Should Pyra have a Camera?

[thatgui]

Because that's not a off the wall feature and part of certain devices converging together. :rolleyes:

true, just both are features I have no interest in, but could potentially be usefull

The point is to at least have the features there, not perfectly beat out the phone. We may not be able to

match them performance wise, but we can beat them in features.

Plus specifically for the camera, it just plain out convenient.

I know your opinion about that matter, I am interested in an answer from Kiga, and he specifically mentionend that the Pyra will beat a phone in every aspect in order to strengthen his point of an anonymous group of people favour a Pyra instead of a smartphone.

I wouldn't really say so. The only games I've seen people actually spend a large amount of time on their phones/tablets were either puzzle games, card games, or board games. All the genres where an AR game would actually make sense are normally installed, played for a short period of time, and then abandoned due to no physical controls.

Thats not what I'm observing. There are a lot of people that play the kind of games you mentioned, but there is a also a lot of people that play LBA, Broken Sword 1/2/5, Bastion or the countless Towerdefense games. But the genre/kind does not really matter, as most people I observe in public transport are usually bound to their games for more than 15/20/30mins. But even if it weren't so, wouldn't a success of AR games still be possible especially if they provide a short experience, thus beeing suitabel for a quick "on the go" session ? I guess the biggest problem here is that no one wants to move around a lot as most people tend to play on their smartphones when they haven't much else to do => sitting in public transport, waiting queues, etc.

 

[God Ginrai]

Thats not what I'm observing. There are a lot of people that play the kind of games you mentioned, but there is a also a lot of people that play LBA, Broken Sword 1/2/5, Bastion or the countless Towerdefense games.

I don't know many people who actually play the tower defense games on their phones, outside of Plants vs. Zombies.

As for the other games, I haven't even heard of them, much less seen people play them. Aside from Bastion. I have heard of Bastion, but I don't know anyone who plays it anywhere other than on Steam.

But the genre/kind does not really matter, as most people I observe in public transport are usually bound to their games for more than 15/20/30mins.

It kind of does. Because if all those people are playing puzzle games, card games, or board games, then it is further data that strengthens my point that the genres that AR games tend to be useful in aren't popular.

But even if it weren't so, wouldn't a success of AR games still be possible especially if they provide a short experience, thus beeing suitabel for a quick "on the go" session ?

Oh, certainly this could be possible. However, this can't happen until someone gets an idea for one and attempts it.

I guess the biggest problem here is that no one wants to move around a lot as most people tend to play on their smartphones when they haven't much else to do => sitting in public transport, waiting queues, etc.

I don't doubt that this could become a road block for AR games. However, I believe that there just aren't enough developers attempting them for this to even start to be a problem yet.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

You haven't brought any concept or reflection. I produce some reflection, all you trying to do is invalidate, but you ain't even able to do it.


We reached the point when you will repeat over and over even if you know (unless you are stupid) that I am right. So I'm done with that discussion.

All I have done is given proof that your claims hold no water, and you have steadfastly ignored my opinions, accused me of not reading your posts, or put words in my mouth. No matter how you try to paint this badly for me, no one is going to believe that crap when they can read the topic and see for themselves.

Well, I don't think that someone care about this discussion between me trying to show you that you are wrong and you trying to have the last word.

Why I think it will give a better experience? It will give a far better experience just because of the battery life.


I ain't talking about mainstream. I talk about people who would want to buy the Pyra but will not because they would not see the reason to buy a 600 euros device which they will not use as often as a 600€ smartphone. That's why I think a lot of potential new users will think "oh shit why it haven't a camera, well I will buy an android instead".

Ah.. now I get, why smartphones just could not penetrate the mobile phone market over the last years, because people value the battery life over everything.
That whole parapgraph does not make much sense to me at all:


You are talking about a group of people that is not mainstream, but has to decide between a smartphone and a Pyra and eventually buys the smartphone because of the camera ? What decision process is this ? If they are not mainstream they probably give attention to the devices specific capabilities, and weigh them against each other (otherwise they would not be "not mainstream" and probably not even be interested in the Pyra) - hard to believe that the camera will tip the scale - especially if battery life would be an important factor too - which I doubt as battery life won't be stellar anyway.

The balance between chosing the smartphone for his form or chosing the Pyra for his features is tight. Pyra would be a full "all-in-one" against a not full for the smartphone and people who would chose the Pyra  would make it for the"full", if Pyra haven't a camera it would loose his status of "full"  agains the smartphone. So yes camera is a big deal but I'm not sure that everyone are able to understand what I'm saying without explaining further.

If Pyra have a camera, people will be able to think "yes it's 600 euros but it will replace my smartphone and do whatever a smartphone can do better with a real battery life".

Would you mind answer my question, why will the Pyra perform better in every aspect than a smartphone ?
;

That's a fact. Pyra do it all better and have more features. I ain't talking about the form. I don't think that the form will stop someone who can carry a smartphone + a Pyra.

 

[God Ginrai]

Well, I don't think that someone care about this discussion between me trying to show you that you are wrong and you trying to have the last word.

 No, someone who was trying to show me that I was wrong would actually prepare their argument and back it up with solid logic and/or evidence. This is something that many of the people who have posted in this topic do, but something that you do not.

If Pyra have a camera, people will be able to think "yes it's 600 euros but it will replace my smartphone and do whatever a smartphone can do better with a real battery life".

Would you mind answer my question, why will the Pyra perform better in every aspect than a smartphone ?;

That's a fact. Pyra do it all better and have more features. I ain't talking about the form. I don't think that the form will stop someone who can carry a smartphone + a Pyra.

He already knows that you think the Pyra will do everything better. He wants to know why you think the Pyra will do everything better.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

He already knows that you think the Pyra will do everything better. He wants to know why you think the Pyra will do everything better.

I think we are pretty agreed on that, the point we ain't agree is the form, that's why he said "in every aspect" and as I said I ain't talking about the form. And if we aren't agreed, well i'm tired of that topic if someone can't understand why Pyra have better features than a smartphone by himself I think he can't understand my reflection either so I'm not going to explain.

Well, I don't think that someone care about this discussion between me trying to show you that you are wrong and you trying to have the last word.

 
No, someone who was trying to show me that I was wrong would actually prepare their argument and back it up with solid logic and/or evidence. This is something that many of the people who have posted in this topic do, but something that you do not.

My arguments are solid but since you decided to ignore them and repeat same arguments as I didn't proved earlier that they are wrong I will not continue. I will not play that game with you, we all know that you'll never stop till you have the last word, I read one time that you struggled on till the last post on a gp2x forum long thread, I admitt that you are the best at that game (lmfao) even if you can't hold a candle with me when it comes to debate.

 

[God Ginrai]

I think we are pretty agreed on that, the point we ain't agree is the form, that's why he said "in every aspect" and as I said I ain't talking about the form. And if we aren't agreed, well i'm tired of that topic if someone can't understand why Pyra have better features than a smartphone by himself I think he can't understand my reflection either so I'm not going to explain.

So in other words, if he doesn't just assume the Pyra will do everything better than a smartphone, then he is also someone who "ignores your arguments" and "repeats the same arguments"?

repeat same arguments

Pyra would be a smartphone killer since it can do all a smartphone better and with enough battery, except... a camera.

yes Pyra can do all a smartphone can do better (instead of camera) and longer so it's a smartphone-killer in features

And yet the only time you tried to do explain why a Pyra would be better:

And?

You could carry a Pyra and have both great phone and gaming experience without bother yourself with 2 big devices. You could play games calling (even videocalling with camera) your friends, you could write your sms easily with the keyboard etc... Videocalling or skype would be much more usable than with a smartphone or a tablet since you can just pose it on a table and enjoy. The only feature Pyra will not have is vibrator but you could buy a vibrator bluetooth headset or a smartwatch. All that with a big battery!

The only feature smartphone have and Pyra will not have is camera and that's what we want.

I responded, addressing each of your issues (with the exception of the vibrator and the sms, because the vibrator was actually a con for the Pyra and the SMS comment actually made sense):

Damn you must have some heavy-duty rose-tinted glasses. The Pyra would be bulky to use as a phone, it would be very awkward to hold while making calls, and that battery will not last long if you are playing games while on a phone call using a bluetooth headset. Also, videocalling is another thing that is more of a pipe dream than anything. All of the video-calling solutions on phones, including skype, are proprietary. The only way you would get any of that is if we found a way to get the skype android application to run on the Pyra.

I will not play that game with you, we all know that you'll never stop till you have the last word, I read one time that you struggled on till the last post on a gp2x forum long thread, I admitt that you are the best at that game (lmfao) even if you can't hold a candle with me when it comes to debate.

All you have tried to do in your comments to me in your past 3 posts have been to try to defame me. You are trying to suggest that I am trying to play some game with you, but all I have done is supply reasons and evidence that are in opposition to your beliefs.

You act like I'm ignoring the fact that you plan to get a feature phone, but I addressed that fact and even gave you an out so you could back away from the argument gracefully:

I may will take a features phone, maybe something like a card phone. But what I defend on that topic is that a lot of potential users would want to replace their smartphone by the Pyra because it's perfectly feasible.

Then you are defending against the wrong person. I never said that it wasn't feasible to use the Pyra as a phone. I said it would be awkward and wouldn't provide the same quality of experience that a normal phone would.

If you continue to accuse and insult me, I will have no qualms about reporting you to the moderators.

-God Ginrai

 

[moxie]

even if you can't hold a candle with me when it comes to debate.

*ROFL*

 

[Kiga]

All you have tried to do in your comments to me in your past 3 posts have been to try to defame me. You are trying to suggest that I am trying to play some game with you, but all I have done is supply reasons and evidence that are in opposition to your beliefs.

We could be arguing again and again now because I could respond to your arguments in these 3 posts, but what you do look like sophism to me. I don't even read your last post honestly. I understood your arguments: You need a common dialing experience. Thanks for your opinion it is very irrelevant to me but I respect it.

I apologize because what I think about what you do is off-topic, and maybe you don't do that intentionally, I had to ignore since the first time you maked me repeat (which is very boring to me).

 

[God Ginrai]

Kiga, the fact that you don't read my posts but somehow insist that we all read yours (when normally, we did) is the reason why you get these kinds of responses to what you say:

even if you can't hold a candle with me when it comes to debate.

 *ROFL*

-God Ginrai

 

[Natsu]

I responded, addressing each of your issues (with the exception of the vibrator and the sms, because the vibrator was actually a con for the Pyra and the SMS comment actually made sense):

-God Ginrai

About the vibrator. As long as it isn't too strong, I think the Pyra would be alright.

 

[God Ginrai]

About the vibrator. As long as it isn't too strong, I think the Pyra would be alright.

His comment was that the Pyra didn't have a vibrator. He then suggested that it could be remedied by getting a smartwatch or a bluetooth headset. That means it was a con, for which these alternatives would cover.

You would have been better off making that comment in response to my earlier comment that I made here:

It better not. Anything that causes shaking or vibration in a handheld is more likely to cause failure in the device. The only reason phones can get away with it is because everything is so tightly packed in the case. This would not be the case for something like the Pyra, and is likely to be detrimental to it.

As far as the "strength" of the rumble: Sure, if it was weaker, it would put less stress on the Pyra, but it would still be putting a lot more stress than having no rumble. Moving parts are one of the largest causes of hardware failure, and I would be immensely frustrated if rumble were included in the Pyra.

-God Ginrai

 

[Natsu]

About the vibrator. As long as it isn't too strong, I think the Pyra would be alright.

His comment was that the Pyra didn't have a vibrator. He then suggested that it could be remedied by getting a smartwatch or a bluetooth headset. That means it was a con, for which these alternatives would cover.

You would have been better off making that comment in response to my earlier comment that I made here:

So, you knew actually what I was referring to, yet still went off at a tangent away. :mellow:

As far as the "strength" of the rumble: Sure, if it was weaker, it would put less stress on the Pyra, but it would still be putting a lot more stress than having no rumble. Moving parts are one of the largest causes of hardware failure, and I would be immensely frustrated if rumble were included in the Pyra.

-God Ginrai

You don't have to use it.

 

[God Ginrai]

So, you knew actually what I was referring to, yet still went off at a tangent away. :mellow:

No, I thought you were claiming that the vibrator wasn't a con if it wasn't too strong. I went and found my post for you, because I thought that your comment would be a better argument for it. But seeing as how you didn't respond to it even though I made it two days ago, I did not assume that you were trying to respond to it.

You don't have to use it.

I'd still have to pay extra to include something that can only hurt my device. No thank you.

-God Ginrai

 

[szr]

Hypothetically, a bash script should be able to do something like

arecord -D hw:1,1 | aplay -D hw:2,0 &
arecord -D hw:2,1 | aplay -D hw:1,0 &
echo "ATxxx ###-###-####" > /dev/umtstty
CONNECTED = "1"
while [[ "$CONNECTED" = "1" ]] do
read foo < /dev/umtstty
if [[ "$foo" = "PHONE HANGUP STATUS" ]] then CONNECTED="0"; fi
done
killall aplay
killall arecord

Bash script literally thrown together right now and is definitely broken in several places but that's the gist of the minimum it would take to get started.
A more complete solution would do things like making sure it had reception before dialing, checking the call status before the loop, and just slurping down the buffer probably makes it completely incompatible with using data and GPS while also on a call, but you should get the idea.

I love the concept illustrated by your bash script above. One question though. Why do you say that this would be incompatible with using data (or GPS) ? Wouldn't the data side of things have a virtual network interface (something like ethX, pppX, tunX or something) allocated in order to be able to route traffic in the usual fashion, where as interacting with /dev/umtstty would be a separate thing, mainly voice-side, sending AT commands like in your script? And wouldn't GPS be it's own /dev device?

 

[WizardStan]

One question though. Why do you say that this would be incompatible with using data (or GPS) ?

I'm only guessing but it's the most probable thing. Even for data it still goes through the tty device; there may be some virtual devices wrapped on top of the tty device which hide the details so you can just use them as a network and gps device but they still need to go through the tty.Like, you issue "ifconfig umts01 up" or something like that, and that sends the "start" command to the network device, but ultimately it passes through to the tty to send a ((AT+CGDCONT=1,”IP”,”internet.network.com”)) command. That command responds with an "OK". Same with the GPS, you can just stream from "/dev/gps" or whatever, but the driver still needs to send ((AT+SGPSC="NMEA/output","on")) and wait for an "OK" before the flow starts. If the dialer is just stupidly slurping down everything it might eat the responses, or it could completely fail to open the device and crash my little script.

Basically, while this script probably works, a better solution involves managing requests better, locking the device only to send your command and wait for an "OK", waiting until nothing else is using it, etc...

 

[Yoyobuae]

The network device and GPS device are implemented via drivers, correct? So could a driver also provide easier access to the voice functions? Seems that directly using the tty device is going a bit too low level.

 

[WizardStan]

The network device and GPS device are implemented via drivers, correct?

Maybe, I'm assuming there's something, but there's no guarantee. Everything could be in the same boat of needing to send raw AT commands to get data until such time as someone writes the necessary backend stuff to hide it.

So could a driver also provide easier access to the voice functions?

Of course it could, and for all I know maybe it will be. All I know is the minimums that will be available, the things that absolutely need to exist. Could be Gemalto supplies us with a high level driver, maybe even an easy to use API, or maybe they don't and we need to write it ourselves.

 

[God Ginrai]

So could a driver also provide easier access to the voice functions?

Of course it could, and for all I know maybe it will be. All I know is the minimums that will be available, the things that absolutely need to exist. Could be Gemalto supplies us with a high level driver, maybe even an easy to use API, or maybe they don't and we need to write it ourselves.

That's exactly the point I was making earlier. I don't think we'll be given that driver, and will have to write it ourselves.

-God Ginrai

 

[thatgui]

I don't know many people who actually play the tower defense games on their phones, outside of Plants vs. Zombies.

As for the other games, I haven't even heard of them, much less seen people play them. Aside from Bastion. I have heard of Bastion, but I don't know anyone who plays it anywhere other than on Steam.

That may be just a matter of what is observable in our everday lives, thats what I see using public transport every day. But then again the respective gaming markets are different

It kind of does. Because if all those people are playing puzzle games, card games, or board games, then it is further data that strengthens my point that the genres that AR games tend to be useful in aren't popular.

Thats true, but that was not what I meant - I was getting at how long peoples attention span can be on a mobile device, and that the situation is very different now, with people actually spending more time on such games than 5 min.

Oh, certainly this could be possible. However, this can't happen until someone gets an idea for one and attempts it.

...However, I believe that there just aren't enough developers attempting them for this to even start to be a problem yet.

As said before there are already examples of AR games of different kinds on Android/iOS available for a long time - and even I (have to) use it sometimes when a new Lego catalogue pops up and my children want to see some of the models come to live or one of them wants to test its building skills with "Life of George" - without any real hit on the market. Maybe it needs a "precursor technology" like the upcoming VR glasses hype to pave the way. But even then, the games that could be made will suffer from not beeing able to be used where it would give one the biggest possibilities: the outside world. But who really knows, maybe it will be the next "newold" technology for theme parks like it is with 3D in cinemas now.

The balance between chosing the smartphone for his form or chosing the Pyra for his features is tight. Pyra would be a full "all-in-one" against a not full for the smartphone and people who would chose the Pyra  would make it for the"full", if Pyra haven't a camera it would loose his status of "full"  agains the smartphone. So yes camera is a big deal but I'm not sure that everyone are able to understand what I'm saying without explaining further.

That there are some people that would like to just carry one device and would just use the pyra if they have both isn't something one needs to put a lot of thought into. But the problem is that in order for this to happen people need to get into that situation first.And as said initially they need to have a big interest in benefits the Pyra will be offering for that to happen, to accept the downsides, that are a given if the Pyra is used a phone.

So the question is not "why should people carry both a pyra and a phone" but "why should people buy a Pyra instead of a controller (iCP and such) for a smartphone they probably already have" ?

That's a fact. Pyra do it all better and have more features. I ain't talking about the form. I don't think that the form will stop someone who can carry a smartphone + a Pyra.

Thats no fact at all, and if you can't come up with reasonable arguments to support that claim, thats just another case of "if i say so" and nothing a reasonable decision can be based on.You may not talk about the form (which you did initially) but that is only one side of the coin - you still got the software side, in which I do not really see any point where the Pyra could be superior:

You mentioned typing of short messages - who writes the software that you want to conveniently use ? And even if it would be there, short messages are meant to be short by design, so the time you spend getting the Pyra out opening it up, starting the sms application and eventually start typing probably neglects the win in typing speed - which isn't something that everyone will have - people get used to touchscreens and looking at people (especially woman) in public transport shows that touch typing can be really quick (some weeks ago I even saw one typing blind on their iPhone, how akward is that ?).

So it would be really nice of you to go into detail why it is a "fact".

 

[_wb_]

A pandora will fit in the pockets of a pair of jeans, provided you shop carefully. It does feel like you're smuggling a brick though.

Last time I tried It was grinding the LCD top lid with the base because it was too tight and would push out of the pocket when I sat down. 

How pocketable a Pandora is, depends entirely on the type of clothes you wear. I have no problem at all to fit it in one of the pockets of my jacket, the belly pocket in my sweater, or the pockets in my cargo pants. I like to wear cargo pants with lots of pockets, so I can put my keys in one pocket, wallet in another one, phone in yet another one, Pandora in yet another one, and still have some spare pockets just in case. In my typical outfit (except on hot summer days), I could comfortably fit about 7 or 8 Pandoras simultaneously, although the weight would probably get a bit annoying at that point.

But of course if you wear tight jeans, a t-shirt and no jacket, then a Pandora is not pocketable at all. In some outfits even something as small as a credit card is not pocketable.