The case of the case.

[edgex004]

 So why not enlarge it a bit and make it more comfortable?

I will consistently be against this. If I wanted comfort-centic controls that are dificult to keep with me, I would get a sheild. I also don't believe that increasing size would necessarily allow for more comfort for everyone. For me, it could be less comfortable.

The Pandora is perfectly comfortable for me to hold and would hope we can work to increase the comfort of others without chipping away at the portability and comfort we already have. Luckily, I have no problem taking my OP everywhere with me. It certainly doesn't fit in the pocket of every pair of pants that I own, but if I don't wear pants that can accomodate, I have a variety of backpacks or hip bags that I use to keep it at my side.

I am also a smaller guy, so keeping the device from growing is in the best interest of both hands and pockets for my size. Reaching the middle of the OP's keyboard is fine now, but is very close to the size limit where that would no longer be the case for someone of my size. Making the device bigger worries me that I would need to let go of one hand's grip simply to reach a button in the middle of the device.

 

[Saber]

 So why not enlarge it a bit and make it more comfortable?

Making the device bigger worries me that I would need to let go of one hand's grip simply to reach a button in the middle of the device.

That's a worry many of us already have with the Pandora and worsening it by widening the Pyra for a few fighting games is an unattractive path. As a first batch owner, the Select key was always a moderate effort to press because of where it sits. Moving the nubs inward is not a good option then either.

Most of us appreciate the two new face buttons we now have though. 

 

[God Ginrai]

That's a worry many of us already have with the Pandora and worsening it by widening the Pyra for a few fighting games is an unattractive path. As a first batch owner, the Select key was always a moderate effort to press because of where it sits. Moving the nubs inward is not a good option then either.

Widening and moving the nubs inward are two very different things. Widening the device increases the distance between the edge of the device and the Start/Select/Home buttons in the center. Moving the nubs inward does not have any effect on the distance from the edge of the device to the Start/Select/Home buttons. We're not talking about moving the nubs right next to the Start/Select/Home buttons. There is a large gap between those buttons and the nubs, and that large gap would still mostly be there even if we moved the nubs in a couple of mm.

Also, it was made very clear in the 6-button topic that fighting games are not the only games that benefit from the 6-button layout.

-God Ginrai

 

[Saber]

That's a worry many of us already have with the Pandora and worsening it by widening the Pyra for a few fighting games is an unattractive path. As a first batch owner, the Select key was always a moderate effort to press because of where it sits. Moving the nubs inward is not a good option then either.

Widening and moving the nubs inward are two very different things. Widening the device increases the distance between the edge of the device and the Start/Select/Home buttons in the center. Moving the nubs inward does not have any effect on the distance from the edge of the device to the Start/Select/Home buttons. We're not talking about moving the nubs right next to the Start/Select/Home buttons. There is a large gap between those buttons and the nubs, and that large gap would still mostly be there even if we moved the nubs in a couple of mm.


Also, it was made very clear in the 6-button topic that fighting games are not the only games that benefit from the 6-button layout.

-God Ginrai

Of course widening the Pyra and moving the nubs inward are two different things. That gap isn't as large as you might think and I had found the location of the nubs to be absolute spot on when I wanted to use them with the shoulders. Changing that for you and few others would place me and many others at a disadvantage who want to keep the nubs where they are now on the Pandora.

Sure there are other games that would benefit for some of you who want to play them in your proposed six button layout GG, but most of us have very little need or desire to do so. While not ideal, a gamepad with the NeoGeo or Sega Genesis scheme would suffice for the authentic feel being strived for.  

 

[God Ginrai]

Of course widening the Pyra and moving the nubs inward are two different things. That gap isn't as large as you might think and I had found the location of the nubs to be absolute spot on when I wanted to use them with the shoulders. Changing that for you and few others would place me and many others at a disadvantage who want to keep the nubs where they are now on the Pandora.

 2mm isn't as large as you might think. That is smaller than 1/7th the diameter of the Pandora nub. If we moved the nub that much, you'd barely notice a difference, assuming you even notice anything.

Sure there are other games that would benefit for some of you who want to play them in your proposed six button layout GG, but most of us have very little need or desire to do so. While not ideal, a gamepad with the NeoGeo or Sega Genesis scheme would suffice for the authentic feel being strived for.

You say this, however that same argument would work for using the extra 2 shoulder buttons instead of 2 extra face buttons. And yet, there were enough people who wanted 6 face buttons to be able to accurately play their 6-button games that EvilDragon acquiesced.

Also, a gamepad would not suffice. This is a portable gaming handheld. As soon as you try to use a joypad, you are sacrificing portability.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

Making the device wider is not an option, and neither is getting too close to the tolerances or creating potential weak points in the material strength of the case.

But if GG's "real" 6-button layout can be implemented by moving the right nub 2-3mm to the left, then I think that really is an option to consider. That is not really a sacrifice to make, while there is something to gain. I can live with ED's 6-button layout, but I think GG's layout is better, if it can be done without sacrificing more than exact nub symmetry.

 

[Saber]

Of course widening the Pyra and moving the nubs inward are two different things. That gap isn't as large as you might think and I had found the location of the nubs to be absolute spot on when I wanted to use them with the shoulders. Changing that for you and few others would place me and many others at a disadvantage who want to keep the nubs where they are now on the Pandora.

 
2mm isn't as large as you might think. That is smaller than 1/7th the diameter of the Pandora nub. If we moved the nub that much, you'd barely notice a difference, assuming you even notice anything.

Sure there are other games that would benefit for some of you who want to play them in your proposed six button layout GG, but most of us have very little need or desire to do so. While not ideal, a gamepad with the NeoGeo or Sega Genesis scheme would suffice for the authentic feel being strived for.

You say this, however that same argument would work for using the extra 2 shoulder buttons instead of 2 extra face buttons. And yet, there were enough people who wanted 6 face buttons to be able to accurately play their 6-button games that EvilDragon acquiesced.


Also, a gamepad would not suffice. This is a portable gaming handheld. As soon as you try to use a joypad, you are sacrificing portability.

-God Ginrai

The problem here is for whatever reason it isn't sinking in that you won't have the six button layout the way you want. ED won't move the nubs inward a mm or two and he won't widen the case. We can all think he should do this or that but he will do what he wants and we will accept it.

ED has already acceded two more face buttons. They are more than the nothing he could've given us and let's be honest, we'll buy the Pyra even with the buttons arranged as they are in the prototype because there is nothing quite like it.

 

[Kiga]

I prefer ED's layout because it is original and I like the way the two extra buttons are different from others. I always felt that 6 same aligned buttons are too much and looks like a mess. It's not a coincidence that there is no longer that type of layout.

 

[levi]

In my opinion, despite being generally in favour of GG's six button layout, I think it really is only important for fighters, and even then only some Capcom ones (I don't know of any SNK, Namco or Sega fighters that need more than 3/4 buttons).  We've got more shoulder buttons than any six button controller which work fine as fire buttons in any context where you don't need two sets of three, even ignoring ED's two mini buttons (if that's the alternative).

 

[Tenka]

Decreasing the size of the existing buttons a teeny tiny amount wouldn't be too bad, would it?  And the two new buttons could remain as small as in EvilDragon's proposed layout, being smaller is certainly more preferable to people like me than being smaller and on the opposite side.  If a miniscule fraction of a millimeter size alteration of the previous four game buttons (allowing them to withdraw into a cross of slightly less area) is combined with the new buttons being as small as in ED's layout, (or heck, even a quarter millimeter smaller since the Sabers don't car about these buttons) the inward movement of the nubs required to total the necessary space would be too slight for me to notice, and surely too slight for anyone who doesn't keep up with these changes to realize.

But please, let us also keep in mind the gains from this change.  Nintendo 64 games (which will finally be absolutely perfect come the release of the Pyra I'm sure) will all have a natively correct layout, the button mapping printed in the corner of Zelda will be true!  And that is a lot of games, gentlefolk.  But although the number of N64 and Genesis games is mighty, it isn't polite to base a compromising tweak of the Pyra entirely on emulated systems.  Every new game both ported to and produced solely for the Pyra will be able to rely on the option of the player pressing the two new buttons together at once, which is an important ability to have in a lot of games I have played.  < > and then those two buttons together is Purge's instant death move from the game Bio Freaks, and >+those two buttons together is the grab move from DBZ Budokai and another fighter I don't remember the name of.  If the new buttons are on either side of an existing button then they can't be pressed at once, and I believe that the layout needs to accommodate the use of only one thumb.

But I'm sorry, please continue working out your ideas, everyone.

 

[God Ginrai]

The problem here is for whatever reason it isn't sinking in that you won't have the six button layout the way you want. ED won't move the nubs inward a mm or two and he won't widen the case. We can all think he should do this or that but he will do what he wants and we will accept it.

 No, the problem is that you don't understand that we are trying to convince EvilDragon otherwise. EvilDragon wasn't doing 6 buttons at the beginning either, then after we showed him how important it was to us, he changed his mind. This is why I am putting this much effort into this, in an attempt to change EvilDragon's mind.

As _wb_ just said, having a real 6-button layout in this manner is little sacrifice for much gain.

It's not a coincidence that there is no longer that type of layout.

It actually is a coincidence.

• Sega, once a champion of the format, left the industry
• Nintendo has completely changed their layout each console generation. (NES:2,SNES:4cross-2s,N64:6-2s-1t,GC:4noncross-3s,Wii:2-1t-1o,WiiU:4cross-2s-2t)
• Sony created one controller, and stuck with it all the way through the PS3. Then they modified it a little for the PS4. The PS4 is probably the first time they actually put any new research into their controller in years.
• Microsoft had a 6-button layout, but then moved 2 of the buttons in a poorly-designed attempt to get something out that fit the hands of Japanese gamers. Then, they refined the design for the 360, coming up with a good design, (minus the shitty dpad) and just stuck with it for the XBone.

It's not that the 6-button design was phased out. It was merely that Microsoft and Sony plan to sit on a successful design until people complain, and Nintendo wouldn't keep a design even if it worked, at least on a console.
Also, the 6-button design still makes its rounds even now. There are 6-button USB controllers, and the 6-button Madkatz Street Fighter Fight Pads were actually hard to find because they were in such high demand.

EDIT:

Tenka's comments raise one very important point. If we go with EvilDragon's 6-button layout, then emulated games that needed to press C-Up and C-Right or C and Z together would be practically impossible to pull off.

-God Ginrai

 

[TeDaDeS]

If ED felt good about the idea I think he would propose something other than reasons why it isn't possible. I think adding 2 buttons is already quite brave, although GG placement looks more natural I would rather have bigger buttons.


ED should patent himself, he's quite unique. Who cares about a pyra nub configuration patent, there is no drive to sue people with patent claims. Guessing it would also not stroke with the open source history.

 

[Grench]

So - what we have:

C Y

A   B

Z X

(or the equivalent with the letters moved about)

The concern centers around being able to mash buttons A&X, B&Y, C&Z at the same time.  Thus the call for:

A B C

X Y Z

Simply re-mapping for the 6 button games at the emulator level could work like:

A B

X   Y

C Z

AX mash - check.

BY mash - check.

CZ mash - check.

All required 'mashable' pairs accounted for.  The existing layout can support that.

 

[Natsu]

I will consistently be against this. If I wanted comfort-centic controls that are dificult to keep with me, I would get a sheild. I also don't believe that increasing size would necessarily allow for more comfort for everyone. For me, it could be less comfortable.

Increasing it a bit ,as they are saying, is noway equivalent to the Shield.

The Pandora is perfectly comfortable for me to hold and would hope we can work to increase the comfort of others without chipping away at the portability and comfort we already have. Luckily, I have no problem taking my OP everywhere with me. It certainly doesn't fit in the pocket of every pair of pants that I own, but if I don't wear pants that can accomodate, I have a variety of backpacks or hip bags that I use to keep it at my side.

Making it a bit wider wouldn't change any of that.

I am also a smaller guy, so keeping the device from growing is in the best interest of both hands and pockets for my size. Reaching the middle of the OP's keyboard is fine now, but is very close to the size limit where that would no longer be the case for someone of my size. Making the device bigger worries me that I would need to let go of one hand's grip simply to reach a button in the middle of the device.

Same here. In fact, we could probably have bigger keyboard buttons and have


room for the speakers to be in the lid.

2mm isn't as large as you might think. That is smaller than 1/7th the diameter of the Pandora nub. If we moved the nub that much, you'd barely notice a difference, assuming you even notice anything.

Exactly what I was thinking.

You say this, however that same argument would work for using the extra 2 shoulder buttons instead of 2 extra face buttons. And yet, there were enough people who wanted 6 face buttons to be able to accurately play their 6-button games that EvilDragon acquiesced.


Also, a gamepad would not suffice. This is a portable gaming handheld. As soon as you try to use a joypad, you are sacrificing portability.

-God Ginrai

That argument can be use on almost anything we add to the Pyra. In fact, that's


an argument against the original buttons. :lol:

I prefer ED's layout because it is original and I like the way the two extra buttons are different from others. I always felt that 6 same aligned buttons are too much and looks like a mess. It's not a coincidence that there is no longer that type of layout.

Original doesn't equal better. It's the same amount of buttons, except one follows your thumb better. It's because they move the buttons somewhere else. Not because it's a unwanted or bad layout.

 

[God Ginrai]

If ED felt good about the idea I think he would propose something other than reasons why it isn't possible.

I can't honestly believe that. EvilDragon was originally against having 6 face buttons, I feel that he's equally against changing his layout. I'm not saying that he would not change his layout, but merely that I believe that I need to show him a standard 6-button layout that works, and have others supporting it, for him to consider it. (Which is what all my effort so far has been towards)

although GG placement looks more natural I would rather have bigger buttons.

I have not yet made any suggestions to decrease the size of the buttons. All 6 buttons in my suggested layout would be the same size as the main 4 in EvilDragon's layout.

So - what we have:

C Y

A   B

Z X

(or the equivalent with the letters moved about)

The concern centers around being able to mash buttons A&X, B&Y, C&Z at the same time.  Thus the call for:

A B C

X Y Z

Simply re-mapping for the 6 button games at the emulator level could work like:

A B

X   Y

C Z

AX mash - check.

BY mash - check.

CZ mash - check.

All required 'mashable' pairs accounted for.  The existing layout can support that.

This layout does not offer a way to press B+C. And X+Y in this layout is also harder, since it must go across the center of the cross.

-God Ginrai

 

[edgex004]

I will consistently be against this. If I wanted comfort-centic controls that are dificult to keep with me, I would get a sheild. I also don't believe that increasing size would necessarily allow for more comfort for everyone. For me, it could be less comfortable.

Increasing it a bit ,as they are saying, is noway equivalent to the Shield.

I agree, but due to my lack of desire for a device that subscribes to the sheild's design goals, I would prefer to make the pyra smaller rather than any bigger than it is now.

The Pandora is perfectly comfortable for me to hold and would hope we can work to increase the comfort of others without chipping away at the portability and comfort we already have. Luckily, I have no problem taking my OP everywhere with me. It certainly doesn't fit in the pocket of every pair of pants that I own, but if I don't wear pants that can accomodate, I have a variety of backpacks or hip bags that I use to keep it at my side.

Making it a bit wider wouldn't change any of that.

I believe it could. The Pandora hovers at the edge of fitting into the pockets that I currently keep it in. While I understand some increase may be necessary just for basic function of the new board, there are very few enhancements I would deem worthy of increasing case size.

I am also a smaller guy, so keeping the device from growing is in the best interest of both hands and pockets for my size. Reaching the middle of the OP's keyboard is fine now, but is very close to the size limit where that would no longer be the case for someone of my size. Making the device bigger worries me that I would need to let go of one hand's grip simply to reach a button in the middle of the device.

Same here. In fact, we could probably have bigger keyboard buttons and have
room for the speakers to be in the lid.

A bigger keyboard would be less comfortable for me. I already need to loosen my grip to reach the middle keyboard buttons. Any increase could cause me to let go entirely.


I don't want to say anyone else's ideas are bad. I would just like to voice the fact that, as a fellow user, keyboard size increases and case size increases would harm my experience. Moving the nubs in would decrease comfort for me too, but that is something I would live with if it made everyone else happy. Especially since like i said, the comfort of the controls comes second to portability for me.

 

[Yoyobuae]

How about putting the two new buttons side by side:

Or:

This would allow pressing them both simultaneously if needed. The nub would need to move a bit to allow room for the buttons though.

This layout does not offer a way to press B+C. And X+Y in this layout is also harder, since it must go across the center of the cross.

-God Ginrai

I can comfortably pres A+B on Pandora's layout, just need to use the edge of the thumb to stay clear of X and Y buttons.
 
 

A bigger keyboard would be less comfortable for me. I already need to loosen my grip to reach the middle keyboard buttons. Any increase could cause me to let go entirely.

I don't want to say anyone else's ideas are bad. I would just like to voice the fact that, as a fellow user, keyboard size increases and case size increases would harm my experience. Moving the nubs in would decrease comfort for me too, but that is something I would live with if it made everyone else happy. Especially since like i said, the comfort of the controls comes second to portability for me.

Same here. I could live with nubs being moved slightly to the center of the device, but not a wider device.

 

[God Ginrai]

How about putting the two new buttons side by side:

If I'm to look at that as ABC bottom row and XYZ top row, then X+Y looks really hard to press.

The nub would need to move a bit to allow room for the buttons though.

 Then how is this any better than the 6-button layout I proposed?

This layout does not offer a way to press B+C. And X+Y in this layout is also harder, since it must go across the center of the cross.

-God Ginrai

I can comfortably pres A+B on Pandora's layout, just need to use the edge of the thumb to stay clear of X and Y buttons.

 I said harder, not impossible. And I certainly can't do it comfortably. My thumb has to approach horizontally, and turned sideways so that it doesn't depress the X and Y buttons. That's quite an uncomfortable position.

Same here. I could live with nubs being moved slightly to the center of the device, but not a wider device.

I could live with the device wider, but I don't see the point in widening it when we can just move the nubs inward slightly.

-God Ginrai

 

[Neelix]

Making the device wider is not an option, and neither is getting too close to the tolerances or creating potential weak points in the material strength of the case.

But if GG's "real" 6-button layout can be implemented by moving the right nub 2-3mm to the left, then I think that really is an option to consider. That is not really a sacrifice to make, while there is something to gain. I can live with ED's 6-button layout, but I think GG's layout is better, if it can be done without sacrificing more than exact nub symmetry.

I wouldn't want the nubs to be asymmetrically placed,  but I don't see a problem with moving them both inward by a couple of mm.  

I don't have particularly large hands, and for example I find pressing and holding Start/Alt on the Pandora for touchscreen right click to be quite awkward,  but I'm pretty sure I could still very comfortably operate the nubs if they were 2-3 mm further away from the edge.

Also even though GG is avoiding it in his proposals I wouldn't object to slightly smaller action buttons if it meant we could get a better layout. 

- Neelix

 

[Natsu]

How about putting the two new buttons side by side:

Or:

Why? When they can be like this?