Reality Check - Shipping Date

[sebt3]

BTW, there's no reason to stick with the current webinterfaced file-archive model; it seems to be very out-of-date. No reason at all.

This have been discussed to death many time.
There are many post disseminated in the forum that explain why. (in the devel section, you could start by reading the flamewar pxml/.desktop)

The main problem, here, is that, even if package management have proven it's strength, they don't handle well removable device (SDcard) aka : How package manager will handle the fact that I remove my second SD card (where my quake is installed) to look at some photo my cam just shoot ?

So the way devs though this, is :
A central repositoryfor the base system that will be used to upgrade the OS installed in the flash mem (they said that they will provide some solution for those without internet connection on the P.)
All the games will be stored on your SDcard. But as package management can't handle it gracefully. A new solution have to be found. that's the main reason behind the pxml format.
With pxml packaged apps on your SD card, if you remove the SD card, your launcher should be notified that the apps on this SDcard have to be removed from the launcher menu. If you insert an other card, it will be scanned to add the corresponding entries in the launcher menu.

(add this to the fact that a sizable proportion of the futur pandora owner are not that used to package management but to file-archive-model (Windows...))

The idea is there and can't be changed anyway (too late). When the P. will be shipped, the real life will learn us the draw-back of the idea and these drawbacks will be fixed.
And even if can't imagine a solution to deliver Quake(won't fit in the flash mem) within package management, I can't see why my fav emulator (once stable enough) can't be installed in the flash memory, and so provided by the package management.

Lastly, commercial indy-games won't ship with package management any time soon. So I think it's fair the free games ship the same way.

my few cents

 

[dflemstr]

Sorry sebt3, my post might have been a little unclear because that's not at all what I'm talking about
I agree completely with you, which was part of the reason why I remade the pxml file format, so that it's more future-proof. I understand that you can't have persistent packages on a platform without persistent storage.

What I'm talking about is the actual file archive online (which is currently being used): It seems to be REALLY old and come from the GP32 times... So we could develop a new interface for packages (that still is web-based) that enables us to
1. Navigate and find PND packages easier
2. Use front-ends for downloading PNDs (only for downloading and browsing, not something like APT or RPM). This could be achieved with a XML interface (you download a file à la RSS and use it to locate and search packages)
3. Have a more modern UI that fits on the Pandora screen and uses AJAX etc to reduce web traffic.

 

[Titcher]

Would the PXML route allow for automatic program updating?

 

[God Ginrai]

3. Have a more modern UI that fits on the Pandora screen and uses AJAX etc to reduce web traffic.

To tell you the truth, I would love to be able to download PNDs for my Pandora using terminal (Something that acts like yum or pacman or something, but is for downloading PNDs). I've become really accustomed to that way of installing apps, and I really like it.

-God Ginrai

 

[dflemstr]

. I've become really accustomed to that way of installing apps, and I really like it.

-God Ginrai

Exactly, me too! And just think about what you can do by scripting the downloading of apps, or, well - anything is possible if we're able to make frontends!

EDIT: @Titcher It would work, but it could be difficult. It's up to the front-end to manage the update methods, but for this to be possible we at least need an uniform versioning system and a package "name" system (like the packages in other distros have alphanumeric semi-unique "names" that allow the updating of them). This isn't possible with the current file archive, so then we would need a new site for that.
BTW: PXML has nothing to do with this really; the package management is separate from the archive format etc.

 

[WizardStan]

A simple wget would be all that's needed to "install" pnd files from the terminal. Write a script which takes the package name as an argument, and wgets it to an appropriate place on the SD card automatically, with error messages where needed, and you're golden. Have an XML file at a known location as has already been described, and you can wrap a gui around the script which wraps wget.

 

[God Ginrai]

To tell you the truth, I would love to be able to download PNDs for my Pandora using terminal (Something that acts like yum or pacman or something, but is for downloading PNDs"]. I've become really accustomed to that way of installing apps, and I really like it.

-God Ginrai

Exactly, me too! And just think about what you can do by scripting the downloading of apps, or, well - anything is possible if we're able to make frontends![/quote]Of course. I understand what you're going for, and frankly I support it. I think that if we do it however, that we should keep the old archive up as we're working out all the bugs and ease-of-use issues with the new one. Also, you need to convince key devs that this idea is worth it.

EDIT:

A simple wget would be all that's needed to "install" pnd files from the terminal. Write a script which takes the package name as an argument, and wgets it to an appropriate place on the SD card automatically, with error messages where needed, and you're golden. Have an XML file at a known location as has already been described, and you can wrap a gui around the script which wraps wget.

You're right. However I don't want something that just downloads. I'd like a terminal app that would allow me to search as well. If any of the Pandora apps have dependencies, then dependency checking might also be a useful feature.

-God Ginrai

 

[dflemstr]

A simple wget would be all that's needed to "install" pnd files from the terminal. Write a script which takes the package name as an argument, and wgets it to an appropriate place on the SD card automatically, with error messages where needed, and you're golden. Have an XML file at a known location as has already been described, and you can wrap a gui around the script which wraps wget.

There are some problems with this:
1. How do you handle versioning/uniform naming (yes there is versioning info but does it keep to some kind of standard?)? Auto-updating packages would be pretty neat, even if dependency handling is impossible (we've discussed this point already).
2. What if the app isn't uploaded as a PND but is wrapped in a ZIP or something? How do we prevent this at an early stage?
3. Can we be certain that file URLs don't change?
4. I personally would think that it would be pretty cool to use a really modern system for the whole file management, for example having URLs like http://archive.openpandora.org/apps/mygame/2.3 to download v2.3 of a program would be very handy if you want to pass URLs around, and you could have a more modern UI for the page with a tag system, ratings etc.
5. The parsing of full HTML pages to gain concise XML metadata, which in turn would have to be updated at every upload, is a bit overkill if you consider the possibility of being able to access some kind of database directly instead.

EDIT: And as said, this wouldn't be awfully difficult to do; I've done something similar in Lift already (a file sharing system with versioning, à la dropbox)

 

[Monk]

I was just amazed, having had my first experiences with Ubuntu recently, at how easy it could be for relative newbies to find and install programs using Linux repositories. It impressed me the degree to which the distro is geared towards "computer phobes" in that particular aspect. Of course, most people using Windoze already will be familiar with "download and run" files (or "download and take home and plug into Pandora and run" type scenarios) but I guess I saw how easy this could be for people who don't even know Windows yet enough to have that experience to hand. There are some (and we keep making mor eof them!).

Personally I can cope very well with the existing file archive (I have managed with the F200 and I've bought, downloaded, and installed World Of Goo for my Linux netbook) but I got a warm glowy feeling that Linux is finally getting less insistent on being "for geeks" and nearer "for Joe Public", beating the way people download their viruses etc. hands down. There's a HECK of a lot a user could do with a Linux machine without ever "having" to fire up a web browser. IMHO.

Having said which, an interface overhaul to the file archive probably wouldn't be a TERRIBLE thing

Ta,

 

[Ravnos]

Off topic, but how well does World of Goo run on your netbook? Which model of netbook are you using? Thanks.

 

[Monk]

Off topic, but how well does World of Goo run on your netbook? Which model of netbook are you using? Thanks.

Hi. Having completed the game under Windoze I must admit that, so far, I haven't played more than the first few levels of WoG on the netbook under Linux - but those first few levels (5 maybe?) ran flawlessly on my Dell Mini 9. I'm using a single bluetooth mouse but am quite intruiged by the multi-mouse option under Linux (apparently available for Wii and Linux but not for poor windoze). Sadly WoG doesn't ahve a good "Options" screen, so I am going to have to delve a bit more to get that working - but as my son enjoys pretty much all collaborative/co-operative games it may well be worth the effort. It's just... not that high a priority

The Dell Mini 9 only has a 1.6 GHz Atom, not the newer 1.66 GHz ones (rolls eyes). Battery life seems to be around 4 hours or less. I happen to have got one with 2GB of RAM and a 32GB SSD, which may or may not have been helping the battery life. Mobile broadband "modem" should arrive for it tomorrow, but just getting COMFORTABLE with Linux is fun - finding where and how it's easier or harder than Windows to just _use_ is a project I plan to continue enjoying

 

[ashdjones]

Package management on Linux is an absolute nightmare. I know some of you guys really like it but the whole thing is headache inducing if:

You are not permanently hooked up to the internet. Want to back up your programs. Want to share you programs with other people via removable media. Don't want to deal with the nightmare of dependencies or wait for the package manager to deal with it.

What is so hard about dropping a PND (which afaik is a renamed ZIP file anybody can browse with built in operating system tools) somewhere onto the card and having the firmware automatically find and register it? PXML sounds like a really great solution, and I hope it rubs off onto the wider Linux community.

 

[God Ginrai]

somewhere onto the card and having the firmware automatically find and register it? PXML sounds like a really great solution, and I hope it rubs off onto the wider Linux community.

We're talking about a package manager that would download PNDs. Same thing, it would just work like a standard repository.

-God Ginrai

 

[dflemstr]

Package management on Linux is an absolute nightmare. I know some of you guys really like it but the whole thing is headache inducing if:

You are not permanently hooked up to the internet. Want to back up your programs. Want to share you programs with other people via removable media. Don't want to deal with the nightmare of dependencies or wait for the package manager to deal with it.

What is so hard about dropping a PND (which afaik is a renamed ZIP file anybody can browse with built in operating system tools"] somewhere onto the card and having the firmware automatically find and register it? PXML sounds like a really great solution, and I hope it rubs off onto the wider Linux community.[/quote]We're talking about a package manager that would download PNDs. Same thing, it would just work like a standard repository.

Exactly, it's exactly the same as dropping PNDs on your SD, except that you now also have the option to install a new game in 5 seconds by starting a small installer app, typing the game's name, and pressing [Enter]
It can't become easier than that. We wouldn't do dependency checking. We wouldn't do anything except to download PNDs, drop them in a folder, and keep them up-to-date (optionally) through a simple versioning system (aka update your v1.9 version of a game with the v2.0 version, by downloading the new PND; dead simple). Main advantages with this are also that
1. you don't have to go to a web page just to download an app
2. you can make automatic (unattended) installation an option; imagine a simple way for a new user to download all the apps and emulators he/she needs in one click!
3. you can search packages by description, etc, making it easier to find what you need
4. we can make the whole process social and more community based, with ratings, comments etc.

I'm playing around with a small local webapp that would enable us to create something like this; nothing official of course, I just want to prove to myself that it's possible (I probably won't even publish it). It is very probable that a system like this never's going to happen, because we haven't heard anything from the devs yet to confirm that something like this is being considered.
It would be very fun, however, to create and use something like this (and it might become a selling point, like the Apple® AppStore®, through it's ease of use)

 

[God Ginrai]

Package management on Linux is an absolute nightmare. I know some of you guys really like it but the whole thing is headache inducing if:

You are not permanently hooked up to the internet. Want to back up your programs. Want to share you programs with other people via removable media. Don't want to deal with the nightmare of dependencies or wait for the package manager to deal with it.

What is so hard about dropping a PND (which afaik is a renamed ZIP file anybody can browse with built in operating system tools"] somewhere onto the card and having the firmware automatically find and register it? PXML sounds like a really great solution, and I hope it rubs off onto the wider Linux community.[/quote]We're talking about a package manager that would download PNDs. Same thing, it would just work like a standard repository.

Exactly, it's exactly the same as dropping PNDs on your SD, except that you now also have the option to install a new game in 5 seconds by starting a small installer app, typing the game's name, and pressing [Enter]
It can't become easier than that. We wouldn't do dependency checking. We wouldn't do anything except to download PNDs, drop them in a folder, and keep them up-to-date (optionally) through a simple versioning system (aka update your v1.9 version of a game with the v2.0 version, by downloading the new PND; dead simple). Main advantages with this are also that
1. you don't have to go to a web page just to download an app
2. you can make automatic (unattended) installation an option; imagine a simple way for a new user to download all the apps and emulators he/she needs in one click!
3. you can search packages by description, etc, making it easier to find what you need
4. we can make the whole process social and more community based, with ratings, comments etc.

I'm playing around with a small local webapp that would enable us to create something like this; nothing official of course, I just want to prove to myself that it's possible (I probably won't even publish it). It is very probable that a system like this never's going to happen, because we haven't heard anything from the devs yet to confirm that something like this is being considered.
It would be very fun, however, to create and use something like this (and it might become a selling point, like the Apple® AppStore®, through it's ease of use)


Keep me updated on its progress. I'm also very interested in such a system being available on the Pandora.

-God Ginrai