Screw decisions for assembly


I think it's best to have something standard like phillips #0 but of reasonable quality that we can obtain easily if lost (hardware store or such).


Not sure if you guys have heard of the KISS principal but it might pay to google it.
 
My first set of screwdrivers ( a Christmas present when I were a lad) included three pozidrivers.

They aren't that rare.
 
Not these ones then?

82488285_c17a2a47f1.jpg


I have a nice little pen shaped driver with a load of dif bits that are stored in it, handy for opening a lot of things.

This is the one, but mine is metalic orange

ltb_main.jpg


I would still really like the stylus to double up as the screwdriver, whatever type of screw is used. Couldn't get more handier than that, you'd always have it to hand when you needed to get into your Pyra
 
I guess HEX (inbus) is the most common type after Phillips so it would be the best solution for the Pyra imho. Everyone has some Hex Keys at home and even if not, the idea with the matching screw driver in the Pyra Stylus is still around. :)

800px-Inbus-sruby.jpg
 
Several of you are missing the point to the entire conversation.

Phillips is BAD for this application because it is -designed- to cam out under torque.

Translation - the harder you need to turn the screw, the more down force you need to apply to keep the driver engaged.

This means that you have to push down on a screw to remove it back up - resulting in stripped threads and screw heads.

If you use a Phillips driver in a Pozidriv fastener it will still suffer those exact same issues.

Hex keys are $0.20 each.  They aren't exactly a barrier to entry.  Sure, you might not have one in your kitchen junk drawer, but if you don't have basic tools, then you probably shouldn't be disassembling a $700 micro computer.  At that point your odds of having an anti-static mat is pretty much nil too.
 
Then one could included with Pyra without driving up the cost much
Or at the very least an optional component when ordering.There's a reason Ikea ships them with everything. I must have dozens of the exact same wrench and key.
 
Then one could included with Pyra without driving up the cost much
Or at the very least an optional component when ordering.
There's a reason Ikea ships them with everything. I must have dozens of the exact same wrench and key.
Including one with every purchase could be interpreted as endorsing everyone to take their case apart.  

Selling one with purchase might be OK - but then they might want to include an anti-static mat and wrist strap with it too, since those should be a requirement before exposing the motherboard.

Really, people shouldn't be casually disassembling their case on the kitchen table while petting a cat and drinking a soda.  They should take proper anti-static precautions, have a prepared work surface (anti-static mat) and the right tools for the job they plan to do.  Otherwise they stand a good chance at causing more harm than benefits with whatever they were trying to accomplish.

But then, that gets into my opinion - people are welcome to destroy their $700 toy if they so choose.  Just as long as they don't assume that doing so entitles them to warranty repairs for their own ignorance.
 
Including one with every purchase could be interpreted as endorsing everyone to take their case apart.
So could this.
If that's a concern then just apply a warning sticker somewhere (on the Pyra or on the hex key) about dangers of static and proper precautions (PC motherboards have it in the instruction manual).
 
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If we use hex, care should be taken that the head of the screw isn't too deep in. Hex bits in socket sets often have quite a short section of shaft at the narrower width, preventing them fitting down deep recesses.
 

pedros-29162-med.jpg
 
If we use hex, care should be taken that the head of the screw isn't too deep in. Hex bits in socket sets often have quite a short section of shaft at the narrower width, preventing them fitting down deep recesses.

pedros-29162-med.jpg
Not really.  Proper tool for the job:

7122ap1l.png
 
If we use hex, care should be taken that the head of the screw isn't too deep in. Hex bits in socket sets often have quite a short section of shaft at the narrower width, preventing them fitting down deep recesses.


pedros-29162-med.jpg
Not really. Proper tool for the job:


7122ap1l.png
aren't those tiny Allen wrenches easy to bend?! I mean how big are we talkin here. I've dealt with tiny Allen's and the wrenchs looked like wrought iron after one project!

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If we use hex, care should be taken that the head of the screw isn't too deep in. Hex bits in socket sets often have quite a short section of shaft at the narrower width, preventing them fitting down deep recesses.

pedros-29162-med.jpg
Not really. Proper tool for the job:

7122ap1l.png
aren't those tiny Allen wrenches easy to bend?! I mean how big are we talkin here. I've dealt with tiny Allen's and the wrenchs looked like wrought iron after one project!

Sent from my Z665C using Tapatalk
It's a metal screw held in place by the friction of plastic threads - and you're worried about bending a 1.5mm hex key?  We're not driving 4" self tapping deck screws here.

To insert a screw in this situation you would place the screw in the case hole/pocket, turn it backwards until you feel it seat down in the threads then turn it forward until you feel it stop - then stop turning.  There isn't a huge amount of torque needed.  The big idea with using an 'advanced' fastener is so that there is no reason to push down on or over-torque the socket/threads.

Removal is just as easy, place the hex key into the head/cap of the screw and turn it counter clockwise - no pushing down on the driver required.
 
If we use hex, care should be taken that the head of the screw isn't too deep in. Hex bits in socket sets often have quite a short section of shaft at the narrower width, preventing them fitting down deep recesses.


pedros-29162-med.jpg
Not really. Proper tool for the job:

7122ap1l.png
aren't those tiny Allen wrenches easy to bend?! I mean how big are we talkin here. I've dealt with tiny Allen's and the wrenchs looked like wrought iron after one project!

Sent from my Z665C using Tapatalk
It's a metal screw held in place by the friction of plastic threads - and you're worried about bending a 1.5mm hex key? We're not driving 4" self tapping deck screws here.


To insert a screw in this situation you would place the screw in the case hole/pocket, turn it backwards until you feel it seat down in the threads then turn it forward until you feel it stop - then stop turning. There isn't a huge amount of torque needed. The big idea with using an 'advanced' fastener is so that there is no reason to push down on or over-torque the socket/threads.


Removal is just as easy, place the hex key into the head/cap of the screw and turn it counter clockwise - no pushing down on the driver required.
I've dealt with screws that mounted stuff to metal and was torqued down. If these are simple I have no issue with them. Also I feel these would be a bit more presentable. I've seen a lot of expensive stuff showing off the torx or hex screw's

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I guess HEX (inbus) is the most common type after Phillips so it would be the best solution for the Pyra imho. Everyone has some Hex Keys at home and even if not, the idea with the matching screw driver in the Pyra Stylus is still around. :)
 Hex is common, but it comes in different sizes. Unlike Phillips, which can fit many sizes at the same time, Hex only fits one size with any specific hex driver.

Several of you are missing the point to the entire conversation.

Phillips is BAD for this application because it is -designed- to cam out under torque.

Translation - the harder you need to turn the screw, the more down force you need to apply to keep the driver engaged.

This means that you have to push down on a screw to remove it back up - resulting in stripped threads and screw heads.

If you use a Phillips driver in a Pozidriv fastener it will still suffer those exact same issues.

Hex keys are $0.20 each.  They aren't exactly a barrier to entry.  Sure, you might not have one in your kitchen junk drawer, but if you don't have basic tools, then you probably shouldn't be disassembling a $700 micro computer.  At that point your odds of having an anti-static mat is pretty much nil too.
I think you're missing the point I'm making. Yes, Phillips is bad. But look at this:


Screw Type | Likelihood of owning one of those drivers that will work | Works correctly? | Able to use another driver if you do not wish to purchase the correct driver (time constraints, etc.)
Phillips | highly likely | No | Unnecessary. You likely own one.
Hex | unlikely | Yes | Not able
Pozidrive | highly unlikely | Yes | Able
My point is that Pozidrive solves the problem just as well as Hex does. However, Pozidrive can be unscrewed by more people by virtue of being able to be unscrewed by a Phillips head. Sure, using a Phillips head has the same problems as you would using Phillips screws, but the important difference is that we have now given them the option to safely open their case with the right tools, while allowing the majority of users to be able to open their case even if they do not.
If we use hex, care should be taken that the head of the screw isn't too deep in. Hex bits in socket sets often have quite a short section of shaft at the narrower width, preventing them fitting down deep recesses.

pedros-29162-med.jpg
 Not really.  Proper tool for the job:

7122ap1l.png
I hate those things. A socket wrench or anything with a real grip is a much more useful tool. If I can use Hex bits in a socket wrench, I will use it every time over a standard allen key.

-God Ginrai
 
I think you're missing the point I'm making. Yes, Phillips is bad. But look at this:






Screw Type | Likelihood of owning one of those drivers that will work | Works correctly? | Able to use another driver if you do not wish to purchase the correct driver (time constraints, etc.)
Phillips | highly likely | No | Unnecessary. You likely own one.
Hex | unlikely | Yes | Not able
Pozidrive | highly unlikely | Yes | Able

My point is that Pozidrive solves the problem just as well as Hex does. However, Pozidrive can be unscrewed by more people by virtue of being able to be unscrewed by a Phillips head. Sure, using a Phillips head has the same problems as you would using Phillips screws, but the important difference is that we have now given them the option to safely open their case with the right tools, while allowing the majority of users to be able to open their case even if they do not.
If you are too lazy/cheap/busy to buy an Allen wrench or the correct driver if using Pozi you probably shouldn't be opening the case.

I don't know about other people and places but I have several sets of allen wrenches, and if I didn't they are available in any store that has tools, and are very cheap.

Edit: Actually, your chart and the recent discussion has made me realise I really don't think Pozidriv is a good option.  I fully support Phillips, hex, torx, triwing and others mentioned in the thread roughly in the order I listed them.
 
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If you are too lazy/cheap/busy to buy an Allen wrench or the correct driver if using Pozi you probably shouldn't be opening the case.
That's elitist, and honestly, you shouldn't be making the decisions based on that.

I don't know about other people and places but I have several sets of allen wrenches, and if I didn't they are available in any store that has tools, and are very cheap.
The only allen wrenches I have are left over from IKEA sets. And likely, none of those would fit the screws that would need to be used for the Pyra.

Edit: Actually, your chart and the recent discussion has made me realise I really don't think Pozidriv is a good option. I fully support Phillips, hex, torx, triwing and others mentioned in the thread roughly in the order I listed them.
You are making no sense here. You support Phillips as the best option, but think that Pozi would be bad. Pozi would allow you to disassemble your device in a non-damaging way, whereas Phillips would not. Using Pozi screws allows you to use 2 kinds of drivers instead of 1; 1 kind of driver that will disassemble the unit in a non-damaging way and 1 kind of driver that will disassemble the unit in a possibly damaging way. That's much better than using just Phillips, which only allows a driver that will disassemble the unit in a possibly damaging way.

-God Ginrai
 
rygD said:
If you are too lazy/cheap/busy to buy an Allen wrench or the correct driver if using Pozi you probably shouldn't be opening the case.
That's elitist, and honestly, you shouldn't be making the decisions based on that.
In that case, it doesn't matter what screws are used, people can open the case with a rock.
rygD said:
I don't know about other people and places but I have several sets of allen wrenches, and if I didn't they are available in any store that has tools, and are very cheap.
The only allen wrenches I have are left over from IKEA sets. And likely, none of those would fit the screws that would need to be used for the Pyra.
Have you checked your local stores?
rygD said:
Edit: Actually, your chart and the recent discussion has made me realise I really don't think Pozidriv is a good option. I fully support Phillips, hex, torx, triwing and others mentioned in the thread roughly in the order I listed them.
You are making no sense here. You support Phillips as the best option, but think that Pozi would be bad. Pozi would allow you to disassemble your device in a non-damaging way, whereas Phillips would not. Using Pozi screws allows you to use 2 kinds of drivers instead of 1; 1 kind of driver that will disassemble the unit in a non-damaging way and 1 kind of driver that will disassemble the unit in a possibly damaging way. That's much better than using just Phillips, which only allows a driver that will disassemble the unit in a possibly damaging way.
 I never said Phillips was the best, just cheap, available and people know what it is.  I still don't think the risk of using Phillips is so high that a potentially more expensive solution (either for assembly or for the user/owner) needs to be used.  Lessons were learned from last time, better plastic and possibly better Phillips screws will prevent the current issues.  It is pointless to use Pozi with the expectation that people will use Phillips drivers...just use Phillips screws.  If you take away that "benefit" then you might as well go all the way and remove potential confusion by using something that is more common and obvious what it is.

fixed formatting
 
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rygD, on 28 May 2014 - 9:54 PM, said:If you are too lazy/cheap/busy to buy an Allen wrench or the correct driver if using Pozi you probably shouldn't be opening the case.That's elitist, and honestly, you shouldn't be making the decisions based on that.
In that case, it doesn't matter what screws are used, people can open the case with a rock.
 Phillips isn't guaranteed to break your case or screws. A rock is.

rygD, on 28 May 2014 - 9:54 PM, said:I don't know about other people and places but I have several sets of allen wrenches, and if I didn't they are available in any store that has tools, and are very cheap.The only allen wrenches I have are left over from IKEA sets. And likely, none of those would fit the screws that would need to be used for the Pyra.
Have you checked your local stores?
 No, because the only time I've needed those wrenches, they've been provided. You said "I don't know about other people". I was letting you know that there were "other people" who did not own sets of allen wrenches. I only know one or two people who may own a set. (I'm not sure if they own a set, but they seem likely to)

rygD, on 28 May 2014 - 9:54 PM, said:Edit: Actually, your chart and the recent discussion has made me realise I really don't think Pozidriv is a good option. I fully support Phillips, hex, torx, triwing and others mentioned in the thread roughly in the order I listed them.You are making no sense here. You support Phillips as the best option, but think that Pozi would be bad. Pozi would allow you to disassemble your device in a non-damaging way, whereas Phillips would not. Using Pozi screws allows you to use 2 kinds of drivers instead of 1; 1 kind of driver that will disassemble the unit in a non-damaging way and 1 kind of driver that will disassemble the unit in a possibly damaging way. That's much better than using just Phillips, which only allows a driver that will disassemble the unit in a possibly damaging way.
 I never said Phillips was the best, just cheap, available and people know what it is.  I still don't think the risk of using Phillips is so high that a potentially more expensive solution (either for assembly or for the user/owner) needs to be used.  Lessons were learned from last time, better plastic and possibly better Phillips screws will prevent the current issues.  It is pointless to use Pozi with the expectation that people will use Phillips drivers...just use Phillips screws.  If you take away that "benefit" then you might as well go all the way and remove potential confusion by using something that is more common and obvious what it is.
The point has already been made by WizardStan and others that none of these suggested solutions would be costly or expensive. If the difference is so little, why not use a correct screw?

Also, I never said to use Pozi with the expectation that people will use Phillips drivers. I said that by using Pozi, those who care enough to not chance damaging their device can use the correct driver, while those who are more willing to take the chance can use a Phillip's Head.

-God Ginrai
 
No, because the only time I've needed those wrenches, they've been provided. You said "I don't know about other people". I was letting you know that there were "other people" who did not own sets of allen wrenches. I only know one or two people who may own a set. (I'm not sure if they own a set, but they seem likely to)
Compare Pozidriv and Allen prices at your local store and get back to me. Feel free to check Amazon or whatever you prefer if it is easier.
The point has already been made by WizardStan and others that none of these suggested solutions would be costly or expensive. If the difference is so little, why not use a correct screw?

Also, I never said to use Pozi with the expectation that people will use Phillips drivers. I said that by using Pozi, those who care enough to not chance damaging their device can use the correct driver, while those who are more willing to take the chance can use a Phillip's Head.
Pozi is more likely to be more expensive for more users. Are we sure there would be no price increase for actual assembly? You can't use Phillips working with Pozidriv screws as a benefit if you aren't expecting it to be used.
ED will use what he feels is best, and I have a feeling it will be Phillips. I am not trying to be rude, but if you dislike the screws that are used you can always replace them.
 
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