Screw decisions for assembly

[levi]

Hex it is then.  Perhaps also torx doesn't require positive force to retain in the socket, and theoretically a sufficiently deep slotted screw would be able to keep the screwdriver engaged through gravity alone.

Course, for me the screw wasn't the problem, it was the size of the hole it was sat in.  A hex bolt would be easier to force through such a hole, because you wouldn't need to worry about breaking the thread through overpressure, though there's still a risk that the force exerted on the threads to drive the bolt past the obstruction would break them.

 

[rygD]

The problem here is with the screws. I think we should switch to a screw where you do not need to apply pressure in order to turn it. If we do that, then we don't really need to worry about what the screw well is made out of or reinforced (If it even is) with.

Screws are the main focus, but the case material (or whatever the screw goes into) is also very important.  You can have amazing screws that cost $500 each and took a few billion dollars to develop, but if you have shitty plastic that can't handle the stress of having a screw inserted or removed it is useless.

I am sure many here understand the peril of using a poor quality plastic. 

 

[deadofmind]

I thoroughly believe that EvilDragon will have fixed the plastic quality issue. If he does, then all we need is good screws Besides we can't exactly have a discussion on what type of plastics to use. We can only trust in EvilDragon.

My vote if for hex or torx.

And having the same size driver bit integrated with the stylus isn't such a bad idea either

Believe!

 

[rygD]

I am for good quality Phillips screws that won't chew up the plastic or get caught in the well, or whatever everyone else wants that doesn't increase the cost.

Edit: clarified Phillips screws.

 

[deadofmind]

Why? I don't even.

That's disregarding the last 7 pages of discussion.

None of that makes sense.

the Phillips screw drive was purposely designed to cam out when the screw stalled, to prevent the fastener damaging the work or the head, instead damaging the driver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Phillips

It's designed to cam out if there isn't enough Pressure to keep the driver in.

This kills the plastic.

Robertson, Hex, and Torx are literally the best options.

Edit: Looking at the list of screw drives on wiki, it really brings to perspective the number of screws people will design to keep people out of their products... You would think that at least one company would be a huge troll and use one of every screw in their product... That would definitely keep people out of them.

 

[rygD]

Why? I don't even. That's disregarding the last 7 pages of discussion. None of that makes sense.

 

I have had few issues repeatedly using Phillips screws in other devices, but my main reason for supporting it is cost.  I don't remember who originally said it, but I am seeing several people say "lets add/change this thing, it is cheap to do so".  Less common screws, piezo speaker, fancy stylus (I really want this), etc.  Let's keep the base price as low as possible and leave all the mods to the individual.

If other screws are found more suitable with no increase in cost, I am all for using them.  If you are going to be opening your Pyra frequently you can always swap the screws with whatever you prefer that has the same threading by CAREFULLY removing the stock screws.  If this is beyond a person's skills maybe they should reconsider opening it.

 

[Binky]

How much more expensive is it to  get screws with a different head?

 

[WizardStan]

"lets add/change this thing, it is cheap to do so". Less common screws

Phillips isn't the de-facto standard. The cost to change the screw head to something else (Robertson, hex, or even slotted) is zero. Maybe for torx it might cost a bit more, I haven't investigated, but the point is it is possible to choose a more suitable screw for the job than Phillips without changing the cost at all.The costs people refer to in this thread has been for making more extreme changes, nuts and bolts, changing the plastic, switching to an uncommon screw like posidrive, etc...

There is no reason that "cost" should be a reason to keep Phillips.

 

[rygD]

Just to clarify what some people seem to be misunderstanding, I said I am good with quality Phillips or whatever everyone decides, as long as there is no price increase.

My reason for stating that was not to say we must use Phillips and only Phillips.  My point in phrasing it as I did was to emphasize that I will get whatever tool is needed, and I don't care what is used as long as it doesn't add to the final cost, but I guess I screwed that up.  I was also acknowledging that a good choice of a screw, even a Phillips, should work fine.  I am sure ED will take the issues with Pandora screws into consideration.

I have destroyed some screws in my day, but that is more on me than the design of the screw.  In this scenario, if the proper screw is used properly, I don't think there should be much of a problem, as long as it isn't binding with the sides of the well it is in.  It is a plastic case, you don't need to torque it down, and if you do you should expect failure of the case, regardless of what head is on the screw.

 

[Binky]

switching to an uncommon screw like posidrive

What's uncommon about pozidriv?

 

[WizardStan]

What's uncommon about pozidriv?

I can't find them at any local hardware store to do a fair price comparison. Couldn't even find bits for it. I've found a couple (literally 2) direct retailers online, compared against hundreds for other screw types such as Phillips and Robertson. The screwdrivers and bits are easy enough to come by when ordering online, but the actual screws themselves are much less common than others.I probably shouldn't have mentioned it as an example of potential cost increase without the right evidence, I was just trying to find an example of a change that *could* result in a cost increase.

To be fair, the two retailers I found are priced quite favourably against their Phillips and Robertson counterparts, less than 8 cents a screw for thousands which is the same as for other screw types, and I'm sure ED could find an even better supplier.

 

[moxie]

You must live in a strange part of the world. Here, it is more or less impossible to get Philips head screws - All cross-shaped head screws are pozidrive

Then again, I suppose it changes with material. Machine screws (as in those intended to go with a nut) can still be gotten as Philips (that is more or less their designed use, after all), whilst on the wood/plastic side, it is pozidrive or torx.

 

[comradekingu]

Its uncommon for people to know the difference between pozi and phillips. Same as with hex, people dont know there is a difference between metric and imperial.

What happens with both of those is people use the wrong tool for the job and end up causing damage.

Torx is the only one i know of where there is a set standard that the screws follow. I suppose with some sizes its possible to use the wrong one.

But a nice big T8 screwhead  M2.5 thread 16mm  length  0.100N·m torque next to the screwhole should take care of at least conceivable idiocy. Maybe print it in the battery cover that you have to take off with arrows towards the holes. There is always _a_ way, but that imo is the best way of avoiding potential ways to fail.

 

[Binky]

In case anyone is still confused:

Philips, torx, slot, Pozi, hex, in that order, left-->right, top-->bottom

 

[WizardStan]

One of the benefits of pozidriv is that it can be removed with a Phillips screwdriver. If ED can source 100'000 without adding cost that is probably the best way to go: those like Yoyobuae who just want a common screw can use their Phillips, those like myself that want a screw that just comes out when turned without excess force can spend the $2 for the perfect tool.

I wish I'd known about pozidriv before, I wouldn't have suggested Robertson

 

[God Ginrai]

i personally think the nut and bolt idea is "nuts"... firstly i have very seldom seen it in use except on metal frames. the problem is one of fixing it to the material.

I agree that the idea you somehow think I am suggesting is "nuts". You seem to have the idea that you need to thread the Pyra case for the nuts and bolt idea, but that's not right at all. All you need is a hole on the top and bottom for the bolt (or screw) to travel through both ends of the case. Then the nut screws onto the threads on the bolt or screw. This is much simpler than what you were thinking.

-God Ginrai

 

[spud42]

i personally think the nut and bolt idea is "nuts"... firstly i have very seldom seen it in use except on metal frames. the problem is one of fixing it to the material.

I agree that the idea you somehow think I am suggesting is "nuts". You seem to have the idea that you need to thread the Pyra case for the nuts and bolt idea, but that's not right at all. All you need is a hole on the top and bottom for the bolt (or screw) to travel through both ends of the case. Then the nut screws onto the threads on the bolt or screw. This is much simpler than what you were thinking.

-God Ginrai

i see what you are saying but that now makes two holes in the case per bolt/nut combo and instead of posts to screw into they now would have to be tubes to guide the bolt and to support the case in case of over tightening.

also instead of 1 screw length for the entire case there would be different bolt lengths depending on what part of the case it is going through. small bolts in the lid also leaving unsightly holes on the case outer surface, medium size bolts for Assembly where the battery is and long bolts for the 4 corners etc . also leaving unsightly holes on the underside of the case.

i did not mean to imply you were nuts GG ....

 

[Grench]

i personally think the nut and bolt idea is "nuts"... firstly i have very seldom seen it in use except on metal frames. the problem is one of fixing it to the material.

I agree that the idea you somehow think I am suggesting is "nuts". You seem to have the idea that you need to thread the Pyra case for the nuts and bolt idea, but that's not right at all. All you need is a hole on the top and bottom for the bolt (or screw) to travel through both ends of the case. Then the nut screws onto the threads on the bolt or screw. This is much simpler than what you were thinking.

-God Ginrai

Reminds me of a joke I heard...

A man walks into a psychiatrist's office wearing nothing but plastic cling wrap.  The psychiatrist looks up from his notes and says, "I can clearly see you're/your nuts."

Through holes with nuts and bolts was and still is a bad idea.

Torx or hex (Allen drive) screws for the win.  Either are ubiquitous, require no down force to turn, can be acquired cheaply from established suppliers and the drivers can be purchased anywhere.

Next?

 

[DrHAX]

I'm saying triwing I've taken apart countless game boys and never had a triwing strip on me. Also then ED could sell the special screwdriver in his shop

Sent from my Z665C using Tapatalk

 

[rygD]

Triwing sounds good, and would be kind of amusing.