The case of the case.

[cuetzpalin]

What do you mean by rounded?

 

[Exophase]

OK, I shouldn't have said "why don't you just get a netbook" because indeed there are other advantages of the Pandora/Pyra -- it is unique in many ways simultaneously, so even if you take away one of its killer features, it's still unique. But pocketability is still an important feature to me, roughly as important as battery life and having a keyboard.

Adding a full 10mm of width just to marginally improve the positioning of the 9th and 10th gaming button (while making the reachability of the middle keys obviously worse) is a very bad trade-off to me. And I think it's a bad defense of that poor trade-off to say "it's not pocketable anyway, so I don't care about that". Evidently lots of people do consider the Pandora to be pocketable, but it's also clearly on the border since there are also several people who don't consider it to be pocketable. Every millimeter you add, will tip that balance towards the non-pocketable side.

Oh, I don't think it should be made larger either. I agree with you, if it's just barely pocketable for some people that's all the more reason to not make it larger.

On a sort of related note, I don't really understand where all this love for the Sega 6-button layout is coming from, especially if it's much smaller than it was on those controllers. It's not even really that much of a Sega layout anyway. Genesis only had it with an optional controller that only a few dozen games used and very few were really designed around. The only Sega console it was really standard on was Saturn, which really raises the question, are people that confident about Saturn emulation on Pyra?

But ED's solution probably doesn't really hurt anything, so may as well have it. So long as those buttons aren't getting accidentally pressed.

 

[TrashyMG]

@exophase: n64 emulation could benefit from a proper 6 button layout to give the standard A and B buttons on top of a proper C button layout.. Unlike the Pandora, the Pyra won't have numeral keys above the face buttons to make up for the lack of enough face buttons. However I can deal with ED's layout, even though it's less than ideal for a N64 like layout.

 

[Natsu]

I don't think making it a tiny bit wider would change much.
 

What do you mean by rounded?

Pretty much the case design of the 3DS XL.

 

[Exophase]

@exophase: n64 emulation could benefit from a proper 6 button layout to give the standard A and B buttons on top of a proper C button layout.. Unlike the Pandora, the Pyra won't have numeral keys above the face buttons to make up for the lack of enough face buttons. However I can deal with ED's layout, even though it's less than ideal for a N64 like layout.

On the other hand, Pyra does have dual-shoulders, that can help make up for those buttons..

The thing with N64 is that most games either use the C buttons for camera (which is good to map to the right nub) or for more secondary functions, so it's not as critical where they're mapped. Super Smash Bros, the only especially popular fighting game on the system (if you can call it that..) really underutilized those buttons.

 

[TrashyMG]

Pyra will have dual shoulder buttons though, right?

Actually four shoulder buttons, so there will be enough buttons.. just still not ideal layout especially for games that use the C-buttons as directional controls.

 

[Tenka]

Curious, for N64 emulation, what are other people going to use for A and B, or for the other two C buttons which aren't part of the shape?  Since ED's new buttons are separated by A in the middle they can't be pressed at once, so for most N64 games they'd be better suited to A and B than two of the C buttons, so I guess it's lucky they're on the left side.  Them being the primary use buttons as such will be very bothersome though, since they're smaller and placed so that you need to move your thumb and dodge the middle button every time you press one rather than feeling them both at once.  I'm not just saying "This isn't perfect when it could be perfect," but I wonder what the idea is at all besides "At least they aren't in the way."

Edit: I almost said this, really, but the Nintendo 64 already has two shoulders and a trigger, so three shoulders in the Pyra's use case.  And because our hands are symmetrical rather than one being in the middle, it would be pretty nice for both L2 and R2 to apply to the Z button in order to account for holding the controller both ways or preference.

 

[TrashyMG]

Well I suppose the C-buttons could be mapped to one of the nubs like it was in the first version of mupen.

 

[Yoyobuae]

B     ↑

   A     →

←    ↓

or:

←    ↑

   B     →

↓     A

or:

↑       B   

    ←     A

↓       →

or even:

                        ↑          B   

(nub press)←      →         A

                        ↓       unused

 

[EvilDragon]

We're no hobbyists tinkering with some design in the spare time.

No, but we are. Community Power 'n stuff.
And if you have good professional designers, then they usualy have good results in short time, it's their job. Time is money, they know that. I just have the feeling you want to stay with that exact bricky Pandora design without changng much, which would be the wrong way imho. It's ok for a first start but no way I want a Pyra that will look exaclty like that current prototype case. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

And once the designers change it, there will be more people with more ideas...


You can't simply change the layout, you also need to change the main PCB layout accordingly, etc.


It's not plain simple to increase something like that.


If you think it's simple, why don't you create one yourself?


You're welcome to do that, and it will be really simple as we release the schematics and case files when we're done, so you should be able to do these simple changes for yourself, shouldn't you?


One thing I always loved about the Pandora is the size.


One thing I hate about the 3ds XL, the PSP and Vita is that they're so huge they don't fit into my trousers pockets (the Pandora does).


You rather want to have an icontrolpad2 scenario, where changes create so many delays and additional costs that we run out of money before it's released?


I am sure my investors would be really happy about that as well.


Sorry for being so harsh, but it really sounds like you have the opinion this is some really simple task that can be done in a few weeks and doesn't cost anything.

 

[Foxgod]

I am with the way the pyra case is designed right now, so plz dont change the buttons

If they are crammed in genesis layout, i would constantly accidentally hit the wrong buttons during fast action games, because of sliding over the buttons.

 

[deadofmind]

EvilDragon, I know this is completely irrelevant (similar to all this bickering about moving buttons and such) but I have a few questions.

1. What if you took your current design (2 buttons on left side) and rotated them both to the bottom (one bottom right, one bottom left)? This would keep a cross shape, but also be similar to a sega 6 button layout except that it would be staggered. The cross shape would be gone (mostly, it would just be tilted to the left).

2. How hard would it be to make all the buttons the same small size, and if they were the same smaller than now size would there be enough space for the regular sega 6 button layout?

I'm not myself actually wanting these changes, I'm just wondering. I am perfectly happy about your layout. Though it may be a little hard to get used to, It is 6 buttons, so I can't wait to play some N64 :3

 

[fusion_power]

And once the designers change it, there will be more people with more ideas...


You can't simply change the layout, you also need to change the main PCB layout accordingly, etc.


It's not plain simple to increase something like that.


If you think it's simple, why don't you create one yourself?


You're welcome to do that, and it will be really simple as we release the schematics and case files when we're done, so you should be able to do these simple changes for yourself, shouldn't you?


One thing I always loved about the Pandora is the size.


One thing I hate about the 3ds XL, the PSP and Vita is that they're so huge they don't fit into my trousers pockets (the Pandora does).


You rather want to have an icontrolpad2 scenario, where changes create so many delays and additional costs that we run out of money before it's released?


I am sure my investors would be really happy about that as well.


Sorry for being so harsh, but it really sounds like you have the opinion this is some really simple task that can be done in a few weeks and doesn't cost anything.

:blink:  Uhm, Sorry but I never used the word "simple" in combination with the case design, I KNOW how tricky that part is. Sorry if that sounded somehow complaining. Nobody sayed you have to change the PCB for an different case because you already sayed it's design is almost finished. It shockes me a little bit that you may feel offended by me while all these counless discussions about different action button layouts (and cameras  :rolleyes:  ) that NEED an new PCB design if changed, may not bother you at all. And I also only did suggestions and only about the PROTOTYPE case which is nothing finished at all, still in the design progress and may change so or so until the final desin is choosen.

The Pandora does not fit well in my pockety by the way, to bulky imho, missing the rounded edges from the Lid at the underside of the case for example. This could easily change by some minor design adjustments for the Pyra (ignore my rendering pic, it was just an example).

There is not even an main SoC daugher board yet or an keymat (that will take alot more time I'm sure) so I guess discussing about the improvements of the case at this early time is not that wrong. If I would have an 3D printer, I would test one case-design after another until I find one perfect one, sadly I don't have an 3D printer (yet).  I actualy made some Paper models of the Pandora before it came out mayn years ago to know how it would feel in my hands. 

Again, it's the designers job to do that fast, efficient and professional. I know this costs money but you can't make such an product without many prototypes and changes. I remember the funny OUYA controller that went through a long designing phase and at the end it still sucked because nobody actualy was a gamer there, so it looked for me at least. I spotted the flaws during the early pics of it (who designed that removable shell with the faulty areas around the action buttons never should design an controller again).

I know I may be somehow pedantic, comes along when you have some autism tendencies and focus on compared tiny and small "unimportant" stuff. That's because I react pretty sensitive for stuff like uneven designs, rough edges, unpolished spots etc. It's an automatism, I don't even need to concentrate to get this "skill". Not always funny when every misaligned Picture at the wall can drive you crazy... h34r:

Again, sorry if I was offending, I actualy want the same thing like you and everyone here: the perfect Handheld Device. 

 

[Exophase]

Actually four shoulder buttons, so there will be enough buttons.. just still not ideal layout especially for games that use the C-buttons as directional controls.

Yeah, I actually meant dual per side when I said that.

 

[Natsu]

You would have to "slide over" the buttons regardless. Should we have less keyboard keys because of "accidental presses"?

(Only saying this to make a point. There no reason to mess with the keys. )

(and cameras  :rolleyes:   )

What is that meant to mean? That sounds like fighting words.

 

[Saber]

Curious, for N64 emulation, what are other people going to use for A and B, or for the other two C buttons which aren't part of the shape?  Since ED's new buttons are separated by A in the middle they can't be pressed at once, so for most N64 games they'd be better suited to A and B than two of the C buttons, so I guess it's lucky they're on the left side.  Them being the primary use buttons as such will be very bothersome though, since they're smaller and placed so that you need to move your thumb and dodge the middle button every time you press one rather than feeling them both at once.  I'm not just saying "This isn't perfect when it could be perfect," but I wonder what the idea is at all besides "At least they aren't in the way."

Edit: I almost said this, really, but the Nintendo 64 already has two shoulders and a trigger, so three shoulders in the Pyra's use case.  And because our hands are symmetrical rather than one being in the middle, it would be pretty nice for both L2 and R2 to apply to the Z button in order to account for holding the controller both ways or preference.

For playing Ocarina on the Pyra I'll probably do a variant of the N64's controls like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=P7R0OxiQelc#t=297

 

[Tenka]

Well I suppose the C-buttons could be mapped to one of the nubs like it was in the first version of mupen.

That mapping makes the least possible of all of them, only one nub direction can be pressed at once.  Lots of the games I've played have involved pressing more than one button at once.  Not mentioning moving the nub feeling ickily different from pressing and holding down a button because for all I know everyone else in the world thinks otherwise.

For playing Ocarina on the Pyra I'll probably do a variant of the N64's controls like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=P7R0OxiQelc#t=297

R mapped to the bottom right shoulder button?  I could teach myself to think of the top right shoulder button as C-Up, but it'd be one button short, and the L and R buttons not being symmetrical sounds weird.  Then again how often did we ever use L?

 

[EvilDragon]

:blink:  Uhm, Sorry but I never used the word "simple" in combination with the case design, I KNOW how tricky that part is. Sorry if that sounded somehow complaining. Nobody sayed you have to change the PCB for an different case because you already sayed it's design is almost finished.

Umm... you did notice that the current discussion was to add a few mm to the width of the case to easily add more buttons...?

If you change the width of the case, you need to change the PCB as well.

It shockes me a little bit that you may feel offended by me while all these counless discussions about different action button layouts (and cameras  :rolleyes:  ) that NEED an new PCB design if changed, may not bother you at all.

I am not offended

And I said it won't have a camera, so I don't even follow the thread...

And this IS basically the thread of different action button layouts here, isn't it?

The Pandora does not fit well in my pockety by the way, to bulky imho, missing the rounded edges from the Lid at the underside of the case for example. This could easily change by some minor design adjustments for the Pyra (ignore my rendering pic, it was just an example).

I already wrote multiple times in multiple threads that the case will be rounded a bit.

It will be made as rounded as possible without running into issues...

Increasing the size to round the edges is no solution though, so we're a bit limited here.

There is not even an main SoC daugher board yet or an keymat (that will take alot more time I'm sure) so I guess discussing about the improvements of the case at this early time is not that wrong.

Early...?

Besides some minor tweaks and adding some stuff like the shoulder buttons and the logo, the case is finished as well.

It's basically the same status as the main PCB...

If I would have an 3D printer, I would test one case-design after another until I find one perfect one, sadly I don't have an 3D printer (yet).

Well, most 3D printers are not accurate enough for testing, which is why I have it printed by a company.

Each full case set is 150 EUR and takes two weeks.

Changing the designs also takes a while. Not because the designers couldn't do it fast, but you need to explain them what to change (which might be a few questions back and forth) and they also have other customers, so it might be they can't work on it before a few days are over.

Each change needs to get a mold flow analysis, etc.

All in all, this can quickly add up to two weeks as well.

So just one more test adds 1 month to our timeframe - which is undesirable.

I know this costs money but you can't make such an product without many prototypes and changes. I remember the funny OUYA controller that went through a long designing phase and at the end it still sucked because nobody actualy was a gamer there, so it looked for me at least.

And money is something we don't have, which is exactly why we chose to keep the good things and improve what can be improved.

So there will be no major redesign of the case and no experiments.

The gaming controls of the Pandora are perfect, and that's what we'll almost keep 1:1.

That's also why I'm pretty careful about changing the action button layout and did add two small buttons at a place where they don't get in the way, without changing the main buttons.

 

[TrashyMG]

That mapping makes the least possible of all of them, only one nub direction can be pressed at once.  Lots of the games I've played have involved pressing more than one button at once.  Not mentioning moving the nub feeling ickily different from pressing and holding down a button because for all I know everyone else in the world thinks otherwise.

I don't recall any n64 game that required any of the c-buttons being hit at the same time.

 

[fusion_power]

Umm... you did notice that the current discussion was to add a few mm to the width of the case to easily add more buttons...?

If you change the width of the case, you need to change the PCB as well.

I'm 99% sure you will just keep your first button layout for already mentioned reasons, which is fine imho. I even could live with the classic 4 buttons. So this part needs no change at all imho.

Well, most 3D printers are not accurate enough for testing, which is why I have it printed by a company.

Each full case set is 150 EUR and takes two weeks.

From my amateur point of view I would just say: price may be OK but takes way to long for such an print, but I'm not an 3D print expert. ^^" At least the case seems to have a quiet good quality for an 3D print. Looks like stereo lithography.

The gaming controls of the Pandora are perfect, and that's what we'll almost keep 1:1.

I agree, nothing to complain there but I suggest to not glue the D-pad onto the keymat this time.