcing their cold hearted crap. As I was saying hundreds of people in Dortmund alone mobilized on their own to help. You are projecting this criticism you are talking about into my post. As I am saying, I have seen a lot of horrible comments and posts from the UK and all over the place. It's just, that the nation I live in, is the first place that I can act and also give testimony of, which is Germany. The immigrants are also drowning on the european border far away from our own. It's a big relief that Germany actually let in 800.000 refugees in 2015, that's more than all of Europe has taken in since 2007!!! Just saying, that it's appalling what a broad mass of people seem to feel entitled to actually publicly announce and behave this way at all. In a sense it's also great, because at least the true racists become obvious now. Very glad noone in my vicinity actually thinks that way of refugees. If I had to work with people like that I'd get in constant arguments/fist fights.


The shelters also burn because the gouvernment fails there. They should protect every shelter building, also the empty ones, instead they leave them unprotected so some stupid people take the opportunity. I'm sure it's cheaper to hire some security than building up an entire housing after it was burned down. This is no news and it's sad that these still burn, even if could be prevented that easily.


Oh, and the number of 800K is more or less obsolete. In fact, nobody knows how many refugees are now in germany, which is a problem. It's sayed that ~40-50% are not registered at all. This was recent in the media. Authority offices are totaly overwhelmed by the mass of people. Some are registered  more than once due lack of communication or compatible IT in between the authority offices<->police, some refugees are not registered at all. It's actualy a mess and pretty embarrassing for an "High Tech" country. 


I would really wish there is one with a plan.
 

___

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Oh, and the number of 800K is more or less obsolete. In fact, nobody knows how many refugees are now in germany, which is a problem. It's sayed that ~40-50% are not registered at all. This was recent in the media. Authority offices are totaly overwhelmed by the mass of people. Some are registered  more than once due lack of communication or compatible IT in between the authority offices<->police, some refugees are not registered at all. It's actualy a mess and pretty embarrassing for an "High Tech" country. 
Oh I made a terrible mistake with the numbers. It's 580 attacks on refugees in general, only 28 actual arson attacks where they burned down housing. not 580 attacks. Going to correct that in the previous posts. Yeah, that's why I am saying: We need to help governments and NGOs because they are overwhelmed. 800.000 is just the number they publicly stated they would admit. That shelters are being burned down in numbers like that is alarming and it is in fact new. That's why I added years. Have a look here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Angriffen_auf_Fl%C3%BCchtlinge_und_Fl%C3%BCchtlingsunterk%C3%BCnfte_in_Deutschland#2015
 

Night

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I happend to hear something from a group of Germans about these refuges. They said there was this one time where some refugees came into their local supermaket, fully loaded a cart with everything and attempted to leave with it without paying. Once stopped by the supermarket security and questioned, they claimed that they refused to pay as "the government was paying for them" without presenting any evidence supporting their claim (the local police intervened shortly after).


Now this could be just a descrete case, but i wonder if anyone actually heared about something of the like ever happening recently? by how it sounded, that wasn't the first time.
 
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Ziz

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I happend to hear something from a group of Germans about these refuges. They said there was this one time where some refugees came into their local supermaket, fully loaded a cart with everything and attempted to leave with it without paying. Once stopped by the supermarket security and questioned, they claimed that they refused to pay as "the government was paying for them" without presenting any evidence supporting their claim (the local police intervened shortly after).


Now this could be just a descrete case, but i wonder if anyone actually heared about something of the like ever happening recently? by how it sounded, that wasn't the first time.
This is bullshit and proven (!) to be fashist propaganda. It may be, that some refugee steal. But not more than other people from other groups.
 

levi

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There's some weird stuff happening in the UK at the moment, with the same rise of the right-wing extremist parties as we've seen elsewhere in europe, backed by right-wing media, causing the center-right government to start saying some pretty hateful things to appease those voting for the extremists.  Meanwhile a record number of leftist people voted in a new leader for the traditionally left-wing party, proving that at least some of us aren't swayed by the narrative provided by small minded bigots.


It remains to be seen whether the number of people who aren't convinced by the anti-immigrant rhetoric can match the number of people conned into it come a general election, but I'm hopeful.  Not that that would stop the brainwashed spouting the same nasty message, I guess.


Regarding the actual refugee/immigrant situation, we need young, tax-paying immigrants in this country - not as much as Germany does, as I understand it, but we still have an ageing population and an ever increasing health and pensions bill.  Why we aren't acting more constructively to resettle these people boggles my mind.
 

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Not only is it proven to be bullshit, it's an anecdote reported by a third party (in this case Night) which does not prove a point. we can't even verify if it actually happened. anyway, if I was hungry, didn't have any money and had to stay in a prison like refugee camp, hell yes I would steal food. I do not see how this is relevant. yeah, stealing is wrong and unlawful yaddayadda. still I think if you are on the run from war, torture and prosecution, there are things that are of existential importance. like feeding your family. It doesn't matter if a bunch of people stealt food or a tv or whatever. the fact remains, that there are literally thousands of people on the brink of death that are in dire need of our help. how can anyone be such a monster to demand they pay with their lives on the off chance of some possibly stealing or misbehaving? I wanna see some fat and prosperous europeans on the run, going through years of civil war, torture and rape, losing all their money and worldly possessions, family and neighbours, then come to grips with general hatred and distrust when trying to find shelter in a foreign country.
 

Red Ring Rico

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Not only is it proven to be bullshit
I'm curious, where is the proof for either side?  I mean in terms of refuges causing commotion and taking wanton advantage of their situation.


In any case, these displaced people will need some form of living quarters.  Whether or not it's possible to accommodate so many in such a short timespan and allow for temporary integration into the country they have fled to is a concern for all involved.
 

___

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I don't have proof that this story is bullshit. what I do have is proof, that these stories do not matter. it doesn't matter for the situation of refugees, it's anecdotal and therefore not admissible as proof by itself. It's like you want to sue an entire population for stealing by saying "well, a guy once told me that he saw a person belonging to this ethnical group of people take something without paying". I don't think there is anything to prove here for the doubting party. it's the party telling that story that needs to prove it to us. and even if true, it's not reason for anyone to think that the entire population of people is stealing.


or as another example: I could tell a story on how I met a really really nice fella from Syria. He wouldn't steal anything, barely accepting my food out of humility. that must mean all syrians are exactly like that right? it's bullshit. this is not how you do political debate, it's how children defame each other in schools! well, it's defamation at best, might even become false accusation and a serious criminal offense.


there is numerous blogs and newspaper articles on how the right wing constructs propaganda stories like that to spread on facebook and other online media outlets. sadly I can't find it in english but will try to keep looking. another example of this is, that they are claiming that children have been raped by syrian refugees in refugee shelters, weirdly enough there has been no news coverage of this at all, but contrary to that journalists disbarring the propaganda, saying these parents and children have been made up to cause hatred and hysteria.
 

Neelix

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I don't think there is anything to prove here for the doubting party. it's the party telling that story that needs to prove it to us. and even if true, it's not reason for anyone to think that the entire population of people is stealing.


If you're going to call something "proven bullshit" then the burden of proof is on you.


As it stands I have no reason to disbelieve the story.  I also have no reason to think that it's representative of all refugees, but that doesn't mean the story itself  is untrue.


-Neelix
 

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I didn't call it that in the first place, I built upon the statement of another poster who said "it's proven to be bullshit". I added to that, that it is irrelevant information regardless of being true or false. I do not have proof that this particular story is fales, I do have proof of a mass of propaganda like this, that has been debunked by journalists. There is even a facebook group where they collect stupid facebook propaganda and hate posts, and are debunking them. I can provide a link if you wish, you will find stories exactly like that in there, but you will probably need to use google translate, if you do not understand German.


this is an NGO dedicated to teaching skepticism to school kids, and debunking propaganda and online bigotry


https://www.facebook.com/stoppthasspropaganda/


http://www.lehrer-online.de/stoppt-hass-propaganda.php


this is an article regarding sources and stories on the internet, being used as propaganda, and how they are being debunked:


http://www.vice.com/alps/read/kot-am-busfenster-331


this is actually right on topic and explains how these racists are spreading rumours as "facts" to defame refugees as criminals.


http://www.mdr.de/exakt/facebookhetze106.html


So yes, I'd say scientifical proof is something else, but I am pretty sure these stories are no more than stories! And if they are told by someone who wasn't even there, I am inclined to not believe them at all. I'd like to know from Night, where exactly he overheard Germans talking about this, and how exactly he was able to understand them.


I think I am going to stop talking now, apparently my rhetorical skills in English are rather shitty. I don't care about proof for a particular story, for fucks sake there is thousands of people drowning, starving and being killed in war. what the hell do I care about an isolated incident of someone stealing from a supermarket? It's such a feeble attempt to spread racist opinions and hatred, it's absurd anybody would believe these stories.
 

Not_a_Nick

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My 2 cents on this with an example: a syrian couple recently arrived at my country and as soon as they arrived they got a house provided by an association of social service and a job from an undisclosed multinational company. In the meanwhile, for several years, my country has been severely stroke by unemployment, usually if you send a CV you don't get an answer or even a simple opportunity of a job interview. There are hundreds of thousands of long term duration unemployed people, and many making lines to receive food from trucks, the first time i saw that i cried.


I love my country and i understand that they're refugees from an awful war and should get provisory help until they can get returned to their countries, but i also understand the revolt of people against this kind of situation, because they also see a potential permanent situation incoming. Now make what you want of this, but i can't condemn either side.
 

_jr_

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According to our friends in Poland, Germany is also to blame for Paris.
 

Night

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  • Not only is it proven to be bullshit, it's an anecdote reported by a third party (in this case Night) which does not prove a point...
  • I don't have proof that this story is bullshit. what I do have is proof, that these stories do not matter.
  • It's like you want to sue an entire population for stealing


Firstly, I wasn't branding any population as guilty or anything, all i did was just re-tell a story i heard from actual Germans (IRL) not too long ago and just wanted to see if there was any information, about similar situations in the EU, that anyone around here might be willing to share. Now as for your "proof" that stories like these don't matter.. well they might not, but don't you think that if they held some kind of truth behind them and that there was a sugnificat amount of those stories floating around it might be an indication for the situation at hand? I mean afterall, if there's smoke there's probably a fire somewhere.


For example, if there was a sugnificant amount of the likes of the story i told floating around, it just might indicate that the refugee situation in that area is mismanged and not under a sugnificant level of control. Afterall, a country that has a good plan and the right resources to take refugess in would probably be able to contain any trouble that might be around (take Jordan for example)


On the other hand though, similar stories, might be indeed right-wing bulls*it being spread around by various facist organizations, and in that case might be indicating that (ultra)nationalism or some other derivating ideology might be on the rise for one reason or another (like in Ukraine, for example)


As for what i actually think though, If there was anything yesterday's attack in Paris brought to mind was yet another raised Red Flag.


If the EU has a bad plan when it comes to properly absorbing the refugees and doesn't actually fully realise what they're dealing with, yesterday's terror attack is going to be just the beginning of something far worse.
 
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