Should Pyra have a Camera?

Should Pyra have a Camera?

  • Yes

    Votes: 111 43.0%
  • No

    Votes: 147 57.0%

  • Total voters
    258

Well, if you want it the easy way, I can help. Here is the easy way:


* ED does not want to put a camera on.


* Most people do not want to put a camera on.


* A camera of any appreciable quality adds a lot of technical complexity, both hard- and softwarewise.


* There really is no space for a camera in the case/lid.


So, the easy way: Forget about it. Accept that it won't happen
So, in other words the Moxie way. Here is how not to do it:


* He is making for customers, not himself. I don't think his against the camera itself anyway.


* Most while dropping nearly 1/2 set of people who does want it.


* Pandora/Pyra wouldn't even exist with that attitude. These modules aren't even that big. Link Link


* You don't know that. If there really isn't room then fine.

Let's not do the Moxie way and be vocal like everyone doing with everything else until the end or regret

otherwise.
 
Well, I've been one click away of locking this thread if the same debate gets rehashed over and over.. We get the point.... A good portion of people want a camera, a good portion could live without it.. There are real and important reasons why a camera is tough and impractical to implement, some people want it any way.. what else is their to add to this conversation?
 
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Well, I've been one click away of locking this thread if the same debate gets rehashed over and over.. We get the point.... A good portion of people want a camera, a good portion could live without it.. There are real and important reasons why a camera is tough and impractical to implement, some people want it any way.. what else is their to add to this conversation?
Fair enough.
 
I will reply to these, just once more.
 

So, in other words the Moxie way. Here is how not to do it:

* He is making for customers, not himself. I don't think his against the camera itself anyway.
 
Well, he has said that he isn't going to put a camera in. I won't go on a post hunt for you, but this whole poll/tread/debacle did start as an attempt to sway him, after all...
 

* Most while dropping nearly 1/2 set of people who does want it.
 
No. This is a poll started in an attempt to influence EDs position on putting a camera into the Pyra. As such, you would assume that people on the board that do care about getting a camera would join in and try to raise the "yes" bit. You would assume that those who really don't care would mostly roll their eyes and, well, not care. That means that in the general case, the numbers ought to be stacked in favour of "Yes". And still, even amongst those that actually give a cows' ear about the camera, the "No" side wins. That is not "Dropping half the people who wants it", that is noting that a crapload of people don't care either way, and amongst those who do, the negative are in majority.
 

* Pandora/Pyra wouldn't even exist with that attitude. These modules aren't even that big. Link Link
 
Wrong again. The Pyra does not exist (yet), so that position is pointless. The Pandora does exist precisely because of the reverse attitude - To carefully weigh costs (monetary, technical, space and power) against benefits, and decide on whatever makes the most sense for the device in question. We had this exact debate, about the inclusion of a camera or not, already with the Pandora (unless I'm completely senile). There where some supporters and some gainsayers, and in the end the team decided not to have one. Just as other aspects of the Pandora was weighed with pros and cons - Notably stuff like the keyboard, SD card sizes and slots, and so on.  The Pandora exists because the team decided to not give in to featuritis, but to decide on a configuration of features that they could handle for design, power and cost constraints. Given the hardships along the way, I'm fairly confident in my prediction that had the team decided to adopt a camera and a GSM connection too, the Pandora really would not have existed today.
 
No, those modules are not that big in the context of the size of something the size of a laptop, say. In the context of something like the Pandora, they're huge. Particularly considering the stated aim that the lid part on the Pyra will be thinner, and that the screen should fill out more of it. Go on, make a little cardboard cutout, hold it along the Pandora lid and try to figure out where to put it? Now do the same while pretending the screen goes to within 5 mm of the edge of the lid?
 
And that is of course you ignoring the technical and economical aspects, too. A camera module costing $25 in volume, plus added development and manufacturing costs, plus taxes and margins?
 

* You don't know that. If there really isn't room then fine.
 
Let's not do the Moxie way and be vocal like everyone doing with everything else until the end or regret
otherwise.
It has been stated, several times, by ED and others, that there is no space for it. Once again I am certain that you are able to find the posts for yourself if you'd really want to.

The problem, I think, is that a few people (You and Kiga being amongst the most vocal) is envisioning some sort of rather different device. You're really expecting something like a modern smartphone welded to a keyboard and gaming controls. That'd be an interesting device, but the Pyra won't be that (once again there is an ED quote somewhere, that the Pyra will still be first and foremost a gaming device and a pocket computer). Getting the smartphone-with-keyboards-and-gaming-controls together is a much more ambitious undertaking, with a lot higher demands on the engineering and design departments. That would be a reasonable undertaking for a company with an actual engineering department, and a design department. For an outfit where the departments are more or less a bunch of hats worn by the same people at different times, that would indeed be a project that would most likely ensure that the Pyra not only does not, but will never exist.

And finally: No, I am not saying yous should be quiet. By all means, go on beating this sorry carcass some more rounds, if it rocks your boat. Comradekingu was making a joke about it being a simple matter of a few bouts of soldering, and you wanted something simpler. I told you what would be simpler, nothing more. If you want something simpler, that is the way. If you want something complicated - By all means continue this "until the end". My position, like ThrashyMGs, is that the end was reached long ago, but don't mind me.
 
The problem, I think, is that a few people (You and Kiga being amongst the most vocal) is envisioning some sort of rather different device. You're really expecting something like a modern smartphone welded to a keyboard and gaming controls. That'd be an interesting device, but the Pyra won't be that (once again there is an ED quote somewhere, that the Pyra will still be first and foremost a gaming device and a pocket computer). Getting the smartphone-with-keyboards-and-gaming-controls together is a much more ambitious undertaking, with a lot higher demands on the engineering and design departments. That would be a reasonable undertaking for a company with an actual engineering department, and a design department.
That's not true. I am envisioning nothing but a pocket computer. I don't like smartphone, I had one long time ago when I was about the only one who have one but now I have a nokia 101 dual sim without camera.

All I want is the Pyra to be able to do as many as possible, I also think about marketing and the fact that some people could see in Pyra a way to replace their smartphone, and as the poll proved that A LOT of people would want to use it instead of their smartphone at least sometimes I think that I am not wrong. Some people are afraid because they don't want the Pyra to be a smartphone, why are you so obsessed by smartphone?

Why rather don't you think that every computer (laptop) have a camera nowadays? The Pyra is a computer and camera would be even more useful, it's obvious that some people ask for it.
 
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The problem, I think, is that a few people (You and Kiga being amongst the most vocal) is envisioning some sort of rather different device. You're really expecting something like a modern smartphone welded to a keyboard[...]
That's not true. I am envisioning nothing but a pocket computer. [...] I also think about marketing and the fact that some people could see in Pyra a way to replace their smartphone [...]

Yes. That is exactly what I mean. A device that could be seen or marketed as something to replace a smartphone. That is a very different kind of thing from a gaming device and pocket computer.
 
 A device that could be seen or marketed as something to replace a smartphone. That is a very different kind of thing from a gaming device and pocket computer.
Can you explain me how smartphone is very different from a gaming device and pocket computer?

I'm saying that people could see it as a way to replace their smartphone, I'm not saying that it would have to be written on the website, but people who want to buy that kind of device read some forum, review etc.

Anyway it is obvious that Pyra will always be an umpc and a gaming device since it have controllers and would be harder to use than a phone. People who don't need controller and extra computer features will buy a smartphone :rolleyes:
 
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Well, I have to reply to this. Don't worry, I'm pretty much done after this.
 

Well, he has said that he isn't going to put a camera in. I won't go on a post hunt for you, but this whole poll/tread/debacle did start as an attempt to sway him, after all...
I don't think he actually said why himself. Basically what I'm saying is, that he not against the camera itself, but the situation/obstacle around it. Which I hope he can overcome.
 

No. This is a poll started in an attempt to influence EDs position on putting a camera into the Pyra. As such, you would assume that people on the board that do care about getting a camera would join in and try to raise the "yes" bit. You would assume that those who really don't care would mostly roll their eyes and, well, not care. That means that in the general case, the numbers ought to be stacked in favour of "Yes". And still, even amongst those that actually give a cows' ear about the camera, the "No" side wins. That is not "Dropping half the people who wants it", that is noting that a crapload of people don't care either way, and amongst those who do, the negative are in majority.
Nothing you said goes against the fact that would be dropping nearly 1/2 the people who wants it. I like how you know how many people care from a Yes and No poll. Not that's negative towards a camera.

Besides, we don't know the reason behind the Nos. Some could be nothing circumstantial like paranoia nonsense.
 

Wrong again. The Pyra does not exist (yet), so that position is pointless. The Pandora does exist precisely because of the reverse attitude - To carefully weigh costs (monetary, technical, space and power) against benefits, and decide on whatever makes the most sense for the device in question. We had this exact debate, about the inclusion of a camera or not, already with the Pandora (unless I'm completely senile). There where some supporters and some gainsayers, and in the end the team decided not to have one. Just as other aspects of the Pandora was weighed with pros and cons - Notably stuff like the keyboard, SD card sizes and slots, and so on. The Pandora exists because the team decided to not give in to featuritis, but to decide on a configuration of features that they could handle for design, power and cost constraints. Given the hardships along the way, I'm fairly confident in my prediction that had the team decided to adopt a camera and a GSM connection too, the Pandora really would not have existed today.
That's one way to look at it. Another way is that they could have looked at the costs and work then decide not started the project at all. I'm pretty sure a camera wouldn't made Pandora history much different.

Besides, it was a different time. Makes much more sense to have these things nowadays and

to even make the Pyra better than it predecessor.

No, those modules are not that big in the context of the size of something the size of a laptop, say. In the context of something like the Pandora, they're huge. Particularly considering the stated aim that the lid part on the Pyra will be thinner, and that the screen should fill out more of it. Go on, make a little cardboard cutout, hold it along the Pandora lid and try to figure out where to put it? Now do the same while pretending the screen goes to within 5 mm of the edge of the lid?

And that is of course you ignoring the technical and economical aspects, too. A camera module costing $25 in volume, plus added development and manufacturing costs, plus taxes and margins?
 
It has been stated, several times, by ED and others, that there is no space for it. Once again I am certain that you are able to find the posts for yourself if you'd really want to.
I wasn't talking about that specific camera for the lid other than the beginning when I don't know how big the lid was. If it really needs to go on the lid,not that I think it does, it can protrude. I like how you didn't mention the base. As in, specifically mention the place with the least room.  :lol:   

It can either point down or to the back of the base.
 
Things cost money.
 
Seriously tho, it goes as lows as 2 (5 for 8mp) to 100 to 1000 units for the cheapest unit price.
There's the 100 option to be on the safe side demand wise. Yes, it will cost more money, but
I didn't think cost as much more as need be.
 
I didn't think ED specially said there's not room, especially for the base. Everyone else, including the people who want the camera, are going under the assumption.
 

The problem, I think, is that a few people (You and Kiga being amongst the most vocal) is envisioning some sort of rather different device. You're really expecting something like a modern smartphone welded to a keyboard and gaming controls. That'd be an interesting device, but the Pyra won't be that (once again there is an ED quote somewhere, that the Pyra will still be first and foremost a gaming device and a pocket computer). Getting the smartphone-with-keyboards-and-gaming-controls together is a much more ambitious undertaking, with a lot higher demands on the engineering and design departments. That would be a reasonable undertaking for a company with an actual engineering department, and a design department. For an outfit where the departments are more or less a bunch of hats worn by the same people at different times, that would indeed be a project that would most likely ensure that the Pyra not only does not, but will never exist.
Pretty much Kiga is saying without the "I hate the smartphone" part.
 
Where is it that adventure games can/can't be successful? The market here is over-saturated w/ FPSes currently, but I don't think that Adventure games see a barrier to success here.
I did not say that adventures can't be successfull in other countries, but that they are "very" successfull around here, and at least some people in the U.S. (just a guess, don't know if you live there) seem to have the same impression, like Tim Schafer.
Yea, but just because they will use it more often at home doesn't necessarily mean they will play games. Many of them just browse facebook and do Google searches.
I never said that, what I said is that they may be inclined to invest more time into a game / give the game more attention as the environment is more gaming friendly > like you don't have to be aware which station the train currently passes, so you don't miss the one you have to get out.
Yes, however, it doesn't matter if it isn't advertised. I'm a big lego fan and I had never heard of that app. I haven't seen Lego do anything to advertise it.
The specific application is irrelevant, relevant is that with software other than games the number of ar software that is already there is even higher, and still no ar success story.
Not at all. It's more a matter of the percentage who have tried it who liked it. If only 10k people have tried the game, but 9.5k say it's great, then you've got a good game.
But isn't your point that we don't see ar games beeing a signifcant part of the gaming industry because there is no "good" game that helps to set a steady foot into the market ? But in order to determine a "good" game, according to you a "large number of people" is necessary. Sounds like a chicken and egg problem to me.
If we both think a game is good, but a large number of people don't think the game is good, then in that case, the game is merely a good game "for us", instead of being applicable to a large number of people. While we could still consider this a good game in certain arguments, it would not work for our current discussion, where I have posited that the presence of good games will drive the popularity of the AR genre, because for it to drive the popularity, it needs to appeal to a large percentage of the people who try it.
But you specifically said ".. If the two agree, then it stands..", but this contradicts this - or do I just not get the context right ?

Well, honestly, if you were trying to include the mobile gaming market as a whole, then I can not agree with you on the quality of early games at all. The Gameboy had a large number of good games within the first 2 years (1989-1990) of its release:
"Game and Watch" devices that came before where also very successfull, despite the rather "limited" gaming experience. And I never said that there weren't good/successfull games available, but they were sparse, and compared to stationary system they were usually of lower quality > like "Super Mario Land" for the Gameboy and "Super Mario Bros 3" for the NES.

...and as the poll proved that A LOT of people would want to use it instead of their smartphone at least sometimes I think that I am not wrong's obvious that some people ask for it.
Please compare the number of votes to other polls, and reevaluate how "popluar" that topic really is (and compare the numbers of your poll, where only 13 out of 71 said yes, 28 said no no and another 32 practically said "maybe").
 
Please compare the number of votes to other polls, and reevaluate how "popluar" that topic really is (and compare the numbers of your poll, where only 13 out of 71 said yes, 28 said no no and another 32 practically said "maybe").
The number of votes? You was saying that "a sparse amount of people" would like to use yra as a phone when it was about 7 people who gave their opinion and now that I made a poll you are saying that there isn't enough? There is a poll and we will refer to it. Also you have to know that 71 is a normal amount of people since this thread was at the top only few days, not even the week-end and since poll which aren't by EvilDragon in "Pyra News" have about 100 voters when it last a long time at the top.

And no it isn't "maybe" but "sometimes". You are not the one who decide how many people want this or what people think, you tried to do it before the poll, you are trying to do it again.

People maked their choice, the poll gave statistics, 13 out of 71 is 18% which is a lot of people and if we include "sometimes" we have 68%. So yes, A LOT of people would want to use their Pyra as a phone (lmfao) and certainly not "a sparse amount" like you was claiming.

I will not discuss further more about that, the numbers talked.
 
And no it isn't "maybe" but "sometimes". You are not the one who decide how many people want this or what people think, you tried to do it before the poll, you are trying to do it again.

People maked their choice, the poll gave statistics, 13 out of 71 is 18% which is a lot of people and if we include "sometimes" we have 68%. So yes, A LOT of people would want to use their Pyra as a phone (lmfao) and certainly not "a sparse amount" like you was claiming.

I will not discuss further more about that, the numbers talked.
Honestly, The "yes"es and "no"s speak for themselves, but the "Sometimes" is a bit vague. You have no idea what their guage is. It could be like WizardStan's sometime, where he will use it occasionally. Or it could be someone voting "sometimes" because they think they will try it once.

-God Ginrai
 
Honestly, The "yes"es and "no"s speak for themselves, but the "Sometimes" is a bit vague. You have no idea what their guage is. It could be like WizardStan's sometime, where he will use it occasionally. Or it could be someone voting "sometimes" because they think they will try it once.

-God Ginrai
I'm pretty sure the majority of sometimes isn't "try it once". Can you even use


sometimes to mean that? :lol: In fact, a quick Google search have

occasionally in the definition.
 
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I'm pretty sure the majority of sometimes isn't "try it once". Can you even use

sometimes to mean that? :lol: In fact, a quick Google search have

occasionally in the definition.
If you have 3 options, one is all the time, one is never, and the other is sometimes, then sometimes becomes the only option that is close to "I'll try it once".

-God Ginrai
 
If you have 3 options, one is all the time, one is never, and the other is sometimes, then sometimes becomes the only option that is close to "I'll try it once".

-God Ginrai
There's also the option not to vote. It's a stretch to believe a significant, if at all, of the votes for sometimes is "I'll try it once". Even then it shows interests.
 
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 Anyway 20% of yes is a lot and "sometimes" also mean yes and even if it is 20% out of 50% of "sometimes", it's still A LOT.

;;
If you have 3 options, one is all the time, one is never, and the other is sometimes, then sometimes becomes the only option that is close to "I'll try it once".
No because there is a difference between trying and using. The question is: will you use it as a phone? Sometimes means "I will use it sometimes", which is far from "I will try it once". If someone wanted to try it once he would have chose "never" because trying isn't using and certainly not using sometimes.

Anyway terms used was clear and the numbers talked, but I'm not suprised that people who was claiming that their opinion was overly prevelent without any proof only according to their mind are now claiming without any proof and according to their mind that people thought "i'll try it once" or "maybe", while they chose sometimes.

If you wanna prove something, make a poll like I did to prove that your assertions was false, but please stop claiming what you think about what people think because no one care.

I'm tired of people always arguing again and again without any proof. Even when you kill their arguments... arguing again and again. If you bring concrete proof... arguing again and again.
 
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If you wanna prove something, make a poll like I did to prove that your assertions was false, but please stop claiming what you think about what people think because no one care.
All I did was claim that sometimes is rather vague, which it is. I made no claim about what the majority of "sometimes" voters were voting. You need to cool off.

-God Ginrai
 
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The number of votes? You was saying that "a sparse amount of people" would like to use yra as a phone when it was about 7 people who gave their opinion and now that I made a poll you are saying that there isn't enough? There is a poll and we will refer to it. Also you have to know that 71 is a normal amount of people since this thread was at the top only few days, not even the week-end and since poll which aren't by EvilDragon in "Pyra News" have about 100 voters when it last a long time at the top.
??????Yes the numbers did talk, but not as you like it. 71 people voted, which is one of the lowest numbers you can get in a poll around here (hell, even the "3g paranoia" poll had more votes). If that does not speak for low interest, what is then? And what lame excuse is that the thread wasn't long enough on top. Don't you think if it was a topic many people are interested in that it would be held up longer ?

And no it isn't "maybe" but "sometimes". You are not the one who decide how many people want this or what people think, you tried to do it before the poll, you are trying to do it again.
As God Ginrai already mentioned, with only "sometimes" inbetween yes and no, the results for sometimes are rather vague. Especially looking at the fact, that for most people it won't be a "do I unlock my phone or do I wakeup my Pyra" decision. It will probably be more like a "do I use my phone, or do I shutdown my phone, take out the sim card, shutdown my Pyra, insert the card into the Pyra, and power it up again" decision. Don't you think that this (and/or the several downsides a Pyra used as phone brings with it - which you repeatedly ignored) wouldn't be an obstacle for people ?
People maked their choice, the poll gave statistics, 13 out of 71 is 18% which is a lot of people and if we include "sometimes" we have 68%. So yes, A LOT of people would want to use their Pyra as a phone (lmfao) and certainly not "a sparse amount" like you was claiming.

I will not discuss further more about that, the numbers talked.
If 18% is a lot in your definition what you call 50% then ? And no one ever denied that there will be some people that would use the Pyra as a phone, but I repeatedly said that it is a niche in a niche, and so resources that would be consumed by ironing that part out should be spent elsewere.
 
People maked their choice, the poll gave statistics, 13 out of 71 is 18% which is a lot of people and if we include "sometimes" we have 68%. So yes, A LOT of people would want to use their Pyra as a phone (lmfao) and certainly not "a sparse amount" like you was claiming. I will not discuss further more about that, the numbers talked.
Wow. I begin to think that you're some kind of delusional. 
 
Wow. I begin to think that you're some kind of delusional.
You still can't arg with me, I'm still waiting for you to explain me how "smartphone is very different from a gaming device and pocket computer".

I proved that I am right. If you guys think that people don't know what mean "Sometimes", open a poll or shut up forever.

Numbers tell the truth, claiming professionals claim
 
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