Should Pyra have a Camera?

Should Pyra have a Camera?

  • Yes

    Votes: 111 43.0%
  • No

    Votes: 147 57.0%

  • Total voters
    258

Wow. I begin to think that you're some kind of delusional.
You still can't arg with me, I'm still waiting for you to explain me how "smartphone is very different from a gaming device and pocket computer".

I proved that I am right. If you guys think that people don't know what mean "Sometimes", open a poll or shut up forever. Numbers tell the truth, claiming professionals claim
Really? 


  A smartphone is primarily designed to be used as a phone with a bit of features that allow it to do other things like gaming or be a general purpose pocket computer.. 


  A device like the Pandora/Pyra is designed to be a gaming and general purpose computing device primarily and if it has phone features it's an afterthought..  I won't get into the technicalities again why the Pyra won't make for a nice phoning experience it's been hashed over a hundred times.


That said, this concept is really easy to get, why does Moxie need to explain it. And even if he can't explain it, it doesn't mean he can't argue with you in other areas.. I have to say your reaction to this seems a bit irrational. I'm not going to censor you by locking this thread, but maybe you cool down for a while Kiga.
 
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Also note that the poll says "Should the Pyra have a camera", not "Do you want a camera in your Pyra"

Some people may be voting yes because they think other people want one and it would boost sales for ED.
 
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Really? 
  A smartphone is primarily designed to be used as a phone with a bit of features that allow it to do other things like gaming or be a general purpose pocket computer.. 


  A device like the Pandora/Pyra is designed to be a gaming and general purpose computing device primarily and if it has phone features it's an afterthought..  I won't get into the technicalities again why the Pyra won't make for a nice phoning experience it's been hashed over a hundred times.


That said, this concept is really easy to get, why does Moxie need to explain it.
So that make the smartphone very different from a pocket computer? So tell me why you can install a computer os on a smartphone. and tell my why there is android laptop? Do you really want that I bring the official definition for computer?

I will not do it because I don't underestimate you and

this concept is really easy to get
And even if he can't explain it, it doesn't mean he can't argue with you in other areas.. I have to say your reaction to this seems a bit irrational. I'm not going to censor you by locking this thread, but maybe you cool down for a while Kiga.
I didn't say that because of this I said that because he said that I am "delusional" without arguments, so yes he can't argue with me.

Well, I'm not going to argue more about that because Numbers talked for me and I have nothing to prove. But IMO the ones who should calm down is the ones who argues without proof, that's why I said without offence that they should shut up forever about that unless they have proof because I didn't tried to argue with them when they was claiming that a sparse amount of people blablabla, I went to search for some proof.
 
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So that make the smartphone very different from a pocket computer? So tell me why you can install a computer os on a smartphone. and tell my why there is android laptop? Do really want that I bring the official definition for computer?


So how about an analogy, It's like the difference between Hiking shoes and running shoes, not the difference between gloves and shoes. While both are shoes but, they're geared for different applications..  What is hard to get?
 
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The reason I say that you are delusional is that you apparently are completely unable even to read your own numbers. You make a poll, the poll does not show what you want, so you add the numbers of other categories and go "The numbers don't lie!!!" - Really? Really?!?

No, I can't argue with you, because you are way beyond rational. If you point to numbers that are right in front of you, proclaim that they show the opposite of what they actually do, and then go "So you can't argue with me, because Numbers!!!", then I can only conclude that you are delusional: You see things that don't exist. 

You also proclaim yourself to be a master of debate, whilst obviously not being able to read and understand basic arguments. Same thing here.

So no, I can't argue with you. I completely agree.
 
So how about an analogy, It's like the difference between Hiking shoes and running shoes, not the difference between gloves and shoes. While both are shoes but, they're geared for different applications..  What is hard to get?
Who chose what we are talking about?

If smartphone are so different from pocket computer, tell me why Moxie for example say that I want Pyra to be some kind of smartphone.

Whether pocket computer is very different from smartphone so their is no need to worry about it being like a smartphones (like I think)

Or it isn't different from a computer and you can worry. (like I think)

Moxie said that it is very different and at the same time that we want to make it to be a smartphone by adding a camera. Which is irrational.

The reason I say that you are delusional is that you apparently are completely unable even to read your own numbers. You make a poll, the poll does not show what you want, so you add the numbers of other categories and go "The numbers don't lie!!!" - Really? Really?!?
Firstly 20% is a lot, also everyone here know what mean sometimes. And I don't say that because I want to have more voice but because I always think about occasionnal users when I was saying "A LOT" but anyway someone who use sometimes is a user so yes I can count it.

You also proclaim yourself to be a master of debate, whilst obviously not being able to read and understand basic arguments. Same thing here.
Never proclaim it, maybe I am a master of debate, I don't think so and I don't care since it's just a bunch of words but I said that Ginrai can't hold a candle with me just for mocking because he pissed me off. But anyway what is bad about thinking that I am a master of debate.
 
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Honestly, I took the "sometimes" vote in that poll to mean "maybe". I think that is more of a flaw in how the poll was constructed (with a lack of options). It makes using the results as a hard argument either way very difficult.
 
Allright, I don't think that this is a flaw, it's because you don't know what you will do. I could have added an option "I don't know" indeed. I think a lot of people didn't vote because they didn't know what they will do, which is also why there is 71 votes. Others decided to go into "sometimes"

Anyway, let's assume that sometimes mean "I don' t know".

Result: 32% of yes

            68% of no

Well that's still more than 1/3, A LOT, and knowing that the majority don't know what they will do (or want to use it sometimes) you can't say like thatgui said that it is a niche which interest only sparse amount of people.
 
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So that make the smartphone very different from a pocket computer? So tell me why you can install a computer os on a smartphone. and tell my why there is android laptop?
Once, when my friend moved flats, we got a supermarket trolley, loaded it full of stuff, and then pushed it to the new flat, unloaded it, returned, filled it, pushed it back, and so on for the better part of a day. Curiously, the trolley didn't turn into a flatbed truck. Similarly, in the scene in The Blues Brothers with the car chase inside the mall, neither the bluesmobile nor the policecars turn into supermarket trolleys, even though they are used in a mall. Funny that.

Are you seriously saying that you do not understand the difference between a desktop-ish computer and a smartphone? Really?

An smartphone is primarily a communications device. As such, it prioritizes certain things. One of them is communications hardware - mic and earpiece placement, headset integration, video en/decoding, and so on. Another is interface integration - it is expected that you'll talk on the phone, and whilst talking you'll need to browse through your emails to check when that meeting was, and transfer that to your calendar, so that you can then book a meeting with the person you're talking to by setting a time and adding the contact details from your adress book. A third is a well-defined stack of interrupt priorities - It is a given that if you play a game, you'll expect it to be interrupted by a notification from your calendar. That, in turn, has less priority than an incoming phone call. All the necessary things for communications - Calendars, Phone software, Text message software - are assumed to be constantly running in the background: You do expect your phone to notify you when a text message comes in - If you "turn on" your text messaging app and find out that you have 10 messages from your girlfriend in the last 3 hours which you didn't get because it was "off", you'd be less than happy. A fourth thing is that a communications device is designed to be used in the public eye, and as such to conform to certain aesthetics and usage patterns. 

All these things are necessary for something to achieve a good smartphone user experience. If something of this is lacking, it will be a severe fault in the devices' usability as a smartphone.

A general computer is a device where I, as a user, is fundamentally in control. I might work on some documents for class, surf the forums, program a game in Python, listen to some music. Sometimes several of these at once. However, what is done when is under the control of the user. If I'm going to concentrate on some code, I close the forum and facebook tabs of the browser, so as not to be interrupted. If I'm going to listen to some music, I switch off all controls and black the screen to save charge. I expect to be able to type fairly conventionally, to be able to handle windows on a desktop (usually, in the modern times) or decide not to have any window system at all. The design of a pocket computer kind of device, then, must allow for this flexibility - in application, in interfacing, in input and output devices, and so on. A computer which interrupts my coding with an unwanted signal is a badly designed computer. A computer which cannot read files from a USB stick, or which cannot display several documents, or which won't allow me to compile and run my own code, is a badly designed computer. 

A gaming device is designed for invisibility, really. The point of a gaming device is to serve as an intermediary between the gamer and the game. The controls must be responsive and positive, and placed in a way that is comfortable for the gamers hands. The screen must be fast enough to render the action without tearing or ghosting. In use, the machine must be dedicated to the game - You do not play two games at the same time, you expect the screen to be filled with this one thing and nothing else to interrupt you until you're done. Technically, it must be predictable in power and power usage - The programmer must reliably know the resources available to the game, so that a section that went through in perfect 50 frames/second in testing does not suddenly lurch down into a slideshow framerate because the device suddenly prioritized something different.

And so on and so forth.

These are very different things, and are designed with very different goals. ED has stated, and most of the community agree (I believe) that the goal here is Gaming Device and (possibly as a slightly second priority) Pocket Computer. That is why we have long, involved discussions about action button placement and scaler chips - Because they are important to the Gaming Device experience. We also have very strong opinions on keyboard layouts, firmware distribution and open drivers - These things are important for the Pocket Computer use case. One might say that the great advantage of the Pandora is that it has managed to strike a good balance between those two use cases - With gaming controls AND usable keyboard, with a desktop distro AND a no-trouble switch into fullscreen gaming, and so on. But you can't add a third use case to the mix and not lose important things from the first two. They are different things.

And the fact that I can install Debian on my phone does not matter - it rather strengthens the argument because, well...it makes it very obvious that the smart phone is very badly built for delivering a good desktop experience. And I can install Android on my netbook, but that does not make my netbook into something that can replace a smart phone - It makes my netbook to be a crippled machine, because the hardware is not designed for the smartphone needs. There are dedicated Android laptops. Do you think they are a reasonable replacement for a smartphone? Of course they aren't - The hardware and the android customisations are not designed for that. The laptop does not become a smartphone any more than the trolley becomes a truck.

Do you really want that I bring the official definition for computer?
Oh, please do. It will be so amusing.
 
Well, I read it but:

According to wiktionnary (the first site I found)

computer (plural computers)

  1. (now rare, chiefly historical) A person employed to perform computations; one who computes. [from 17th c.]
  2. A programmable electronic device that performs mathematical calculations and logical operations, especially one that can process, store and retrieve large amounts of data very quickly; now especially, a small one for personal or home use employed for manipulating text or graphics, accessing the Internet, or playing games or media.

So yes smartphonse are a computer and since it is pocketable it's a pocket computer. It's just a matter of name, what is the xperia play?

But I admitt that Pyra is different from smartphone it's another kind of pocket computer, less specialized and with more gaming capabilities which doesn't interfere with the others computer capabilities unlike smartphone which have phone capabilities which interfere (that's why it is more specialized).

But the problem is that you said that smartphones and pocket computer is very different, you can only say that if you precise that you only count these superficial differences but as we usually only count them on this forum I have assumed that you only count theses superficial differences, but you said at the same time that we want to make it to be some kind of smartphone by adding a camera, by saying that you ignore smarphones' specializations and return to the fact they are all computers.

In brief you chose if we count 100% of these devices or only few percent of difference according to if it promotes your speech or not. But if we take the right parameters we end with the right results which is that I am right.
 
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You're right, that time we are agree. But that's not an important point to me
 
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I still find it a stretch that people , at the very least a significantly amount, took sometimes as "maybe" or "one time", especially with the followup questions.
 

Also note that the poll says "Should the Pyra have a camera", not "Do you want a camera in your Pyra"
 
Some people may be voting yes because they think other people want one and it would boost sales for ED.
Some people may be voting no for the exact opposite reason.
 

So how about an analogy, It's like the difference between Hiking shoes and running shoes, not the difference between gloves and shoes. While both are shoes but, they're geared for different applications.. What is hard to get?
In this case, while they are geared for different applications, you can still hike or run with either one. Kind of different tho.

It's like why get a mp3 player when the Pyra is fully capable of playing music?



 
 
In this case, while they are geared for different applications, you can still hike or run with either one. Kind of different tho.

It's like why get a mp3 player when the Pyra is fully capable of playing music?
So you say you would run 16 miles in clunky Hiking shoes, or try to climb a mountain path in running shoes with no grip?  

Also like why a MP3 player can easily fit in a pocket and can be used easily while walking and the Pandora/Pyra don't quite fit well in a normal sized pocket and audio jack isn't positioned nicely for pocket use.. It is however good for handheld gaming and general portable computing..
 
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So you say you would run 16 miles in clunky Hiking shoes, or try to climb a mountain path in running shoes with no grip?
 Well, not me. lol :p

Also like why a MP3 player can easily fit in a pocket and can be used easily while walking and the Pandora/Pyra don't quite fit well in a normal sized pocket and audio jack isn't positioned nicely for pocket use.. It is however good for handheld gaming and general portable computing..
I don't think a MP3 player size or Pandora/Pyra size is enough of a deterrent, otherwise


phones wouldn't be getting bigger and/or nearly everyone will be carry a MP3 player.


Besides, that's another thing to carry. Doesn't really help with pocket room if you carry both.

Like someone said, that's what L plugs are for. It can be just as good as a MP3 player as well in that case.
 
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Well phones are not striving to be as thick as the Pandora/Pyra.. don't get me wrong I love the Pandora I wouldn't of bought three of them if I didn't, something in the same formfactor of the Pandora just is not geared to be a great phone device.

The Pandora makes an excellent music player with the quality of the audio, it's just not something I would take jogging.
 
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Also note that the poll says "Should the Pyra have a camera", not "Do you want a camera in your Pyra"

Some people may be voting yes because they think other people want one and it would boost sales for ED.
Yes, and some people may be voting "no" because they think it is technically too tricky/risky/expensive for ED, not because they don't want one.

This thread is beating a dead zombie horse.

I think a camera is not an undesirable feature, not really to make it more like a smartphone, but rather to make it more like a laptop.

But it is clear that the Pyra won't have one, and that's certainly not the end of the world.

Maybe it is a feature to consider if and when a successor of the Pyra is designed.
 
Well, I read it but:


According to wiktionnary (the first site I found)

computer (plural computers)

So yes smartphonse are a computer and since it is pocketable it's a pocket computer. It's just a matter of name, what is the xperia play?
...and so your microwave oven is a computer, so if we add a camera and phone capabilities to it, we may dual market it to people who wants to replace their smartphone?

But I admitt that Pyra is different from smartphone it's another kind of pocket computer, less specialized and with more gaming capabilities which doesn't interfere with the others computer capabilities unlike smartphone which have phone capabilities which interfere (that's why it is more specialized).
Indeed. Very good. Some good effort here. Improvement in reading comprehension and summarizing skill

But the problem is that you said that smartphones and pocket computer is very different, you can only say that if you precise that you only count these superficial differences but as we usually only count them on this forum I have assumed that you only count theses superficial differences, but you said at the same time that we want to make it to be some kind of smartphone by adding a camera, by saying that you ignore smarphones' specializations and return to the fact they are all computers.


In brief you chose if we count 100% of these devices or only few percent of difference according to if it promotes your speech or not. But if we take the right parameters we end with the right results which is that I am right.
Writing, however, is still a problem. I suggest summer school. This is incomprehensible.
 
ffs please lock this disaster......its like watching a train wreck. no matter how much i want to stop reading i just have to  keep reading to see how blatantly pigheaded some people can be.

18% some how becomes 20% and is "a lot" well that leaves 4 times "a lot "that dont want it. ( 80%)

ED said no, give it a rest. look at the 3D printed case, there is no room anyway.....
 
I think a camera is not an undesirable feature, not really to make it more like a smartphone, but rather to make it more like a laptop.
Considering laptops would most likely have the camera in the inside, I don't think that's the case.


That said, hopefully the next (if not this one :p ) Pyra or revision have a rear facing camera if not both.

18% some how becomes 20% and is "a lot" well that leaves 4 times "a lot "that dont want it. ( 80%)
What are you talking about?

look at the 3D printed case, there is no room anyway.....
Actually, if you look it, that may not be the case. (See what I did there? :p )

Also, shouldn't some of this phone talk be move to the  "Will you use your Pyra as a phone?" thread?
 
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