Screw decisions for assembly


ALL are held together by Philips screws. Why is in thought necessary to use something else? It doesent matter what the head is if the plastic it screws into is too brittle or too thin to take the thread. just my 2c .....
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None of your stuff was designed with any regard to the possibility that a user might want to take the product apart. Except maybe the servers you mention. Which is why they used hex/torx.

There are several pages now explaining why philips screws are inferior to other, equally cheap screws with equally easy-to-find drivers.

The point is that a philips screw requires you to push down while unscrewing, which is a process which will tend to damage the plastic..

As you say, the plastic is important too. I'm hoping ED has got that right.
 
None of your stuff was designed with any regard to the possibility that a user might want to take the product apart.
This may be true, however I think what spud42 was saying is similar to what I was saying earlier.  Just because they weren't designed for the user to open them frequently (and some were) doesn't mean this doesn't happen.  As long as the person is opening it carefully Phillips should be fine.
 
Phillips should be fine.
That's not a valid reason for using it...
True, I guess this entire Thread would not exist if Phillips screws would be fine. :D I hope we get an better solution that does not destroy the screw holes unlike within the Pandora. Not sure how much better the newer Pandoras are but on my old CC Pandora, basicly every screw destroyed their holes, already after 1x CAREFUL opening the case (I had to fix shoulder buttons).  The plastic of the Pandora case was really bad. In combination with the Phillips screws this was even worse. It must be better with the Pyra for sure.
 
Wow, really? I've had my Silver Ghz Pandora open about half a dozen times I think, and the plastic threads are still fine. I did manage to destroy one screw head, as documented before, because it became trapped in the well it sat in. A screw/driver combo that was less likely to cam out might have helped reduct the destruction of the screw head, but ultimately I'd still need to drill it out to free it without breaking the plastic threads.


Perhaps I was lucky that this screw was so obviously stuck that I didn't try to force it too far. The difference between the screws near the stylus holder and the screws under the battery was very clear to me.
 
My computer,mouse,keyboard,camera,printer,two way radio,guitar,headphones,remotes,DVD player HDD enclosure,multimeter  and kids toy helicopter ; which is what i can see from my desk ; ALL are held together by Philips screws.

Why is in thought necessary to use something else?

It doesent matter what the head is if the plastic it screws into is too brittle or too thin to take the thread.  just my 2c .....
Thing is that all those products are probably better designed, screw-wise, compared to Pandora.

Pandora has many problems with it's screws:

  • Screw heads are rather small, it's not easy getting a driver that really fits
  • An obscene amount of torque is necessary to loosen the screws
  • Brittle plastic on some pandoras = threads on plastic get destroyed. Strong plastic = screw head gets destroyed
  • I think maybe the screws are overtightened when Pandoras are first assembled
A small screw head with small phillips type hole means that to apply the necessary torque a lot of force needs to be applied to the inner walls of the hole (because there's less leverage). That combined with the high torque required is a recipe for disaster.
 
I thought that decisions for assembly were screwed.


If this is a real topic? Then YES, make them metal screws.


Metal housing as well....aluminum has some cooling elements.....if we can have some clearance, our boards don't need fans...

Wow, really? I've had my Silver Ghz Pandora open about half a dozen times I think, and the plastic threads are still fine. I did manage to destroy one screw head, as documented before, because it became trapped in the well it sat in. A screw/driver combo that was less likely to cam out might have helped reduct the destruction of the screw head, but ultimately I'd still need to drill it out to free it without breaking the plastic threads.


Perhaps I was lucky that this screw was so obviously stuck that I didn't try to force it too far. The difference between the screws near the stylus holder and the screws under the battery was very clear to me.
I've opened my unit as well - to see if the LCD/screen unit was there.....and I was so stupid, because I was watching the screen play a silly kitty video on Youtube. So it was fine, but I ruined it, when I opened it.


It won't play now, but it did before....


What the fuck is our problem?????(farts)........


Merged - Binky
 
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4 posts in a row. And you insult binky in others threads. Yet he knows where the edit button is. It look like you dont. See who's clueless....
 
4 posts in a row. And you insult binky in others threads. Yet he knows where the edit button is. It look like you dont. See who's clueless....
Whoa, careful there. Grench might attack your every post in other threads for championing the Edit button over multi-posting.

-God Ginrai
 
Still liking the idea of triwings. Even though they're not common people don't have issues with then ( other then losing them) and even if this is for modders or repairs.. having a screwdriver that just straight up works right out of the box for the pyra would be a plus. Not everybody has high quality drivers. Basically I'm saying I'd rather buy a speciality driver for five bucks extra if I need to open my pyra (pray to gods this never needs to happen.). I don't trust Philips or even flathead (pre 1950 flatheads on the other hand haven't had an issue with.). Hexs are okay but they're annoying morst of the time. Torx I dealt with on opening up my cars door panel (outer skin) and they were fine.. but finding that size was pure shit luck... Granted most of my experience and bitching comes from automotive. I seriously wish the engine tin on my bug wasn't held down by torqued Philips and flatheads.. even with giant drivers they strip the heads.

Sent from my Z665C using Tapatalk
 
Last edited by a moderator:
4 posts in a row. And you insult binky in others threads. Yet he knows where the edit button is. It look like you dont. See who's clueless....
Whoa, careful there. Grench might attack your every post in other threads for championing the Edit button over multi-posting.

-God Ginrai
Clearly I've managed to make you feel special.

I'm actually a fan of using multiple postings IFF the topic/thread has multiple conversations and you're replying to distinct threads/ideas/subjects within the topic/thread.  It keeps the individual sub-topics distinct and allows people to skip over the sub-topics they don't care about.

Now, blindly lashing out at someone on topics and conversations they weren't even involved in, that just lacks class.

Back on topic:

Hex (Allen Key) screws with coarse threads into pre-threaded case-plastic pillars is my preference.

Maybe these:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#91292a263/=s5dci3

1.6mm diameter screws.  Stainless steel with nice head caps. 6mm long threads.  Uses a 1.5mm hex driver.

$11.60/100 ~ $0.12 per screw

*10 ~ $1.20 per Pyra

And that's using a very 'high end' screw in relatively low quantities.

The 'tool' to use with them is $0.20 per key, though I'd recommend against including one with the Pyra.  Including it might be interpreted as endorsing people to take the thing apart.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#7289a11/=s5derm

It would be nice to know how many screws of what length and allowance for head cap sizes are planned in the Pyra designs.  Without that we're all just blowing smoke anyway.
 
Clearly I've managed to make you feel special.
 Special is an imaginitive way to describe what you did.

I'm actually a fan of using multiple postings IFF the topic/thread has multiple conversations and you're replying to distinct threads/ideas/subjects within the topic/thread.  It keeps the individual sub-topics distinct and allows people to skip over the sub-topics they don't care about.
I can do that, too. When I see it's about something I don't care about, I can start reading the next section in their post.

Now, blindly lashing out at someone on topics and conversations they weren't even involved in, that just lacks class.
So you admit that attacking me previously on the multiposting issue in a topic other than the topic where we were arguing about it lacks class.

Back on topic:

Hex (Allen Key) screws with coarse threads into pre-threaded case-plastic pillars is my preference.
Can we have a comparison between Pozidrive and Hex? I don't know the advantages to each, so all I see is the fact that Pozidrive would fix Phillip's flaws with the right driver, but allow people without that driver to use a Phillip's Driver. That sounds pretty useful to me. What does Hex offer to make it more appealing than Pozidrive?

-God Ginrai
 
What does Hex offer to make it more appealing than Pozidrive?
For me it is more readily available tools (I already own them) and lack of confusion about what is the best tool to use (although at this point I will verify before trying to open my Pyra, because of this thread).
 
What does Hex offer to make it more appealing than Pozidrive?
 For me it is more readily available tools (I already own them) and lack of confusion about what is the best tool to use (although at this point I will verify before trying to open my Pyra, because of this thread).
But isn't Phillips even more readily available than hex? And by using Pozidrive, anyone can use Phillips with it, but they can acquire a Pozidrive Driver if they want to decrease the chances of damaging something.

-God Ginrai
 
Clearly I've managed to make you feel special.
 
Special is an imaginitive way to describe what you did.
What I did? Which was... what?

I'm actually a fan of using multiple postings IFF the topic/thread has multiple conversations and you're replying to distinct threads/ideas/subjects within the topic/thread.  It keeps the individual sub-topics distinct and allows people to skip over the sub-topics they don't care about.
I can do that, too. When I see it's about something I don't care about, I can start reading the next section in their post.
OK - so what's the problem?

Now, blindly lashing out at someone on topics and conversations they weren't even involved in, that just lacks class.
So you admit that attacking me previously on the multiposting issue in a topic other than the topic where we were arguing about it lacks class.
Citation needed.


No, seriously - I've been at odds with you on several topics, but I don't recall multi-posting being one of them.


Your demands for:


A USB 3.0 type B connector instead of microUSB 3.0.


Making the case wider or impinging on the space for other controls to make a 2 rows of 3 button layout.


Using bolts and nuts covered with rubber baby buggy bumpers on the Pyra.


Those we've been at odds on - yes. I'll stand by my assertions that those were/are bad ideas.

Back on topic:


Hex (Allen Key) screws with coarse threads into pre-threaded case-plastic pillars is my preference.
Can we have a comparison between Pozidrive and Hex? I don't know the advantages to each, so all I see is the fact that Pozidrive would fix Phillip's flaws with the right driver, but allow people without that driver to use a Phillip's Driver. That sounds pretty useful to me. What does Hex offer to make it more appealing than Pozidrive?
Sure. Pozidrive and hex (Allen) and Torx have the advantage that the fastener can be turned without applying downward force on the fastener (unlike slot and Phillips). However, Pozidrive has two downfalls.


1. Confusion on the proper tool to use. If people use a Phillips driver in the Pozidrive fastener, they still have to apply that downward force which strips screws on removal - which is the main reason we're having this conversation around fasteners. It is also possible to use a square driver in a Pozidrive fastener - which will strip out the center 'square' in no time flat. Instead of getting the 'right tool' for the job, most people will simply 'use what works' to their and their Pyra's detriment.


2. Pozidrive is an oddity. I have a -lot- of tools. I can disassemble and reassemble anything from a game console through an automotive transmission. I don't have a single Pozidrive bit or driver. Pozidrive is also a licensed & patented technology - kind of at odds with the whole Open concept.


Hex &/or Torx both prevent 1 and 2 above from being an issue. They are ubiquitous. I lean toward the Allen/Hex Vs. the Torx - though either one meets the need. Both were at one time patented, but the patents on them have, I believe, both expired.
 
Quick Wikipedia articles around fasteners if anyone is interested:

Why Philips screws are a bad idea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_screwdriver#Phillips

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_out

Pozidriv

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_screwdriver#Posidriv

On compatibility of Phillips and Pozidriv

"Phillips screwdrivers will fit in and turn Pozidriv screws, but will cam out if enough torque is applied, potentially damaging the screw head. The drive wings on a Pozidriv screwdriver will not fit a Phillips screw correctly, and are likely to slip or tear out the screw head."

Hex Key (Allen)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_key

Just adding references for the above conversation.
 
I vote for Bristol: 
40px-Screw_Head_-_Bristol.svg.png


It looks a bit like the Star Wars imperial logo.
 
I'm actually a fan of using multiple postings IFF the topic/thread has multiple conversations and you're replying to distinct threads/ideas/subjects within the topic/thread.  It keeps the individual sub-topics distinct and allows people to skip over the sub-topics they don't care about.
I can do that, too. When I see it's about something I don't care about, I can start reading the next section in their post.
OK - so what's the problem?
 The problem is that if the posts are separate, they take up more space than if they were together due to the way the forum formats posts. This leads to more scrolling, and more pages in a topic.

What I did? Which was... what?
Citation needed.

No, seriously - I've been at odds with you on several topics, but I don't recall multi-posting being one of them.
It started in the "possible soc updates" topic. I instigated the argument originally by calling you a jerk once I realized that you were intentionally multiposting. (You apologized that one of your double posts didn't come out as multiple posts) I'll admit that was a bit out of line. Anyways, the argument spiralled into an argument about multiposting. That's understandable, and I have no particular problems with that. (I do disagree with you multiposting, but it has already been made clear by Moxie that multiposting is allowed) However, the part I was specifically referencing with my comment here was where you dragged the argument into a completely separate topic with this post:

The last I knew you weren't the posting cop or a moderator. Please stop wasting visual board space by asking others to consolidate posts. Disk is cheap. He was responding properly to two separate conversational threads.
Needless to say, I wasn't trying to resurrect this argument; It was merely a sore quip about when you brought the argument into another topic.

Sure. Pozidrive and hex (Allen) and Torx have the advantage that the fastener can be turned without applying downward force on the fastener (unlike slot and Phillips). However, Pozidrive has two downfalls.

1. Confusion on the proper tool to use. If people use a Phillips driver in the Pozidrive fastener, they still have to apply that downward force which strips screws on removal - which is the main reason we're having this conversation around fasteners. It is also possible to use a square driver in a Pozidrive fastener - which will strip out the center 'square' in no time flat. Instead of getting the 'right tool' for the job, most people will simply 'use what works' to their and their Pyra's detriment.
Thanks for providing reasons. I agree that confusion is a viable problem. However, wouldn't the benefit of being able to use Phillips or Pozidrive outweigh the negatives that screw confusion brings? Most people who would be interested in disassembling the device are likely to be informed enough to know what kind of screw are in the Pyra.

2. Pozidrive is an oddity. I have a -lot- of tools. I can disassemble and reassemble anything from a game console through an automotive transmission. I don't have a single Pozidrive bit or driver. Pozidrive is also a licensed & patented technology - kind of at odds with the whole Open concept.
But most people do not have as many tools as you do. So with Hex or Torx, they may have to buy tools. With Pozidrive, the best action would be to buy the driver, but they are allowed the option to just use a Phillip's driver if they so choose.

-God Ginrai
 
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