The case of the case.

[Askarus]

I think the layout from ED is the best one.

If you want to play a fighting game you can map the buttons to the shoulder buttons and do any combination you like.

 

[God Ginrai]

Button size does play a role in how easily you'll accidentally hit buttons, not just spacing. I think this really has to be tested by a variety of people to see how well it works, but making actual keymats has got to be expensive :/

Of course. But as far as I'm aware, smaller buttons actually makes it less likely to accidentally hit other buttons. Because the buttons are smaller, there is less area to accidentally hit.

EDIT: Askarus. Please stop insinuating that we want this only for fighting games. The only fighting games I even play regularly are Super Smash Bros and Power Stone. There is a large number of 6 button games that are not fighting games, that we wish to play with a real 6-button layout.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

• Buttons are a bit more packed together (even compared to my last layout)

The buttons are closer together than the edges of the larger buttons, yes, however, the actual distance between the button-facing edges is greater than in my previous layout. This allows more room between the buttons, which will lead to more accurate presses.

The large buttons on your previous layout were unacceptably close, as I mentioned earlier.

• The rightmost button (ie. C button) was moved up and to the right, but there's stuff already there in the PCB:
  
  
  
  
  And it was also moved closer to the edge of the PCB and therefore the edge of the keymat. So that might cause problems.
  

Actually, that button has not moved at all. The right edge of it is in line with the right edge of the C button in my original layout. I used layers in Gimp to confirm this. Or if it did move at all, it moved to the left when I was tweaking the positioning of the extra buttons. I can confirm when I'm at home tonight. (I'll check the upward direction as well, but I'm pretty sure it's the same)

Anyway, I'm just going to drop off this discussion. No matter what arguments I give they'll just get brushed off / ignored.

 

[LoopStar]

Basically I'd like to have the Saturn/Arcade layout for the action buttons because it feels a lot more natural/ergonomical to me. It's not like I'm playing arcade fighting games 24/7. Mostly I'm using the action buttons with the desktop (as mapped in the original pandora layout). Having the 5th/6th button in a sega-style layout would allow for using them as mouse buttons in a way that's easy to reach.

 

[God Ginrai]

The large buttons on your previous layout were unacceptably close, as I mentioned earlier.

 And I told you that they were the same distance as the GP2X buttons were from each other, hence they were not "unacceptably close".

 I didn't say compared to EvilDragon's layout. See the bolded word:

The right edge of it is in line with the right edge of the C button in my original layout.

And even if we compare it to EvilDragon's layout, your gif makes it quite obvious that the right edges of the button holes are at the same place, and that it merely moved upwards. And it moved upwards a distance that is smaller than the distance between EvilDragon's right button and that gold tab below the screw hole on the Circuit Board, so there is still no problem. Especially since, as I have mentioned a long time before, the button contact can be right next to that gold tab. EvilDragon was doing it on a previous revision on the bottom right of the keyboard.

Anyway, I'm just going to drop off this discussion. No matter what arguments I give they'll just get brushed off / ignored.

I am adequately addressing your arguments. I don't see how you believe they are being ignored. Thanks for the GIF, btw.

-God Ginrai

 

[Exophase]

Of course. But as far as I'm aware, smaller buttons actually makes it less likely to accidentally hit other buttons. Because the buttons are smaller, there is less area to accidentally hit.

On the other hand, smaller buttons need less force to depress and are easier to hit at an angle.

Do you think it's arbitrary that almost no one uses buttons these small?

 

[Yoyobuae]

Anyway, I'm just going to drop off this discussion. No matter what arguments I give they'll just get brushed off / ignored.

I am adequately addressing your arguments. I don't see how you believe they are being ignored. Thanks for the GIF, btw.

-God Ginrai

Well, I don't see how you don't see it.   Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Natsu]

Nice imagery. :lol: Can you give me a reason for your dislike for the other one?

 

[levi]

I can see that the two images are different, but they mean little more to me than those pictures of potatoes.  That's my point.  A little text explaining what you're trying to achieve would be useful.

 

[Natsu]

I can see that the two images are different, but they mean little more to me than those pictures of potatoes.  That's my point.  A little text explaining what you're trying to achieve would be useful.

I thought it was self-explanatory. Basically trying to get the best spacing out of that layout.


The main buttons are still on the outside,still keep their size and space, not too near the keys (which I ponder if that's really a issue) and have the 6 buttons layout.

 

[God Ginrai]

On the other hand, smaller buttons need less force to depress and are easier to hit at an angle.

I find the ease of hitting at an angle suspect... As for needing less force to depress, is that really a problem? It's not like they are just going to depress whenever you look at them the wrong way. If anything, this should allow for faster input.

Do you think it's arbitrary that almost no one uses buttons these small?

Except Nintendo has used them for the 3DS handhelds, and I believe they were also this small on the DS as well. (I don't remember about any of the GBA models, it's been so long for me)

As for whether it's arbitrary or not. Of course there are reasons why home consoles use larger buttons:

• With more room on a controller, you are able to space the buttons out further. However, the more you space out the buttons, the larger you need to make them so that they are easy for the user to find.
• Many controllers now have analog buttons. To accurately control an analog button, you want a wider surface area on the button so that you can better distribute the force, allowing for better granularity of input. Hence, larger buttons.

Since the buttons won't be widely spread out, and we are not using analog buttons, larger buttons are not as important for this device.
-God Ginrai

 

[TeDaDeS]

God Ginrai, I love the button discussion, so I hope this thread will eventually decide what the bestest layout should be. Just in case someone asks afterwards.

 

[levi]

The main buttons are still on the outside,still keep their size and space, not too near the keys (which I ponder if that's really a issue) and have the 6 buttons layout.

Okay then, why the difference between the two designs?

FWIW, I do prefer the left one over the right one.  On the left one I can't imagine it'd be too easy to hit either of the new buttons without conflicting with the other.  It also looks distorted, and I'm not sure what motivations drew you to make that picture.

 

[Exophase]

I find the ease of hitting at an angle suspect... As for needing less force to depress, is that really a problem? It's not like they are just going to depress whenever you look at them the wrong way. If anything, this should allow for faster input.

Less force to depress means easier to accidentally press...

Except Nintendo has used them for the 3DS handhelds, and I believe they were also this small on the DS as well. (I don't remember about any of the GBA models, it's been so long for me)

If someone wants to provide size measurements for these small buttons I'll measure the button sizes on my 3DS and DSL and see if they are actually this small. From images, I have doubts that they're so small. Here's Pandora vs 3DS XL:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/burakgursoy/8644318340/

And 3DS vs 3DS XL in case you think the button size changed between the two:

http://www.joystiq.com/screenshots/3ds-xl-vs-3ds/#!slide=733693

As for whether it's arbitrary or not. Of course there are reasons why home consoles use larger buttons:

• With more room on a controller, you are able to space the buttons out further. However, the more you space out the buttons, the larger you need to make them so that they are easy for the user to find.
• Many controllers now have analog buttons. To accurately control an analog button, you want a wider surface area on the button so that you can better distribute the force, allowing for better granularity of input. Hence, larger buttons.

Since the buttons won't be widely spread out, and we are not using analog buttons, larger buttons are not as important for this device.

Yeah sorry, I strongly disagree that those are the only reasons they're sized the way they are... Adding pressure sensitivity didn't make the buttons larger, and making them easier for the user to find... really?

 

[God Ginrai]

Less force to depress means easier to accidentally press...

...assuming you hit it. A smaller footprint means that you are less likely to land on it unintentionally.

Yeah sorry, I strongly disagree that those are the only reasons they're sized the way they are...

I never said they are the only reasons. Those were just two that came to mind. You asked if I thought it was arbitrary. I said "of course not", and gave reasons they would use larger buttons to show that your "easily depressible buttons" reason wasn't the only possible reason.

Adding pressure sensitivity didn't make the buttons larger

I'm not saying they made them larger. I am saying that they won't make them smaller because it would effect pressure sensitivity.

and making them easier for the user to find... really?

I don't mean easy to find with the eyes, but with the thumb. Just because you place the buttons along a line the thumb travels does not mean that everyone will grip the device in the same way. Therefore, the angle their thumb travels may be slightly different. With smaller buttons when they are spread out, that problem is exaggerated. By using larger buttons when they are spread out, you ensure that even within a margin of error, their thumb will still be landing on the button.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

I remember this NES control which had very small (like half the regular size) buttons with a very rounded top. It wrecked havoc on my fingers during long playing sessions (and unluckily they were the turbo buttons, which I did want to use ).

 

[Natsu]

Okay then, why the difference between the two designs?

Basically trying to get the best spacing out of that layout.

FWIW, I do prefer the left one over the right one. On the left one I can't imagine it'd be too easy to hit either of the new buttons without conflicting with the other.

If you follow it with your thumb, I don't think it would be that hard.

It also looks distorted, and I'm not sure what motivations drew you to make that picture.

Not sure what you mean by either of these.

 

[God Ginrai]

I remember this NES control which had very small (like half the regular size) buttons with a very rounded top. It wrecked havoc on my fingers during long playing sessions (and unluckily they were the turbo buttons, which I did want to use ).

I don't know what that controller looks like, so I can't comment too much on it. Although I will say that I can't stand buttons w/ a large convex curve to them. Even The Pandora buttons felt a bit too curved on the top for my tastes. However, in the case of the Pandora, this might instead be because of the plastic or the keymat. The Pandora buttons feel very hard when I press on them.

On a somewhat related tangent. The NES controller always felt very bad to me because the A and B buttons were right next to each other, instead of angled.

-God Ginrai

 

[levi]

@Exophase

By my magic measuring stick, I make my 3DS (non-XL) buttons to be 7.2mm in size.  In comparison my Pandora's buttons are 7.9mm, so actually they're not all that small and almost certainly bigger than the ones ED has in his prototype case/board.

It also looks distorted, and I'm not sure what motivations drew you to make that picture.

Not sure what you mean by either of these.

Well, admittedly I am still hankering after a standard SEGA-style 6-button layout, so I'm looking for the two lines of three for those Capcom fighters.  Those lines are distorted in your right-hand layout, so I'm looking for your justification for the right hand design over the left hand one to see if there's something I missed in preferring the left one.

 

[Natsu]

Well, admittedly I am still hankering after a standard SEGA-style 6-button layout, so I'm looking for the two lines of three for those Capcom fighters.  Those lines are distorted in your right-hand layout, so I'm looking for your justification for the right hand design over the left hand one to see if there's something I missed in preferring the left one.

Oh. Just in case someone says, "It's too close to the nub". While I thought the left one was fine, I wanted to be sure.