The case of the case.

[Saber]

Making the device wider is not an option, and neither is getting too close to the tolerances or creating potential weak points in the material strength of the case.

But if GG's "real" 6-button layout can be implemented by moving the right nub 2-3mm to the left, then I think that really is an option to consider. That is not really a sacrifice to make, while there is something to gain. I can live with ED's 6-button layout, but I think GG's layout is better, if it can be done without sacrificing more than exact nub symmetry.

I wouldn't want the nubs to be asymmetrically placed,  but I don't see a problem with moving them both inward by a couple of mm.  

I don't have particularly large hands, and for example I find pressing and holding Start/Alt on the Pandora for touchscreen right click to be quite awkward,  but I'm pretty sure I could still very comfortably operate the nubs if they were 2-3 mm further away from the edge.

Also even though GG is avoiding it in his proposals I wouldn't object to slightly smaller action buttons if it meant we could get a better layout. 

- Neelix

In my latest keyboard layout I suggested moving Select to the left of Start which would make both keys easier to press during gaming. Most gamepads out there have it situated like this and we'd have another key to work with where Select was.

We'll probably get a small e-ink screen on the lid before it happens though.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

The action button layout gets uglier and uglier each time I see them.  I'm not sure how far the PCB design has reached, but if the areas around the right nub and action buttons have gotten to the point where making changes is difficult, time consuming, and costly, then I suggest stick with EvilDragon original layout.  It will be fine.  I guarantee it

 

[God Ginrai]

Also even though GG is avoiding it in his proposals I wouldn't object to slightly smaller action buttons if it meant we could get a better layout.

I personally would not mind this either, but I avoid it in my proposals because EvilDragon seems opposed to changing the button size.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

How about putting the two new buttons side by side:

If I'm to look at that as ABC bottom row and XYZ top row, then X+Y looks really hard to press.

True, but should be doable. It's similar to the distance between Pandora's A+B.

The nub would need to move a bit to allow room for the buttons though.

 
Then how is this any better than the 6-button layout I proposed?

Your layout moves the original 4 buttons closer together and switches them to small buttons. I didn't touch the original buttons in my proposal.

Anyway, that probably won't work. Only way would be to shrink the original 4 buttons and bunch them together significantly. Maybe if I apply that to my proposal it would avoid the nub collision, but I'm not sure if it is acceptable to make the original 4 buttons so small/close together.

 

[God Ginrai]

True, but should be doable. It's similar to the distance between Pandora's A+B.

 Not unless you can get your left thumb over there. your right thumb goes from a Southeast to Northwest position from the joint. How do you suppose you would make it do Southwest to Northeast?

Your layout moves the original 4 buttons closer together and switches them to small buttons. I didn't touch the original buttons in my proposal.

 Please read my comments before making judgements on my proposal. I have not changed the size of the buttons in my proposal. I specifically made sure not to. Neelix even pointed that fact out.

Look, I even mention that the size is the same here:

I have not yet made any suggestions to decrease the size of the buttons. All 6 buttons in my suggested layout would be the same size as the main 4 in EvilDragon's layout.

-God Ginrai

 

[Tenka]

I like Yoyobuae's proposal more than EvilDragon's idea, it's less awkward than using O and P like I've gotten used to.

 

[TrashyMG]

I like Yoyobuae's proposal more than EvilDragon's idea, it's less awkward than using O and P like I've gotten used to.

However this idea still may have the issue of it being too close, the nub shroud on the inside of the case would prob still hit if moved in the lower right corner. 

 

[Yoyobuae]

True, but should be doable. It's similar to the distance between Pandora's A+B.

 
Not unless you can get your left thumb over there. your right thumb goes from a Southeast to Northwest position from the joint. How do you suppose you would make it do Southwest to Northeast?

Isn't it the same on your layout? X+Y are also southwest to northeast (your A, B, X, Y buttons are still arranged in a cross).

 

Your layout moves the original 4 buttons closer together and switches them to small buttons. I didn't touch the original buttons in my proposal.

 
Please read my comments before making judgements on my proposal. I have not changed the size of the buttons in my proposal. I specifically made sure not to. Neelix even pointed that fact out.


Look, I even mention that the size is the same here:

I have not yet made any suggestions to decrease the size of the buttons. All 6 buttons in my suggested layout would be the same size as the main 4 in EvilDragon's layout.

-God Ginrai

Yes, the size is the same, but you have moved them a lot closer to each other. I don't know about you but if Pandora's buttons were moved as close as in your layout then it would be harder to press a single button without touching the adjacent one.

Also, you accidentally snipped a couple of pixels off the button holes during your editing.

 

[God Ginrai]

Isn't it the same on your layout? X+Y are also southwest to northeast (your A, B, X, Y buttons are still arranged in a cross).

 But there's not a tiny button jutting between them like in yours. If I were to thumb it on yours, I would hit the small button inbetween.

Yes, the size is the same, but you have moved them a lot closer to each other.

I didn't dispute that I moved them closer together. But you said smaller buttons as well, which is not true.

I don't know about you but if Pandora's buttons were moved as close as in your layout then it would be harder to press a single button without touching the adjacent one.

 It's the same distance as the GP2X buttons were apart from each other. The GP2X didn't suffer such problems.

Also, you accidentally snipped a couple of pixels off the button holes during your editing.

No I didn't. I made sure to select the area around the holes when I moved them.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

Now using small buttons instead:

Ended up looking quite similar to GG's version, except the 4 main buttons are to the top right, instead of bottom left. That helps a bit with nub clearance (since in this version the leftmost button sits at a bit lower position).
 

 

[God Ginrai]

Now using small buttons instead:

Ended up looking quite similar to GG's version, except the 4 main buttons are to the top right, instead of bottom left. That helps a bit with nub clearance (since in this version the leftmost button sits at a bit lower position).

Your bottom button is too close to the keyboard keys.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

 

[FaeMinx]

I could live with this.

However, no decision can be made with out physically testing it first.

Ed, how feasible would it be to create some mock-ups of this layout, as well as GG's suggestion but with both nubs moved inwards? Would it be costly? 

 

[God Ginrai]

ehh... solves that problem, but creates new ones. It is impossible to press the top-left and bottom-mid together.

Ed, how feasible would it be to create some mock-ups of this layout, as well as GG's suggestion but with both nubs moved inwards? Would it be costly?

I'm curious about this, too.

-God Ginrai

 

[klapse]

As usual I prefer ED's idea.

 

[Natsu]

So, pretty much like mine, but with smaller buttons.

It is impossible to press the top-left and bottom-mid together.

I can't visualize why it is impossible.

 

[thatgui]

It is impossible to press the top-left and bottom-mid together.

I can't visualize why it is impossible.

Maybe I'm understanding things wrong here, but in order to press the leftmost in the first row and the rightmost in the last row simultaneously, you would automatically press the leftmost in the middle row, if you want to only use one finger to do it.

 

[levi]

FWIW, I like the idea of the new buttons in a standard 6-button layout being the ones at the bottom left rather than those on the top right. While it's unconventional due to standard labelling, we already have non-standard labels so that's not an issue. And it means that B is now near the edge, and easily accessible. I suppose X is now moved to the middle of the bottom row, but it's still better that both of them are nearer the edge that they were.

 

[God Ginrai]

It is impossible to press the top-left and bottom-mid together.

I can't visualize why it is impossible.

Maybe I'm understanding things wrong here, but in order to press the leftmost in the first row and the rightmost in the last row simultaneously, you would automatically press the leftmost in the middle row, if you want to only use one finger to do it.

 Yea, that's basically what I meant. I should have worded it so that I mentioned that it is impossible to press them together "without hitting the button inbetween".

FWIW, I like the idea of the new buttons in a standard 6-button layout being the ones at the bottom left rather than those on the top right. While it's unconventional due to standard labelling, we already have non-standard labels so that's not an issue. And it means that B is now near the edge, and easily accessible. I suppose X is now moved to the middle of the bottom row, but it's still better that both of them are nearer the edge that they were.

I'm actually the opposite. I feel that it makes more sense for the cross to be the one on the inside so that we don't have to have B so close to the edge. By moving it inwards, you allow for all 4 of the standard cross buttons to be comfortably reached, IMHO.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

ehh... solves that problem, but creates new ones. It is impossible to press the top-left and bottom-mid together.

Funny you say that now when earlier you said:

This layout does not offer a way to press B+C. And X+Y in this layout is also harder, since it must go across the center of the cross.

-God Ginrai

I can comfortably pres A+B on Pandora's layout, just need to use the edge of the thumb to stay clear of X and Y buttons.

I said harder, not impossible. And I certainly can't do it comfortably. My thumb has to approach horizontally, and turned sideways so that it doesn't depress the X and Y buttons. That's quite an uncomfortable position.

So even if there was no button in the middle, it would still be uncomfortable.

Anyway, this is getting ridiculous. What's going to be the next complain, that the top-left and bottom-right are impossible to press? <_<

Also on your layout the top-middle and bottom-right have the same exact problem.

Can we just accept that not all button press combinations will be possible? Doubt there is a game which will require all these contortionist button combinations. And if there is, then some remapping would help solve the issue (ie. ZYX CBA).

I'm actually the opposite. I feel that it makes more sense for the cross to be the one on the inside so that we don't have to have B so close to the edge. By moving it inwards, you allow for all 4 of the standard cross buttons to be comfortably reached, IMHO.

-God Ginrai

Moving it inwards means having to go over the corner keyboard keys to reach those buttons.