Screw decisions for assembly

[God Ginrai]

No, because the only time I've needed those wrenches, they've been provided. You said "I don't know about other people". I was letting you know that there were "other people" who did not own sets of allen wrenches. I only know one or two people who may own a set. (I'm not sure if they own a set, but they seem likely to)

Compare Pozidriv and Allen prices at your local store and get back to me. Feel free to check Amazon or whatever you prefer if it is easier.

 And? What's your point? Everyone who doesn't have the right hex driver will have to purchase one. For Pozi, only the ones who want to be careful will have to spend extra money.

Pozi is more likely to be more expensive for more users. Are we sure there would be no price increase for actual assembly? You can't use Phillips working with Pozidriv screws as a benefit if you aren't expecting it to be used.

I never said there would be no price increase, and neither did WizardStan or others. However, the amount they calculated is almost negligible.

And your argument still makes no sense. You are arguing that we should not use the better screw because many people will use the more common screwdriver. That's like arguing that we shouldn't use USB 3.0 because most people will plug in USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 devices.

I am not trying to be rude, but if you dislike the screws that are used you can always replace them.

If you use Phillips, you risk breaking the case trying to replace the screws. Just something to note.

-God Ginrai

 

[rygD]

And? What's your point? Everyone who doesn't have the right hex driver will have to purchase one. For Pozi, only the ones who want to be careful will have to spend extra money.

You focused on only one part of my original statement, the part where I was talking about having them on hand. the other part was about availability. If Pozidrivers are more readily available for you then there is the difference. This was my point. Furthermore, for the price of one Pozi on Amazon I can get a full set of Allens...I still don't know what the correct Pozi size might be.

And your argument still makes no sense. You are arguing that we should not use the better screw because many people will use the more common screwdriver. That's like arguing that we shouldn't use USB 3.0 because most people will plug in USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 devices.

It does make sense, you just like debating. I in fact said we should use a better screw, but use one that people know what it is, such as hex or torx. There is no point in going half assed with Pozi so people can use Phillips. If we aren't going to use Phillips then go with something more common than Pozi that doesn't nullify the benefit and cost and effort for the same performance for people who don't know the difference. If that is a bad idea, go with Phillips. In response to your last sentence here, it is like the side discussion in the "What is a game you can't wait to play on the Pyra?" thread about the OMAP5432 where I said it would be nice to have more RAM...if it will be a waste for most people that has negatives if implemented there is no point in using it. A negative for both is cost (even if small, it adds up over a few thousand units), as well as battery life and such in my RAM example, or getting the right tool for screws.

If you use Phillips, you risk breaking the case trying to replace the screws. Just something to note.

Noted, and acknowledged many times in this thread. I have no say in this decision unless ED listens to us.

 

[Binky]

One point against hex is that, sometimes, I've found very small (and low-quality) hex heads get stripped, so that the recess in the top of the head is circular, not hexagonal.

Having said that, use of the correct bit, and high-quality screws should fix that.

 

[Tenka]

I really miss flat heads.  You absolutely cannot strip flat heads.  What's the problem with them besides having to look at what you're doing while inserting the screwdriver?

 

[Binky]

I really miss flat heads.  You absolutely cannot strip flat heads.  What's the problem with them besides having to look at what you're doing while inserting the screwdriver?

I like them too.

Problem is that the driver tends to slip sideways, cutting into the sides if the screw is used in a well

 

[moxie]

No, because the only time I've needed those wrenches, they've been provided. You said "I don't know about other people". I was letting you know that there were "other people" who did not own sets of allen wrenches. I only know one or two people who may own a set. (I'm not sure if they own a set, but they seem likely to)

Compare Pozidriv and Allen prices at your local store and get back to me. Feel free to check Amazon or whatever you prefer if it is easier.

This is all a very interesting display of social differences. If I go into my local hardware store, I'll find pozidrive, phillips and torx drivers everywhere. To find Allen drivers, I'd have to go to a specialty shop (and this is given that this is the land of IKEA). Those square ones (I don't remember the name now) are literally nowhere to be found, except as pack-in bits when you buy a particular sort of floor board screws.

In the sizes we're talking about here, the obvious choice would be torx or phillips, depending on your desired screw-material-interaction. And, well, flat-headed if you really don't care about anything at all

The point has already been made by WizardStan and others that none of these suggested solutions would be costly or expensive. If the difference is so little, why not use a correct screw?


Also, I never said to use Pozi with the expectation that people will use Phillips drivers. I said that by using Pozi, those who care enough to not chance damaging their device can use the correct driver, while those who are more willing to take the chance can use a Phillip's Head.

Pozi is more likely to be more expensive for more users. Are we sure there would be no price increase for actual assembly? You can't use Phillips working with Pozidriv screws as a benefit if you aren't expecting it to be used.

Are you seriously thinking that a professional assembly place would not have the ability to use any of these?  

 

[Binky]

If I go into my local hardware store, I'll find pozidrive, phillips and torx drivers everywhere.
...

the obvious choice would be torx or phillips,

So why not Pozi?

Given that none of philips, pozi, torx, hex are particularly hard to find (although it obviously varies from place to place), I suggest we discard arguments based on commonness.

 

[moxie]

I'd say not pozi, for this size of screw head, since the pozi profile is a bit more complex and I haven't actually seen a lot of either pozi screws or drivers in the kind of small-electronics sizes we see here. The smallest size I know of is #0, and I don't have one of those, but the #1 size is quite a bit bigger than what would be practical. The Pozi profile takes up a bit more space in the head to do it right, I guess So it is not based on commonness, but on the actual standard sizes.

Torx is available well down into these sizes. Philips too. The choice between these would be based on the kind of interaction you want between the screw and the base material.  

 

[DrHAX]

I really miss flat heads. You absolutely cannot strip flat heads. What's the problem with them besides having to look at what you're doing while inserting the screwdriver?

from an automotive standpoint torqued down ones will strip.. you end up with an hour glass shape as it slips. From a device standpoint.. nothing. I disassembled a 1930's record player that was all flatheads. Gods that project went smoothly. If you're not torquing them down they're perfectly fine. I'd rather have flat heads then Philips... but I'd rather have something speciality like triwing. If a modder is willing to open the case they should have the right tools. So investing in a three USD screwdriver shouldn't be an issue.. the only issue with this screw debate is what would it cost ed to assemble the pyra with the new screws!

Sent from my Z665C using Tapatalk

 

[Grench]

I'd say not pozi, for this size of screw head, since the pozi profile is a bit more complex and I haven't actually seen a lot of either pozi screws or drivers in the kind of small-electronics sizes we see here. The smallest size I know of is #0, and I don't have one of those, but the #1 size is quite a bit bigger than what would be practical. The Pozi profile takes up a bit more space in the head to do it right, I guess So it is not based on commonness, but on the actual standard sizes.

Torx is available well down into these sizes. Philips too. The choice between these would be based on the kind of interaction you want between the screw and the base material.  

I'm fine with Torx or Allen (hex key) - either one is a great option.

I'm a bit shocked that hex keys (Allen) are hard to find -anywhere-.  Here in the US complete sets are sold in the hardware store's check-out lines as an impulse buy item next to the chewing gum and beef snacks.

 

[God Ginrai]

And? What's your point? Everyone who doesn't have the right hex driver will have to purchase one. For Pozi, only the ones who want to be careful will have to spend extra money.

You focused on only one part of my original statement, the part where I was talking about having them on hand. the other part was about availability. If Pozidrivers are more readily available for you then there is the difference. This was my point. Furthermore, for the price of one Pozi on Amazon I can get a full set of Allens...I still don't know what the correct Pozi size might be.

Yes, but the difference is that more people would have to spend to get a driver to open their device if you use hex. With Pozi, you're given a choice:

1) Do it for cheap (or nothing) with a Phillips head, but risk possibly damaging the device or screws.

2) Buy the correct driver and experience no risk.

There are plenty of people who may choose 1, and by using Pozi, we give the user the option rather than forcing them to spend by using a driver like hex or forcing them to chance damaging their device or screws by using only Phillips.

And your argument still makes no sense. You are arguing that we should not use the better screw because many people will use the more common screwdriver. That's like arguing that we shouldn't use USB 3.0 because most people will plug in USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 devices.

It does make sense, you just like debating. I in fact said we should use a better screw, but use one that people know what it is, such as hex or torx. There is no point in going half assed with Pozi so people can use Phillips. If we aren't going to use Phillips then go with something more common than Pozi that doesn't nullify the benefit and cost and effort for the same performance for people who don't know the difference. If that is a bad idea, go with Phillips. In response to your last sentence here, it is like the side discussion in the "What is a game you can't wait to play on the Pyra?" thread about the OMAP5432 where I said it would be nice to have more RAM...if it will be a waste for most people that has negatives if implemented there is no point in using it. A negative for both is cost (even if small, it adds up over a few thousand units), as well as battery life and such in my RAM example, or getting the right tool for screws.

Hardly. You suggested that Phillips would be better than using Pozidrive, which can work exactly like Phillips, or be able to be disassembled in a safe manner. And the reason you think Phillips would be better is because a Phillips Driver can be used with it. The arguments for Hex and Torx in this topic at least make sense, but your reason for dismissing Pozi in favor of Phillips makes absolutely no sense. And no, your argument is much more like the USB argument I suggested than it is like a RAM argument. USB 1.1 and 2.0 can be used in USB 3.0 slots (like a Phillips driver can be used in the Pozidrive screw), but you get the best speed out of USB 3.0 with a USB 3.0 cable and device (like using a Pozidrive driver in the Pozidrive screw)

Also, you talk about ones people know what they were... I had never heard of Torx before this topic, so that one is not as well-known as you think.

If you use Phillips, you risk breaking the case trying to replace the screws. Just something to note.

Noted, and acknowledged many times in this thread. I have no say in this decision unless ED listens to us.

And yet you still suggested we could replace the screws as if there was no repercussion.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

And again back to ignoring the basics.

1.  Phillips is a bad design for this application.

2.  The proper driver to remove hex key or torx screws is only one portion of the proper kit needed to safely disassemble an expensive piece of electronics hardware.

It's a $700 handheld computer.  Expecting someone to have or buy a common $0.25 tool/driver AND a $20 anti static mat AND a $5 anti static wrist strap before self-servicing said computer isn't "elitist" it's "sane".

If someone isn't willing to purchase the proper tools for the job, then frankly they shouldn't be opening the case to begin with.  They stand a high chance to do far more harm than any good they're trying to accomplish.

I can turn out screws with the end of a butter knife - that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Although it is -possible- to turn out a Pozidriv screw with a Philips OR square driver does not mean that it's a good idea to do so.  We would be much better off using Allen hex key or Torx where there is no ambiguity of what is the correct tool to use.  They're common enough to NOT be a barrier to entry to anyone who has half a clue to begin with.

Anyone who doesn't have half a clue, a proper tool to fit the fastener, an anti static mat and wrist strap shouldn't be opening the case to begin with.  Again, that is not elitist, that is a sane <$30 set of precautions for servicing a roughly $700 piece of electronics.

Sheesh - you'd think we were asking for gold plated screws requiring a titanium proprietary security driver and a clean room environment - which is pretty common for servicing/recovering industrial hard drives.

 

[rygD]

No, because the only time I've needed those wrenches, they've been provided. You said "I don't know about other people". I was letting you know that there were "other people" who did not own sets of allen wrenches. I only know one or two people who may own a set. (I'm not sure if they own a set, but they seem likely to)

Compare Pozidriv and Allen prices at your local store and get back to me. Feel free to check Amazon or whatever you prefer if it is easier.

This is all a very interesting display of social differences. If I go into my local hardware store, I'll find pozidrive, phillips and torx drivers everywhere. To find Allen drivers, I'd have to go to a specialty shop (and this is given that this is the land of IKEA). Those square ones (I don't remember the name now) are literally nowhere to be found, except as pack-in bits when you buy a particular sort of floor board screws.

In the sizes we're talking about here, the obvious choice would be torx or phillips, depending on your desired screw-material-interaction. And, well, flat-headed if you really don't care about anything at all

The point has already been made by WizardStan and others that none of these suggested solutions would be costly or expensive. If the difference is so little, why not use a correct screw?


Also, I never said to use Pozi with the expectation that people will use Phillips drivers. I said that by using Pozi, those who care enough to not chance damaging their device can use the correct driver, while those who are more willing to take the chance can use a Phillip's Head.

Pozi is more likely to be more expensive for more users. Are we sure there would be no price increase for actual assembly? You can't use Phillips working with Pozidriv screws as a benefit if you aren't expecting it to be used.

Are you seriously thinking that a professional assembly place would not have the ability to use any of these?

I haven't finished getting caught up, but it is good to know that about Allen being uncommon over there.  It is sorta surprising to me given your country and one of it's most well known companies.  I have wanted to visit there for a few years.

Torx and hex were why I said roughly that order, because I still think both are decent choices.  I thought hex would be readily available in more places, with the risk of using the wrong type (American vs metric).  I think Torx and Phillips may be the best choices, then.  Obviously there are goods and bads of each.

Regarding assembly with Pozi, I honestly have no clue.  It isn't a drive type I am familiar with, and I didn't know it was used with electronics.  It wasn't until this thread that I realised I had seen them before.  That was on the other side of the planet from me, in an area built up by contractors from many countries, and I can't remember what it was I saw it on, but I want to say they were in a wall or frame for a building that was being constructed.

 

[rygD]

And the reason you think Phillips would be better is because a Phillips Driver can be used with it.

I never said this...

And yet you still suggested we could replace the screws as if there was no repercussion.

...or this.

I am done wasting my time.

 

[Yoyobuae]

I am done wasting my time.

Finally someone gets it... ^_^

 

[moxie]

Regarding assembly with Pozi, I honestly have no clue.  It isn't a drive type I am familiar with, and I didn't know it was used with electronics.  It wasn't until this thread that I realised I had seen them before.  That was on the other side of the planet from me, in an area built up by contractors from many countries, and I can't remember what it was I saw it on, but I want to say they were in a wall or frame for a building that was being constructed.

No, as I said, they are more common when it comes to wood screws. Nice big power-transfering flanks and no slippage - Very good for long self-tapping wood screws. I don't think I've seen pozi in electronic sizes. Therefor, torx

 

[levi]

Can you use a slightly too small torx driver with a torx screw and still work it effectively? Cos you can with Pozi, and slightly larger too. You don't need all the different sizes of driver.


Meh, I don't really care. Like I've said before, make the case properly this time and even flathead would be fine.

 

[God Ginrai]

Although it is -possible- to turn out a Pozidriv screw with a Philips OR square driver does not mean that it's a good idea to do so.  We would be much better off using Allen hex key or Torx where there is no ambiguity of what is the correct tool to use.  They're common enough to NOT be a barrier to entry to anyone who has half a clue to begin with.

 I don't see how there is ambiguity of the correct tool to use with Pozidrive. Even though you can fit a Phillips into it, it doesn't look at all like a Phillips screw.

And the reason you think Phillips would be better is because a Phillips Driver can be used with it.

I never said this...

 You essentially said that right here:

It is pointless to use Pozi with the expectation that people will use Phillips drivers...just use Phillips screws.  If you take away that "benefit" then you might as well go all the way and remove potential confusion by using something that is more common and obvious what it is.

Your exact words were "potential confusion".

And yet you still suggested we could replace the screws as if there was no repercussion.

...or this.

 Right here:

I am not trying to be rude, but if you dislike the screws that are used you can always replace them.

 

I am done wasting my time.

 Good. You're wasting my time as much as you are wasting your own.

-God Ginrai

 

[rygD]

Never said better. Never said there was no risk of damage.  You need to work on reading comprehension.

 

[spud42]

Phillips should be fine.

That's not a valid reason for using it...

True, I guess this entire Thread would not exist if Phillips screws would be fine. I hope we get an better solution that does not destroy the screw holes unlike within the Pandora. Not sure how much better the newer Pandoras are but on my old CC Pandora, basicly every screw destroyed their holes, already after 1x CAREFUL opening the case (I had to fix shoulder buttons).  The plastic of the Pandora case was really bad. In combination with the Phillips screws this was even worse. It must be better with the Pyra for sure.

ok, i have highlighted your post to get to what i think is the crux of this problem. its not the screw or what type of head it has , its what it screws into!  on another point you do not have to push down on a philips screw any harder than a posidrive.