The case of the case.

[levi]

I agree, nothing to complain there but I suggest to not glue the D-pad onto the keymat this time.

 
Hmm.. isn't this the very reason why Pandora Dpad is the best around?

It's more like shape, fitting, resistance of the rubber mat etc. No need to glue it on imho. If you glue it onto the rubber mat it raises one side ofthe rubber up if you pus the other side down. And it makes it hard to replace the mat or D-pad. I imagine this will be more easy onto the Pyra. If the fitting is good, no need to glue the D-Pad on and yo ustill have a excellent Pad.

The fact it opposite side rises up gives it a little more travel than if the opposite side was fixed.  The standard way to hold in circular d-pads is with lugs on the edges which conflict with the case and stop it popping out.

If the Pyra does use lugs, I hope the d-pad is loose enough that they allow the opposite edge of the d-pad to rise and allow the d-pad to pivot in a similar way to which it does on Pandora.  Another idea is to put the lugs on the diagonal so that up, down left and right allow the opposite edge rise a little over the line of the lugs, though obviously that would disadvantage diagonals somewhat.

Perhaps I'm overthinking this - perhaps the travel of the Pandora d-pad isn't that important (after all I like the DS Phat d-pad which has far less travel), but I hope care is being taken to not compromise the d-pad.

 

[Yoyobuae]

And still I don't see many community members supporting it, except a couple.

You've seen much more than a couple of community members in this topic alone.

-God Ginrai

I'd like to say that despite making some suggestions on this thread, I wasn't entirely convinced by any of the button layouts mockups (not even mine).

The mockups either packed the buttons together too much (and I don't care much for your GP2X argument, since those buttons are much larger in size, larger than Pandora's even), or resorted to using small buttons (which I did to try to solve the former issue), and still meant packing together the small buttons a bit too much.

Now I believe that ED's way is the only viable way to keep the old buttons with the same size and spacing as Pandora (which is a very good layout) and add two new buttons without causing other issues like the nub spacing or spacing between buttons or getting in the way of old buttons.

I'm not trying to re-start the argument, I'm just saying what I think here.

 

[fusion_power]

The fact it opposite side rises up gives it a little more travel than if the opposite side was fixed.  The standard way to hold in circular d-pads is with lugs on the edges which conflict with the case and stop it popping out.

If the Pyra does use lugs, I hope the d-pad is loose enough that they allow the opposite edge of the d-pad to rise and allow the d-pad to pivot in a similar way to which it does on Pandora.  Another idea is to put the lugs on the diagonal so that up, down left and right allow the opposite edge rise a little over the line of the lugs, though obviously that would disadvantage diagonals somewhat.

Perhaps I'm overthinking this - perhaps the travel of the Pandora d-pad isn't that important (after all I like the DS Phat d-pad which has far less travel), but I hope care is being taken to not compromise the d-pad.

I find it interesting, that even a "loose" D-Pad with compared some travel/wobble and larger tolerances can be good. I think onto the MegaDrive Controller, still a good D-Pad that was not that thight fit into the Controller. Same for the Original Gameboy D-Pad, also a good one with some free travel.I find it a little bit harder to do 360° turns with the Pandoda D-Pad caused by it's stiff glued-onto-the-rubber-mat -design. So I prefer a non glued D-Pad to have a little bit more tolerance for such moves. Of course there also can be good and thight fitting D-Pads that don't "wobble" at all, the one from the GBA Advance SP is a good example, almost no travel, flat, "clicky" but surprisingly good. Much better than the one from the classic GBA imho.

 

[levi]

Ah, I never had a GBA SP.  The GBA classic d-pad is very similar to the one in the Gamecube controller i.e. pretty rubbish.  I wonder if the GBA SP one is the same part as in the original DS - IIRC the DS phat came out immediately after the SP (then the GBA micro came out).

 

[Saber]

I always followed Pandora discussions and improvement ideas.


I never saw a single thread about six buttons, but multiple requests for four shoulder buttons.


And still I don't see many community members supporting it, except a couple.


The Pyra was revealed February 1st. When did the 6-button layout discussion start?

ED, would it be possible to move Pyra's Select to the same row as Start to make it less challenging to reach the two center gaming buttons? Select was a little harder to press on the Pandora after all. 

Not trying to be a nag to your work here. I know I should of brought it up much earlier but I didn't think of it again until recently.

 

[EvilDragon]

The problem with the Start / Select buttons is, that the nubs need more space below the case than you can see and the keymat also needs some minimum width around the buttons. I've not checked it, but I'm afraid the space would not be enough to put both beside each other.

 

[Saber]

The problem with the Start / Select buttons is, that the nubs need more space below the case than you can see and the keymat also needs some minimum width around the buttons. I've not checked it, but I'm afraid the space would not be enough to put both beside each other.

Oh, I see. It's fine then.

The board pic had made it look like there's enough space. Thank you though.

 

[Askarus]

I always followed Pandora discussions and improvement ideas.


I never saw a single thread about six buttons, but multiple requests for four shoulder buttons.


And still I don't see many community members supporting it, except a couple.


The Pyra was revealed February 1st. When did the 6-button layout discussion start?

ED, would it be possible to move Pyra's Select to the same row as Start to make it less challenging to reach the two center gaming buttons? Select was a little harder to press on the Pandora after all. 

Not trying to be a nag to your work here. I know I should of brought it up much earlier but I didn't think of it again until recently.

I wouldn't want that.

At least as long as ALT is not on a shoulder button as well.

If I want to do a shortcut with ALT (I do it a lot) then it's hard to reach if it's not symmetrical.

For me it's fine the way it is now.

 

[Saber]

I always followed Pandora discussions and improvement ideas.


I never saw a single thread about six buttons, but multiple requests for four shoulder buttons.


And still I don't see many community members supporting it, except a couple.


The Pyra was revealed February 1st. When did the 6-button layout discussion start?

ED, would it be possible to move Pyra's Select to the same row as Start to make it less challenging to reach the two center gaming buttons? Select was a little harder to press on the Pandora after all. 

Not trying to be a nag to your work here. I know I should of brought it up much earlier but I didn't think of it again until recently.

I wouldn't want that.

At least as long as ALT is not on a shoulder button as well.

If I want to do a shortcut with ALT (I do it a lot) then it's hard to reach if it's not symmetrical.

For me it's fine the way it is now.

If it had been possible, wouldn't Alt(Start) be in a better position for the right thumb if you were to use the left thumb for the letter key you'd press to perform the shortcut(Alt + Tab, Alt + E, etc.)? Most of the Alt combos use the letters on the left side of the keyboard if I'm not mistaken anyways.

This all of course ignores L1 as Right Control and L2 as Right Alt which are the user's first choice for hotkeying. For Gaming, to have Select and Start oriented as they commonly are would've been favorable.

 

[Askarus]

I always followed Pandora discussions and improvement ideas.


I never saw a single thread about six buttons, but multiple requests for four shoulder buttons.


And still I don't see many community members supporting it, except a couple.


The Pyra was revealed February 1st. When did the 6-button layout discussion start?

ED, would it be possible to move Pyra's Select to the same row as Start to make it less challenging to reach the two center gaming buttons? Select was a little harder to press on the Pandora after all. 

Not trying to be a nag to your work here. I know I should of brought it up much earlier but I didn't think of it again until recently.

I wouldn't want that.

At least as long as ALT is not on a shoulder button as well.

If I want to do a shortcut with ALT (I do it a lot) then it's hard to reach if it's not symmetrical.

For me it's fine the way it is now.

If it had been possible, wouldn't Alt(Start) be in a better position for the right thumb if you were to use the left thumb for the letter key you'd press to perform the shortcut(Alt + Tab, Alt + E, etc.)? Most of the Alt combos use the letters on the left side of the keyboard if I'm not mistaken anyways.

This all of course ignores L1 as Right Control and L2 as Right Alt which are the user's first choice for hotkeying. For Gaming, to have Select and Start oriented as they commonly are would've been favorable.

No.

If you navigate through menus (LibreOffice) then you need every letter

 

[Saber]

I always followed Pandora discussions and improvement ideas.


I never saw a single thread about six buttons, but multiple requests for four shoulder buttons.


And still I don't see many community members supporting it, except a couple.


The Pyra was revealed February 1st. When did the 6-button layout discussion start?

ED, would it be possible to move Pyra's Select to the same row as Start to make it less challenging to reach the two center gaming buttons? Select was a little harder to press on the Pandora after all. 

Not trying to be a nag to your work here. I know I should of brought it up much earlier but I didn't think of it again until recently.

I wouldn't want that.

At least as long as ALT is not on a shoulder button as well.

If I want to do a shortcut with ALT (I do it a lot) then it's hard to reach if it's not symmetrical.

For me it's fine the way it is now.

If it had been possible, wouldn't Alt(Start) be in a better position for the right thumb if you were to use the left thumb for the letter key you'd press to perform the shortcut(Alt + Tab, Alt + E, etc.)? Most of the Alt combos use the letters on the left side of the keyboard if I'm not mistaken anyways.

This all of course ignores L1 as Right Control and L2 as Right Alt which are the user's first choice for hotkeying. For Gaming, to have Select and Start oriented as they commonly are would've been favorable.

No.

If you navigate through menus (LibreOffice) then you need every letter

Alright. Let's say you use the Pyra on a tabletop, like a laptop. If Select is beside Start, it wouldn't make a difference on which key combo letter you'd need with Alt or Control because you'd use whatever thumb is closest to what you'd need. Every letter key would be accessible, correct? So in this case it wouldn't matter how the middle keys are situated.

Now, if Select is next to Start, why would anyone stretch there thumbs to the center of the device for every single key when they can use the shoulders with the keys they can't press in the desired combo? If I was standing and I felt the incredible overwhelming urge to press Alt + L, why wouldn't I press L2 and L? If I had set the Pyra on a table, I could also easily press Start + L.

The only real downside to all this is the learning how to use the L2 shoulder button part, but it doesn't matter now anyways.

 

[Askarus]

Alright. Let's say you use the Pyra on a tabletop, like a laptop. If Select is beside Start, it wouldn't make a difference on which key combo letter you'd need with Alt or Control because you'd use whatever thumb is closest to what you'd need. Every letter key would be accessible, correct? So in this case it wouldn't matter how the middle keys are situated. Now, if Select is next to Start, why would anyone stretch there thumbs to the center of the device for every single key when they can use the shoulders with the keys they can't press in the desired combo? If I was standing and I felt the incredible overwhelming urge to press Alt + L, why wouldn't I press L2 and L? If I had set the Pyra on a table, I could also easily press Start + L. The only real downside to all this is the learning how to use the L2 shoulder button part, but it doesn't matter now anyways.

As I said, as long as we ALT is on the shoulder button it's fine.

 

[Saber]

Alright. Let's say you use the Pyra on a tabletop, like a laptop. If Select is beside Start, it wouldn't make a difference on which key combo letter you'd need with Alt or Control because you'd use whatever thumb is closest to what you'd need. Every letter key would be accessible, correct? So in this case it wouldn't matter how the middle keys are situated. Now, if Select is next to Start, why would anyone stretch there thumbs to the center of the device for every single key when they can use the shoulders with the keys they can't press in the desired combo? If I was standing and I felt the incredible overwhelming urge to press Alt + L, why wouldn't I press L2 and L? If I had set the Pyra on a table, I could also easily press Start + L. The only real downside to all this is the learning how to use the L2 shoulder button part, but it doesn't matter now anyways.

As I said, as long as we ALT is on the shoulder button it's fine.

It better be.

 

[Neelix]

As I said, as long as we ALT is on the shoulder button it's fine.

*blinks* *goes back to reread your original post on the subject*

Ahh... I misread that at the time, and even on the reread it took me a moment before I could parse that sentence in the way you intended. I thought you were saying you didn't want Alt on the shoulder buttons, and I couldn't really understand why you were so apparently opposed to it.

- Neelix

 

[deadofmind]

EvilDragon, I know this is completely irrelevant (similar to all this bickering about moving buttons and such) but I have a few questions.

1. What if you took your current design (2 buttons on left side) and rotated them both to the bottom (one bottom right, one bottom left)? This would keep a cross shape, but also be similar to a sega 6 button layout except that it would be staggered. The cross shape would be gone (mostly, it would just be tilted to the left).

2. How hard would it be to make all the buttons the same small size, and if they were the same smaller than now size would there be enough space for the regular sega 6 button layout?

I'm not myself actually wanting these changes, I'm just wondering. I am perfectly happy about your layout. Though it may be a little hard to get used to, It is 6 buttons, so I can't wait to play some N64 :3

Would still really appreciate an answer to these..

<_­<;

 

[Foxgod]

EvilDragon, I know this is completely irrelevant (similar to all this bickering about moving buttons and such) but I have a few questions.

1. What if you took your current design (2 buttons on left side) and rotated them both to the bottom (one bottom right, one bottom left)? This would keep a cross shape, but also be similar to a sega 6 button layout except that it would be staggered. The cross shape would be gone (mostly, it would just be tilted to the left).

2. How hard would it be to make all the buttons the same small size, and if they were the same smaller than now size would there be enough space for the regular sega 6 button layout?

I'm not myself actually wanting these changes, I'm just wondering. I am perfectly happy about your layout. Though it may be a little hard to get used to, It is 6 buttons, so I can't wait to play some N64 :3

Would still really appreciate an answer to these..

<_< ;

He pretty much already answered those by stating that in order to make changes to button layout, and thus change the case, he would have to redesign the pcb as well.

It would cost a lot  time as well as money that he doesnt have.

Personally i prefer the way the buttons are right now.

And i and many others would find it a serious bummer if changing it would lead to a big delay.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Would still really appreciate an answer to these..


<_­<;

I can't understand what you mean by this:

1. What if you took your current design (2 buttons on left side) and rotated them both to the bottom (one bottom right, one bottom left)? This would keep a cross shape, but also be similar to a sega 6 button layout except that it would be staggered. The cross shape would be gone (mostly, it would just be tilted to the left).

So you first say to rotate the layout so that the new buttons are at the button, do you mean something like this?:


   Y


A    B

   X

Z    C

I don't see how is this similar to sega 6 button layout at all. Also would run into spacing issues with keyboard buttons.

You first say "This would keep a cross shape" but later you say "The cross shape would be gone". So does it stays or goes?

It's all phrased in a very ambiguous/confusing way.

 

[deadofmind]

lol, I meant wouldn't. And yeah, a little confusing, I was sleepy ^_^ I think I got confused and thought the y x b and c would be the cross shape.

This is an important lesson, don't post when sleepy x­D

Oh well, in to the trash those ideas go!

What is the current size of the buttons? Does anyone know?

 

[Askarus]

As I said, as long as we ALT is on the shoulder button it's fine.

*blinks* *goes back to reread your original post on the subject*


Ahh... I misread that at the time, and even on the reread it took me a moment before I could parse that sentence in the way you intended. I thought you were saying you didn't want Alt on the shoulder buttons, and I couldn't really understand why you were so apparently opposed to it.


- Neelix

My problem with Alt and AltGr on the shoulder buttons is that not every game does recognize them as buttons by default.

For example I can't use the "Start" button in Jedi Knight (Don't know if I remember right).

At least "Super Smash Flash2" (Flash Game) for sure does not allow the "Start" button to be used. I have to use some number Key.

For typing it's fore sure far superior to have every Modifier on the shoulder buttons.

And as long as the Modifier buttons can be changed to any other button press so that a Game does recognize them it will work well.

That was the only thing I was concerned about at first.

 

[_wb_]

As I said, as long as we ALT is on the shoulder button it's fine.

*blinks* *goes back to reread your original post on the subject*


Ahh... I misread that at the time, and even on the reread it took me a moment before I could parse that sentence in the way you intended. I thought you were saying you didn't want Alt on the shoulder buttons, and I couldn't really understand why you were so apparently opposed to it.


- Neelix

My problem with Alt and AltGr on the shoulder buttons is that not every game does recognize them as buttons by default.

For example I can't use the "Start" button in Jedi Knight (Don't know if I remember right).

At least "Super Smash Flash2" (Flash Game) for sure does not allow the "Start" button to be used. I have to use some number Key.

For typing it's fore sure far superior to have every Modifier on the shoulder buttons.

And as long as the Modifier buttons can be changed to any other button press so that a Game does recognize them it will work well.

That was the only thing I was concerned about at first.

This sort of problem can be solved by making a better port of the game -- either by changing its keybindings, or by using some script that temporarily remaps the shoulder buttons. As long as all keys are implemented in software (not like Pandora's Fn key), there is not really problem.