The case of the case.

[Exophase]

Personally, I wouldn't want a six button layout to compromise the functionality of the Pandora-like four main buttons even slightly, and I think making them smaller does this. The use cases for four buttons dwarf those for six. I also don't think that the nubs should be moved more inwards because they're already not that accessible.

I actually prefer Yoyobuae's first suggestion. The upper left button in ED's standard design looks harder to press. Yoyobuae's is a closer compromise to getting the Sega-like pattern. Yes it makes one button combination harder than it would with Sega's but I really doubt games using those buttons rely on that combination very much.

 

[God Ginrai]

ehh... solves that problem, but creates new ones. It is impossible to press the top-left and bottom-mid together.

Funny you say that now when earlier you said:

This layout does not offer a way to press B+C. And X+Y in this layout is also harder, since it must go across the center of the cross.

-God Ginrai

I can comfortably pres A+B on Pandora's layout, just need to use the edge of the thumb to stay clear of X and Y buttons.

I said harder, not impossible. And I certainly can't do it comfortably. My thumb has to approach horizontally, and turned sideways so that it doesn't depress the X and Y buttons. That's quite an uncomfortable position.

So even if there was no button in the middle, it would still be uncomfortable.

 I don't see what kind of argument you're trying to make here. I mentioned that it was harder to hit X+Y, not impossible. If there was no button in the middle on yours, it would cease to be impossible. My main point in my original quote is that it was impossible to hit B+C using Grench's mapping.

Also on your layout the top-middle and bottom-right have the same exact problem.

On my layout, the two buttons to press are closer together, allowing for you to not have to flatten your thumb as much to depress both at the same time. This makes it easier to avoid hitting the other buttons.

Moving it inwards means having to go over the corner keyboard keys to reach those buttons.

It already does that in EvilDragon's layout. What's your point?

-God Ginrai

 

[God Ginrai]

Personally, I wouldn't want a six button layout to compromise the functionality of the Pandora-like four main buttons even slightly, and I think making them smaller does this. The use cases for four buttons dwarf those for six. I also don't think that the nubs should be moved more inwards because they're already not that accessible.

I actually prefer Yoyobuae's first suggestion. The upper left button in ED's standard design looks harder to press. Yoyobuae's is a closer compromise to getting the Sega-like pattern. Yes it makes one button combination harder than it would with Sega's but I really doubt games using those buttons rely on that combination very much.

You just got finished saying you think that making the buttons smaller compromises the functionality of the Pandora-like four main buttons and then voiced your support for the layout that makes the buttons smaller. I don't understand where you are going with this.

EDIT: Just noticed you were talking about something different.

Also, Exophase, in Yoyobuae's original suggestion, the left small button is closer than EvilDragon's small buttons, and would conflict with the nub.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

Also on your layout the top-middle and bottom-right have the same exact problem.

On my layout, the two buttons to press are closer together, allowing for you to not have to flatten your thumb as much to depress both at the same time. This makes it easier to avoid hitting the other buttons.

But there's still two fat buttons in the way. It's even worst than pressing A+B on Pandora because there's less room in between the buttons.

Moving it inwards means having to go over the corner keyboard keys to reach those buttons.

It already does that in EvilDragon's layout. What's your point?

-God Ginrai

On ED's layout is not as bad as in yours. And besides, the idea is to improve upon ED's layout. ^_^

Personally, I wouldn't want a six button layout to compromise the functionality of the Pandora-like four main buttons even slightly, and I think making them smaller does this. The use cases for four buttons dwarf those for six. I also don't think that the nubs should be moved more inwards because they're already not that accessible.


I actually prefer Yoyobuae's first suggestion. The upper left button in ED's standard design looks harder to press. Yoyobuae's is a closer compromise to getting the Sega-like pattern. Yes it makes one button combination harder than it would with Sega's but I really doubt games using those buttons rely on that combination very much.

You just got finished saying you think that making the buttons smaller compromises the functionality of the Pandora-like four main buttons and then voiced your support for the layout that makes the buttons smaller. I don't understand where you are going with this.

-God Ginrai

I think he is talking about this layout:

Since it keeps the position of the four main buttons the same as Pandora. Anyway that layout doesn't work because the leftmost button collides significantly with the nub's base (which is square). The leftmost button cannot be any further left than the new buttons on ED's layout, since those buttons are right on the edge of the nub's base.

All those space constraints make it impossible to keep the same buttons size and spacing for the main 4 buttons and fit the two new buttons to the bottom-left or top-right. Something's gotta give.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Maybe we should get rid of the speakers or put the speakers in the back of the lid or get rid of them (who cares I use headphones anyway ) to gain more space in the keyboard area for the 6 buttons?

 

[Exophase]

Okay, and I know it was explained at some point why upper right wasn't an option either but could someone refresh me on that?

Maybe we should get rid of the speakers or put them in the back of the lid to gain more space in the keyboard area for the 6 buttons?

Getting rid of the speakers entirely is definitely not an option. There's no room in the lid unless you make it wider and if you're making the whole thing wider that kind of makes the other problems moot.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Okay, and I know it was explained at some point why upper right wasn't an option either but could someone refresh me on that?

Maybe we should get rid of the speakers or put them in the back of the lid to gain more space in the keyboard area for the 6 buttons?

Getting rid of the speakers entirely is definitely not an option. There's no room in the lid unless you make it wider and if you're making the whole thing wider that kind of makes the other problems moot.

I didn't say to put it the old way as on the Pandora.  I said put them in the back of the lid which doesn't require expanding the width of PYRA.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Okay, and I know it was explained at some point why upper right wasn't an option either but could someone refresh me on that?

There's some pads in the PCB and a hole for one of the screws:

 

[God Ginrai]

But there's still two fat buttons in the way. It's even worst than pressing A+B on Pandora because there's less room in between the buttons.

 There's still adequate distance between the two. The reason that A+B is uncomfortable is because it is perfectly horizontal, not because of the distance between the buttons. I can press X+Y on the Pandora much easier, even though the distances are the same, because of the angle that my thumb approaches from.

On ED's layout is not as bad as in yours. And besides, the idea is to improve upon ED's layout. ^_^

 There is no "not as bad". It either happens or it doesn't. It happens in both layouts.

Maybe we should get rid of the speakers or put the speakers in the back of the lid or get rid of them (who cares I use headphones anyway ) to gain more space in the keyboard area for the 6 buttons?

 If it were possible to move the speakers to the lid, I'd be all over it in an instant. (Mainly because I want the speakers to face the same direction as the screen) However, the only way to do this is to make the device wider, which a fair number of people are against.

Getting rid of the speakers entirely is definitely not an option. There's no room in the lid unless you make it wider and if you're making the whole thing wider that kind of makes the other problems moot.

 Actually, moving the speakers to the lid would make it possible to have a much more accurate 6-button layout than simply widening the device would. However, the width of the device is something that a large majority do not want to change. (Even though the width of the device is the dimension with the least effect on pocketability)

I didn't say to put it the old way as on the Pandora.  I said put them in the back of the lid which doesn't require expanding the width of PYRA.

If they were in the back of the lid, they would be pointing completely in the wrong direction. You might use headphones, but not all of us do.

-God Ginrai

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

I didn't say to put it the old way as on the Pandora.  I said put them in the back of the lid which doesn't require expanding the width of PYRA.

If they were in the back of the lid, they would be pointing completely in the wrong direction. You might use headphones, but not all of us do.

-God Ginrai

It's not like you're gonna get the same sound quality from living room stereo system through these small speakers.  So facing front or back or top or bottom doesn't really make much of a difference.  The only purpose of these small speakers is just to give you, well, some sound so you know what's going on, not to have extreme quality sound through them.  I just tested using my Pandora with the speakers facing away from me, and I find it is just fine.

 

[FaeMinx]

Having speakers is probably mandatory...

... but personally I have no use for them.

But really, you can't sell a handheld without speakers...

 

[God Ginrai]

It's not like you're gonna get the same sound quality from living stereo system through these small speakers.  So facing front or back or top or bottom doesn't really make much of a difference.  The only purpose of these small speakers is just to give you, well, some sound so you know what's going, not to have extreme quality sound through them.  I just tested using my Pandora with the speakers facing away from me, and I find it is just fine.

Exactly, it is to give sound to the user, not to the people surrounding him/her. Sound travels in the direction it is pointed. You would have to turn the volume up a lot to be able to hear at an adequate volume when they face the other direction. And at that volume, it would not be adequate for the people in front of you.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

But there's still two fat buttons in the way. It's even worst than pressing A+B on Pandora because there's less room in between the buttons.

 
There's still adequate distance between the two. The reason that A+B is uncomfortable is because it is perfectly horizontal, not because of the distance between the buttons. I can press X+Y on the Pandora much easier, even though the distances are the same, because of the angle that my thumb approaches from.

Not quite what I meant:

The neither of the two highlighted button combinations would work. The first one because the other two buttons get in the way, and the second one because the buttons are aligned in the wrong direction (thumb would need to be bend like / diagonal).

And once when the button caps are added it's clear all the buttons are way too close to each other. There's simply no way to keep both the large size buttons and these 6-button layouts, there just isnt any room.

 

[Natsu]

I don't see the reason to make every button smaller.

 

[God Ginrai]

Not quite what I meant:

The neither of the two highlighted button combinations would work. The first one because the other two buttons get in the way, and the second one because the buttons are aligned in the wrong direction (thumb would need to be bend like / diagonal).

 As I said before, because the buttons are closer together, I don't have to depress in a way that would flatten my thumb, hence the outer buttons would not be depressed. As for the second one, you're assuming I'm going to run my thumb up flat between the other buttons. That button combination is accomplished even on the Sega Saturn pad by arching your thumb so your tip presses the two buttons.

And once when the button caps are added it's clear all the buttons are way too close to each other. There's simply no way to keep both the large size buttons and these 6-button layouts, there just isnt any room.

 The button caps you added are larger than the holes in EvilDragon's picture. You also included the area around them, which includes the holes around those buttons.

I don't see the reason to make every button smaller.

Far left button conflicts with the nub on your version, and the button combo problem I saw with Yoyobuae's is even more exaggerated on yours.

EDIT:

@Yoyobuae: I am envious of your gif-making skills. Do you do that in GIMP?

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

@Yoyobuae: I am envious of your gif-making skills. Do you do that in GIMP?

No, I use magic!!! ... Imagemagick

Should be doable in GIMP also though.

 

[levi]

Can any of you give a use case for such combinations?  Only use case for such chording I can think of is Super Mario's run and jump for the flag, but that's not a cross-the-pad combo, but two adjacent buttons.  Are there any games where you need cross-the-pad combos?

 

[Yoyobuae]

Hey, I don't know of any either. It was GG which first brought up those combos.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

It's not like you're gonna get the same sound quality from living stereo system through these small speakers.  So facing front or back or top or bottom doesn't really make much of a difference.  The only purpose of these small speakers is just to give you, well, some sound so you know what's going, not to have extreme quality sound through them.  I just tested using my Pandora with the speakers facing away from me, and I find it is just fine.

Exactly, it is to give sound to the user, not to the people surrounding him/her. Sound travels in the direction it is pointed. You would have to turn the volume up a lot to be able to hear at an adequate volume when they face the other direction. And at that volume, it would not be adequate for the people in front of you.

-God Ginrai

Did you test the Pandora speakers facing away from you?  I found no problem.  Plus if you're a considerate person, you would use headphones in public not turn on your speakers.

 

[Natsu]

Far left button conflicts with the nub on your version, and the button combo problem I saw with Yoyobuae's is even more exaggerated on yours.

It's the same distance as the original position of the 2 buttons. In fact, it's the same, if not more, distance away form the nub as yours. I need some physical imaginary because from what I can tell, it seems alright for combos.

Plus if you're a considerate person, you would use headphones in public not turn on your speakers.

It's the public. 9/10 it will be too loud for anyone to care about your speakers. :lol: