Camera Questions - For the people that want a camera.

[WizardStan]

Would be cool if you can just plug it in the USB port, and it has some kind of short flexible arm that you can adjust, which is strong enough to hold the webcam by itself (without harming the USB port). That is, you could put the Pyra on a table and use it like that, or you could sit in a chair or on a bed and hold the Pyra as a handheld and still have the webcam.

I'll probably design and print a new case for this one eventually, with a better clip that hangs on the lid. It came with a clip but it doesn't fit my Pandora lid very well and the Pyra probably even worse.

 

[Grench]

I suspect that this poll is in direct response to this post from me in another thread.

Spoiler

Just going ignore the people who are just here to get under people skins of people trying to find a compromise for a big basic feature of a convergent device. If by usb, so be it, but it has to be in away that isn't a self defeating purpose.

Btw, I think a hard slide on case or even replace the lid with a thicker lid would be the better option.

Give some consideration to how this would have to be implemented.

A camera module can not live in the lid.  There simply is not room for the wiring through the hinge for it.  The only connection going through that hinge is the MIPI signals for the display.  Also, despite looks, the actual volume/thickness of the display area of the case is VERY thin.  There is only enough thickness for the plastic bezel, the screen, the screen backlight/circuit board then the outer lid shell.  I'm betting that if someone got out the calipers on it, there might be 4mm of total 'thickness' there out of the 30mm or so of thickness for the whole device.  There is an illusion of more - but those outside 'wings' that help glare shroud the screen and provide stiffening to the lid don't count.  The camera on your cell phone likely requires 5-7mm of thickness from the board it's surface mounted to to the case edge.  The Pyra likely has all of 0.5-1mm from the lid's backlight circuit board to open air.  So, unless we want to make the lid at least 10mm thick, a camera of any quality simply cannot live there.

It can't be on the bottom/back side of the motherboard.  The SoC board, battery and stylus live between there and the back of the case.

It can't be on the top/front side of the motherboard.  The controls, speakers, keyboard all live there.

I have yet to see a vertical edge-mount camera.  If there were such a thing, though, there isn't room on the back - it's full of ports and shoulder buttons.  The front is full with the wireless, SD slots and volume wheel.  Putting it on the left/right side isn't exactly practical either.

The motherboard is -packed-.  No more room for additional features.

The vertical space in the lower case lid (keyboard surround piece) to the left and right of the hinge area might be a theoretical spot - but the shoulder buttons live in most of that.

So, if you're even going to -consider- a camera, where do YOU think that such a feature should live within this already feature-packed device?  Consider that it will need to surface mount AND need ~ 5mm of depth between the case edge it's peeking through and the board it's mounted to.

The Pyra project is too far down the road to add one now, but for a theoretical successor years down the road - where would you even put a camera?

Quite simply, there isn't room for this feature and, frankly, the majority would rather not have it.

The Pyra is already going to be close enough to not matter to 30mm thick.  That is 3 modern smartphones stacked on top of each other.  It is already NOT svelte.  It can not be any thicker and still fit into a pocket - it is already too thick for that for most people.

A camera is not a 'thin' component.  It generally requires a surface mount directly onto a motherboard, then the sensor mounts to that then the focusing optics then the lens then the lens cover/surround that the lens rides in as it mechanically moves in/out to provide focus.  Smartphones have developed cameras that are 'thinner' but even the crappiest, thinnest screen-side cameras are still 3-4 mm tall.

Incidentally, this also means that it is the camera component that dictates the thickness of your smartphone.  Manufacturers have made phones where the camera's bulge sticks out several mm past the case - and been criticized for it.

Now that we have established that there simply is no place on the Pyra to practically fit a 5mm tall surface mount camera feature, we have this poll.  Note that the camera modules that were linked to in the initial message are 30mm X 30mm circuit boards with cameras 5-50 mm tall.  They are commercial systems components and are not even remotely practical for this application.

The only practical camera modules I could find are at least 5mm tall surface mount components.  That means they need 5mm between the board they're mounted to and the case edge.  I'm sure that the phone manufacturers can get somewhat thinner ones - but I doubt we're going to find one thinner than 3mm.

The Pyra lid's backlight board might have 2mm in one direction - but that would be directly through the screen and that isn't going to work.  Out on the edges where the screws are it's only about 3mm thick total.

A camera mounted in the base where the keyboard area is would always be looking up your nose - not exactly the best video conference angle.

A camera mounted on the front edge where the SD slots are is either going to focus on your gut or toes.  Again, not practical.  Plus this would require a 90* angle camera - which I have not found an example of.

A camera mounted on the back edge where the ports are is possibly going to be facing forward or skyward.  Possibly practical.  Unfortunately it would also require a 90* angle camera - which I have not found an example of.

A camera mounted on the bottom would require a hole through the battery, a smaller battery, loosing the stylus or similar.  It wouldn't be overly practical without the Pyra opened to 170* so the case bottom faces away - which might be usable, but not practical to implement.

The Pyra is already slated to be 10lbs of potatoes in a 5lb bag.  It's VERY densely packed.

So, just WHERE do you think you could even theoretically mount a camera?  If it's going to 'replace another feature', which camera module would you use in that position?  I don't think there are any actual practical options for this.

 

[Natsu]

I always been curious. We have a whole another thread for that, why bring this here? Can you at least cut all this in put it in the other thread?

 

[Grench]

I always been curious. We have a whole another thread for that, why bring this here? Can you at least cut all this in put it in the other thread?

No.  Why?  Because THAT post and that collection of facts is WHY this poll exists and WHY you're asking people what component they're willing to sacrifice for a camera.

So, let's get specific without voiding basic physics (two structures cannot inhabit the same physical space).  Exactly WHICH camera module do you think you can mount WHERE, even if you sacrifice a component to do it?  Find one that could even theoretically fit somewhere into this device.  

To the best of my knowledge there simply is not one that will physically work in any position that is remotely practical.  With the Pyra already ~30mm thick, making it thicker is NOT remotely practical.  That it fits into a pocket IS a design requirement.

You simply seem to want people to ignore this physical reality and vote as if it were possible.  Find a way to make it possible THEN figure out if people are interested in the sacrifice or trade off.

 

[Natsu]

Anymore off topic will be ignored.

I like your poll, Natsu. You've picked your desired data set and are specifically testing for it. The outcome will yield some good information even if it only serves to satisfy a curiosity. Maybe it'll be useful in coming up with mod ideas?

Anywho, I want an internal facing camera for video chatting and I bought a cheap small webcam for that purpose. It won't be useful on bus trips and such where I'm just carrying it in my pocket but when I make longer trips and stay in a hotel keeping it in my luggage is no problem.

Thank you for not being at my throat and trying to turn this into a thread that we already had/have. Do you also think I should add "no camera" even tho it isn't directed at them?

That's exactly what I want too. Something that can be used to video chat from a hotel room. Doesn't need to be extremely compact.

Would be cool if you can just plug it in the USB port, and it has some kind of short flexible arm that you can adjust, which is strong enough to hold the webcam by itself (without harming the USB port). That is, you could put the Pyra on a table and use it like that, or you could sit in a chair or on a bed and hold the Pyra as a handheld and still have the webcam.

Why is the inside more wanted than the outside? All I read is video chatting? Is there any other reason? Why is video chatting seems to be more value than actually taking pictures?
Link

This the closest thing, but I do not know the quality and reliability of it.

 

[levi]

I have deleted my votes to avoid confusion.  Perhaps if the title somehow indicated that the poll is only for those who want a camera in their Pyra, some of this could be avoided, although I am at a loss right now on what to put in its place.

 

[WizardStan]

Perhaps if the title somehow indicated that the poll is only for those who want a camera in their Pyra

You mean like if it said "for the people that want a camera"?

Why is the inside more wanted than the outside? All I read is video chatting? Is there any other reason? Why is video chatting seems to be more value than actually taking pictures?

I consider it as an outer camera for taking pictures would be adding a bonus feature. An inner camera would not just be adding a bonus feature but enhancing an existing feature, that of wireless communication.

 

[Natsu]

Should I deleted "Waiting for an alternative" on the poll, should I simple put "no"?

 

[Grench]

Should I deleted "Waiting for an alternative" on the poll, should I simple put "no"?

How about a disclaimer that, "None of the options listed in this poll may actually be physically possible.  For those few options that may theoretically be physically possible, the needed component/camera may not actually exist in the form/format to make that possible."

 

[Natsu]

Should I deleted "Waiting for an alternative" on the poll, should I simple put "no"?

 How about a disclaimer that, "None of the options listed in this poll may actually be physically possible.  For those few options that may theoretically be physically possible, the needed component/camera may not actually exist in the form/format to make that possible."

Doesn't answer my question. If you are so sure of yourself, why are you even here?
Stop mucking up the thread.

 

[klapse]

Your thread sucks because there will not be a camera.

 

[Grench]

Your thread sucks because there will not be a camera.

And that in a hypothetical world in which there could even theoretically be a camera, no actual viable placement or hardware options have been presented.  

The pro-camera argument is centered entirely around the mistaken belief that one could simply be squeezed in someplace or displace a less needed component (port).

The Pyra has 3 PCBs.  The distance from the lid PCB to the outer skin of the lid is too small for a camera feature.  The keyboard/ports/motherboard PCB is -packed-.  The only direction that it could reach an outside case skin to to mount a camera is straight up through the keyboard and controls (much like the microphone does), which would result in a camera looking at your thumb or up your nose or your thumb up your nose - none of which is preferable.  The 3rd PCB is the SoC board which was so packed and dense it had to be made 10 layer - plus it has the motherboard on one side of it and a battery on the other.

Displacing a port would require a 90* angle surface mount camera that as far as I can tell has never been designed or built for any purpose, replacing any edge-facing surface mounted port or feature isn't really an option.

So - since there are a few trolls people hell bent on sustaining a claim that lack of a camera is a material deficiency in the Pyra, I'm calling them out.  Physically where do you think a camera module would even -fit-?  Exactly -which- camera module would fit there?

Until you can answer those two questions, this whole thread and 90% of the other ones are simply pointless.

 

[Natsu]

If you had kept this in the other thread, I would keep talking about it, but since you want to act like a hard headed troll, I'm treating you as one. Like I said, go into the appropriate thread or I'm going to ignore you, like I said I was.

 

[DaMummy]

Hardheaded means not accepting something that is, or in this case isn't happening.

 

[levi]

I'm going to ignore you, like I said I was.

 

[Natsu]

Man, a fair amount of jerks in this community. This thread is not for them and they still persist in this thread. I even tried to direct them to the other thread. Haven't block anyone before in any forum, but I may have to start now.

 

[_wb_]

Hardheaded means not accepting something that is, or in this case isn't happening.

To be fair, the third question in this poll is: "Sadly, we aren't getting a built-in camera (yet ), are you fine with using the USB?"

So it looks to me that Natsu knows well enough what is and what isn't happening.

I think this poll is useful. Not to somehow try to get a camera built in into the Pyra -- it's too late for that, there's no room, etc, no need to repeat all those reasons. But who knows, maybe at some point in time there could be a Pyra successor, or someone might want to design an alternative case for the Pyra that is significantly bulkier and has room for a camera.

 

[Grench]

Title reads:

Camera Questions - For the people that want a camera.

Should read:

Camera Questions - For the people that want the impossible.

Or:

Camera Questions - For the people that ignore the 3rd dimension.

Or:

Camera Questions - For the people that don't care about reality.

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of telling a good story about how the "anti camera trolls" are spoiling the thread.

 

[Luke-Jr]

A camera module can not live in the lid.  There simply is not room for the wiring through the hinge for it.  The only connection going through that hinge is the MIPI signals for the display.

But it doesn't even rotate!

Also, despite looks, the actual volume/thickness of the display area of the case is VERY thin.

Too thin is bad. Makes it delicate

I have yet to see a vertical edge-mount camera.  If there were such a thing, though, there isn't room on the back - it's full of ports and shoulder buttons.  The front is full with the wireless, SD slots and volume wheel.  Putting it on the left/right side isn't exactly practical either.

How about having it pop out on the left/right and rotate to face either forward/backward direction?

The motherboard is -packed-.  No more room for additional features.

It's got more space than a typical smartphone, yet less features...

So, if you're even going to -consider- a camera, where do YOU think that such a feature should live within this already feature-packed device?  Consider that it will need to surface mount AND need ~ 5mm of depth between the case edge it's peeking through and the board it's mounted to.

The lid should ideally have this space regardless of whether there's a camera or not in it.

The Pyra is already going to be close enough to not matter to 30mm thick.  That is 3 modern smartphones stacked on top of each other.  It is already NOT svelte.  It can not be any thicker and still fit into a pocket - it is already too thick for that for most people.

Why does it need all that space, when it does less than 1 modern smartphone?

 

[FaeMinx]

^ You can't be serious dude?