Should ED stop delivering units to Craig?

[elwing]

Why wouldn't Craig use iCP profits to deliver Pandoras?   The liability for those outstanding units and refunds are all on his books, even though his iCP and Pandora businesses are separate entities.  I'd like to think he feels an obligation to honor his contracts, but even if he doesn't, it's in his best interest to erase that liability.

My guess would be that OP Ltd & iCP Ltd are different companies and as such one is not responsible for the others debts.

it's not a guess, it's sure, the question is whether something could force craig to invest his personal gain from iCP ltd into the OP ltd or if nothing like that exist... and I suspect the "limited" in OP ltd just mean we're out of luck assuming there's no proven misdeed.

 

[Ian J]

Only Craig's conscience would make him pay for the remaining Pandoras out of iCP profits.

Unfortunately I no longer believe he has a conscience, I would so love to be proved wrong and for Craig to turn up here and rub my nose in it.

 

[Binky]

If Craig no longer has a conscience, why would stopping delivery of pandoras to his customers cause him to give ED the preorder list?

Surely it would just be used as a new way to make ED look bad.

Seen the other way, if Craig has no conscience, why does he demand that ED promise to fulfil all Craig's orders before he gives up his precious list?

 

[ingoreis]

Its difficult for me to choose,but anyway what Craig do and has done wrong,there still wait People like you and me to there Pandora and some of them feels like they where cheated.


The cannot do anything for the Situation.


The other Side is that many Promised Things from Craig not realy or half happen.


Its dubious that Craig dont give all Datas for the Orders to ED,maybe realy lost he the Datas and he shame heself so to cannot say the Truth?


First i voted that ED should stoppen delivering,but will delete my Vote and stay liberal to it.


when you Imagine it realy,the People cannot do many and see that other People have their Pandora.


But i dont trust Craig for now and i say put him from the Pandora Projekt.


Ed is to good for the World,he survived the whole Project for Producing in Germany.


Shur is that more expensive,but it work and when all get their Pandora,will he lower the Costs.


I think its realy hard to say but let Craig go.


He have done much for the Project but now seems the Project is too much for him.


And all waiters,you can pay up little and rescue the whole Project and get your Pandora faster,


or you can upgrade to 1GHZ.


Every Donation help too,but we must realy know how much Pandora realy stay in status to deliver.


When i where one Person who whait for the Pandora,would i upgrade to 1ghz.


Sorry for write errors and grammatical errors,my english is not the best.

 

[Timstertoo]

If Craig no longer has a conscience, why would stopping delivery of pandoras to his customers cause him to give ED the preorder list?

Surely it would just be used as a new way to make ED look bad.

Seen the other way, if Craig has no conscience, why does he demand that ED promise to fulfil all Craig's orders before he gives up his precious list?

Because that would move the liability from him to ED.

That demand doesn't in any way prove he cares about his customers, quite the contrary.

 

[b_o_b]

I voted to stop delivering.

After that, immediately drop prices and give people who can prove they pre-ordered an additional discount financed by donations. Then people pre-ordered might have to invest a bit more money, but they will have a pandora soon. 

The project doesn't have anything to do with Craig anymore and it will definitely increase sales. Seems like the best scenario for investors and Ed.  

 

[may88]

I say no. It's ED's call and he is a decent fellow. Plus those poor buggers still on Craig's queue helped fund the Pandora dream in the first place.

I don't think the community should shaft these guys.

However, I understand the sentiments for wishing ED some prosperity. He's so good that he reminds me of this guy born just over 2000 years ago.

 

[Binky]

However, I understand the sentiments for wishing ED some prosperity. He's so good that he reminds me of this guy born just over 2000 years ago.

If you take the world population in 0AD to be 200 million (according to t'interwebs)

assume that half of those were men --> 100million

Assume that their ages were evenly spread between 0 and 33 years (also about right)

Then there were 3 million male children born 2000 years ago.

If you take 0AD to be +/- 10 years, that's 60million people born roughly 2000 years ago

Many of them were thieves, vandals and fraudsters.

Which one were you referring too?

 

[Timstertoo]

However, I understand the sentiments for wishing ED some prosperity. He's so good that he reminds me of this guy born just over 2000 years ago.

If you take the world population in 0AD to be 200 million (according to t'interwebs)

assume that half of those were men --> 100million

Assume that their ages were evenly spread between 0 and 33 years (also about right)

Then there were 3 million male children born 2000 years ago.

If you take 0AD to be +/- 10 years, that's 60million people born roughly 2000 years ago

Many of them were thieves, vandals and fraudsters.

Which one were you referring too?

Not sure, but I know who would be Pontius Pilate.

 

[elwing]

well to get backon topic, I find it totally innacceptable that ED still does not have this list, but stoping to send pandora will not get ED the list... that would only means we'll never get our pandora at all, is that what do you really want? that's nice of you... shoulden't you leave and go play your pandora somewhere else?

 

[ShleeDragon]

I think ED should continue to the point he's agreed on. but there has to be an endgame. He's said he would ship X units.... how many more are left

ED? could you comment and lock this thread

 

[ingoreis]

Yes thats right,i think too its Time to end this Thread,because it split the Community Freedom.


I renember that ED wrote that Craigs outstanding Pandoras where calculated in his sponsor Buisness Plan.


This Question shouldnt had be asked think i.


Shure there are open Questions and many People where unshure to get their Pandoras,but dont worry.


A real Community hold on togheter and help from People to People.


And when there are stones in our way,these stones finish we all too.


The whole Pandora Project had ever any Problem and in the Moment Ed sayed :now can nothing happen exept a volcano erruption!


was a few days later a big volcano erruption and important Parts delievered weeks later.


So many Problems and the Pandora Project survived ever...


..why? Because ED and the real Community hold together.


I recommend to close this too,because it split the Community.


And again: Craigs outstanding Pandoras where in EDs buisness Plan planed from the beginning with work with sponsors for the Project


We all can bring this to ending,please donate or upgrade your outstanding Pandoras


The Community is on your side and want to help who they can.


Me included

 

[Gruntfuggly]

I find it quite astonishing that you guys are basically calling for a vote on whether or not I should receive my Pandora that I paid for in good faith. If ED is happy to keep sending them out, then please don't encourage him to stop!

 

[Binky]

Isn't it part of the community spirit to allow free discussion?

I vote to keep this thread open.

What about a scheme whereby old preorderers can register with ED (with proof of order - check with Craig?):

They would each be assigned a personal pandora delivery fund

All orderers could put as much (or as little) money into their own fund as they like.

Some profit or donations would be spilt equally across the first 50 (oldest orders first) *

When a PPDF was full (reaches the production cost of a pandora) the pandora is shipped and the next oldest order enters the group

This would allow people to pa the full production cost into their own fund and get an immediate delivery, or wait until your order is one of the oldest remaining and your PPDF will slowly fill itself up.

*the rest of the profits/donations would pay to ship units to people without a PPDF

-

Having a little meter showing how close you are to getting a pandora should encourage people to pay extra, help everyone understand the financial situation and help ease frustration

 

[b_o_b]

I find it quite astonishing that you guys are basically calling for a vote on whether or not I should receive my Pandora that I paid for in good faith. If ED is happy to keep sending them out, then please don't encourage him to stop!

You are talking about a couple of 100 of Euro's. Investors invested 1000's of Euro's to support the project and may never see that money again if the amount of pre-orders are very high and sales low.  If this project fails there might never be a Pandora 2 and that will affect the whole community. It is astonishing nobody thinks about the financial risk the investors took and ED.

 

[Timstertoo]

Isn't it part of the community spirit to allow free discussion?


I vote to keep this thread open.


What about a scheme whereby old preorderers can register with ED (with proof of order - check with Craig?):


They would each be assigned a personal pandora delivery fund


All orderers could put as much (or as little) money into their own fund as they like.


Some profit or donations would be spilt equally across the first 50 (oldest orders first) *


When a PPDF was full (reaches the production cost of a pandora) the pandora is shipped and the next oldest order enters the group


This would allow people to pa the full production cost into their own fund and get an immediate delivery, or wait until your order is one of the oldest remaining and your PPDF will slowly fill itself up.


*the rest of the profits/donations would pay to ship units to people without a PPDF


-


Having a little meter showing how close you are to getting a pandora should encourage people to pay extra, help everyone understand the financial situation and help ease frustration

Not a bad idea. Especially seeing as I'm not the one having to keep the books on this one

I would like to suggest one spin as a discussion point:


If you upgrade you get to hop the queue and get one sent instantly.


More Pandoras out there mean more ambassadors and thus potential snowball effect on sales.


What if the order Pandoras are sent out in get determined by the personal upgrade/donation amount? So the ones who put up the most money themselves get served first as it will take the least money to get the units out there.


It's not as if there is still an honest order of delivery anyway with all the premium and premium premium queues and it should have been impossible that ED's queue ended well before Craigs queue. This is not an attack by the way, I understand ED's reasoning. It's just an observation.


I think this system would get more people to donate and because of that will make it a more viable that all Craigs units get sent out to everyone left, wether they want to pay extra or not.


Would be interesting to see how the amounts get tweaked if ED let's people know which donation amount is up next . If I had donated € 135,- and he says next in line is the € 165,- one I might be inclined to top it up a bit to make sure I'm right behind that one.

 

[Gruntfuggly]

The project has failed - I can't see how 

I find it quite astonishing that you guys are basically calling for a vote on whether or not I should receive my Pandora that I paid for in good faith. If ED is happy to keep sending them out, then please don't encourage him to stop!

You are talking about a couple of 100 of Euro's. Investors invested 1000's of Euro's to support the project and may never see that money again if the amount of pre-orders are very high and sales low.  If this project fails there might never be a Pandora 2 and that will affect the whole community. It is astonishing nobody thinks about the financial risk the investors took and ED.

So you're saying that I should effectively just 'donate' my couple of hundred Euros in order to support the Pandora 2?

 

[Binky]

Here's a similar simpler system:

Reworded:

All donations/profit go to fund the first order on the queue

Anyone can pay extra instead of waiting for some or all of the cost to be made up by donations

Anyone can exchange their place in the queue at any time for a voucher at dragonbox or a refund*

* the voucher/refund being equal to the profit margin on new pandoras + any extra they paid

That way everything is shipped in order of age unless someone wants to pay the full ocst of production

The refund thing works because, if they stayed in the queue, then the profit margin would be spend on making them a pandora. It also allows them to buy a pandora at production costs. ED paying refunds (even if only partial) to Craig customers will negate a lot of bad publicity

 

[b_o_b]

So you're saying that I should effectively just 'donate' my couple of hundred Euros in order to support the Pandora 2?

No, you already lost your money by giving it to Craig. Craig has created the problem, not ED. He is using investors money for something that could be a lost cause..    

 

[moxie]

I find it quite astonishing that you guys are basically calling for a vote on whether or not I should receive my Pandora that I paid for in good faith. If ED is happy to keep sending them out, then please don't encourage him to stop!

Lots of crazy stuff has been discussed on these boards over the years. Most of it has been wisely ignored by both ED and Craig. I find it unlikely that ED would base any such decision upon a forum vote