Q: Warranty At 800Mhz?

[differentSmoke]

Cresta! I was warned of impending fecal weather, and I see it wasn't a false alarm.

I think this whole thing was blown out of proportion, really. I think every major player in this thread(which I took the time to scan through but don't expect me to know it by heart) was dead wrong at least once, and you should all take some time to breathe. I don't envy the amount of pressure everyone must be in, and I empathize with volunteers who might feel their job is underappreciated, but please, canceling orders and killing open source projects honestly seems like a huge over reaction. And I do get where those reactions are coming from, but take a moment to step back and see the bigger picture, and I think you'll realize you're betraying your own intentions. Open Source and community projects are based on trust, and tolerance, and that means sharing your code even if you know it will be used by people you don't like. To me the symptoms of a healthy and mature community are not "everyone getting along just dandy", but rather being able to deal with people you outright dislike and having a discussion, even an unfriendly one, without having to resort to the extremes I read here. So please(and when I say please, I do mean please, as in I beg in the humble tone of a newcomer who's not a developer):
- no more talk of canceling orders
- no more talk of pulling back code
- try to keep personal issues personal(i.e. not in open threads)

That's my 2 pesos on the matter.

PS: I don't mind if I get insulted or flamed by this post(is better than being ignored), but if I do, please don't use it as an excuse to start any flame wars on my behalf, that's just not how I roll.

 

[wermy]

How many dev boards are there that have been running at 800MHz for the past year or so? How many of them have failed? If there have been many and none have failed, it seems like they could at least allow for SOME overclocking without voiding warranty....

 

[SNESFAN]

I think the most reasonable solution lies somewhere in between. Allow overclocking till a certain value without voiding warranty. Above that value further overclocking voids the warranty. OP won't have a chance to prove if someone went beyond that limit, so it depends on the users honesty to find out. Maybe no Pandora will ever fail because of overclocking and all of this is a non-issue. To block overclocking or to put nifty tricks that save that info to flash is no satisfying solution, because Pandora has been advertised as being overclockable till yesterday. I'm sure the OP team will find a solution we all can live with.

I think a "use as advertised" policy would be best. If it breaks perminately under any different specs.. then it's your own fault IMO I OC my intel chips based on what's stable and known not to fry my proc, if I did end up frying it... I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't ask intel to replace it.

EDIT: best buy on the other hand... well... that's a different story :lol:

 

[WizardStan]

How willl OpenPandora know that you've been indulging in overclocking if some other non-cpu-component fails?

First they will assume you are an honest person. Then they will either assume that you read the terms of the warranty and chose not to void it, or they will ask you. Also, that "set a flag in the NAND somewhere" would also be a useful thing. Since it is not the CPU that has failed but something else (TV out perhaps? Maybe the USB, or one of the nubs is failing?) it is trivial to just boot it up and look for that flag.
Nothing prevents the truly dishonest (and sufficiently clever) from getting away with these things if they want. They can lie, they can reflash the firmware, reset that flag, delete all log files that might indicate they were running at a higher clock, and no one will know. As a business, you have to have some respect for your clients and hope that they share that respect with you. If they don't respect you back, they don't deserve to be customers, which is what I think Craig was trying to get at in his own unique way.

 

[craigix]

1) Mali was not a customer.

2) We won't be blackmailed by Vimacs.

3) We will release a statement on overclocking. (we need to look in to this possibility you really can fry an ARM chip before it crashes).

I'm sorry if I offended any of you, it's an occupational hazard.

Now I'm going back to work. There is a lot to get ready for these cases.

 

[borgqueenx]

1) Mali was not a customer.

2) We won't be blackmailed by Vimacs.

3) We will release a statement on overclocking. (we need to look in to this possibility you really can fry an ARM chip before it crashes).

I'm sorry if I offended any of you, it's an occupational hazard.

Now I'm going back to work. There is a lot to get ready for these cases.

good luck!

 

[mali]

How many dev boards are there that have been running at 800MHz for the past year or so? How many of them have failed? If there have been many and none have failed, it seems like they could at least allow for SOME overclocking without voiding warranty....

Yeah, just wrap a devboard in isolation material and let it run till it freezes. Repeat till the first real Pandoras ship and check if the board is still working.

 

[Balzac2m]

Dude, Vimacs is gone?

Please, come back!

 

[kloplop321]

1) Mali was not a customer.
2) We won't be blackmailed by Vimacs.
3) We will release a statement on overclocking. (we need to look in to this possibility you really can fry an ARM chip before it crashes).
I'm sorry if I offended any of you, it's an occupational hazard.
Now I'm going back to work. There is a lot to get ready for these cases.

Best Guess is to ask Ti.

I support you Craig, but I think there should be a limit on how much overclocking is within the warranty(ie: 1 Ghz is out of the question, but 800Mhz is okay)
Some applications may depend on overclocking to not stutter(emulators for example)

 

[Kyo]

I don't see how mali not being a customer changes anything. He is a second batcher.

 

[ashdjones]

If they don't respect you back, they don't deserve to be customers, which is what I think Craig was trying to get at in his own unique way.

Okay so what if hypothetically (let's say this is years in the future) no, or almost no Pandoras have broken from software overclocking? However, at least half of the users (say) have overclocked to run N64 emulation or somesuch. Within that half, some users have had other problems such as the USB or TV-out stop working... however because they overclocked they aren't covered by warranty.

I can understand where everyone is coming from though. I Agree whole-heartedly that some stress testing needs to be done!

 

[aq21]

Ok, so how about we have a built in overclocking utility that lets you select the speed you want (and OPP level), but if put either outside of spec, it pops up a warning box notifying you that doing so will void your warranty (and of course will log the overclocking request to some super secret flash built into the omap so any repair requests can tell that the device has been overclocked...)

OK?

Not going to work. If overclocking causes real damage, it will probably be to the OMAP, so how are you going to read the super secret flash? You could open the OMAP and physically and examine the flash, but that is probably going to be more expensive than actually replacing all OMAPs in all Pandoras.

the could set it up like V-GER from Star Trek: The Motion Picture and have the Pandora fry something noticable inside then they can open it up and go "Ah, stupid overclocker"

Yes, now sounds like a great time to revise the board.

Seriously though, maybe have it make some kind of log file on the SD card when overclock settings are used, something normal users couldn't read? Have the OS create on on insertion so everyone has one period. When you send in your Pandora for warranty service you have to email them the file for warranty consideration? it would show the last change you made if any?

Getting serious for a minute, a small company that is funded by its users and using all free software does not sound like the ideal option for implementing this intrusive feature.

 

[Kyo]

At the start it was "if you solder on it, but the damage is unrelated, you will still get a new one". Unless that changed, I don't see why it shouldn't be the same with overclocking.

 

[mali]

If they don't respect you back, they don't deserve to be customers, which is what I think Craig was trying to get at in his own unique way.

Okay so what if hypothetically (let's say this is years in the future) no, or almost no Pandoras have broken from software overclocking? However, at least half of the users (say) have overclocked to run N64 emulation or somesuch. Within that half, some users have had other problems such as the USB or TV-out stop working... however because they overclocked they aren't covered by warranty.

I can understand where everyone is coming from though. I Agree whole-heartedly that some stress testing needs to be done!

Actually the laws in Europe prohibit this kind of universal warranty voiding. Even warranty stickers are irrelevant. The fault has to be related to a fault of the user. If you overclock und the USB port breaks, it's still covered under warranty.

 

[TrashyMG]

For my Beagleboard I'm planning on attaching a heat-sink to hopefully avoid any heat issues with overclocking. The Pandora's case is most likely too cramped to fit in a heat-sink of any form. I believe I saw somewhere in the Cortex A8 chip specs it said 600mhz default, up to 720mhz with reduced lifetime of the chip.. So yeah, not risking it on mine.

I actually work in a Semiconductor Fab / Testing facility I do know that the faster chips are just the same as the slower chips, just sorted to different speeds according to a speed and functionality test and then packaged accordingly. It's very possible the 600mhz one can operate just as well as the 720mhz ones since the tests tend to be stricter than what the customer needs. But driving it beyond 720mhz still may be pushing it and who wants to have a broken Pandora.

 

[BaDToaD]

Its very sad that it had to come to this, this was a very interesting project for the last 3 years.
I enjoyed helping out and working with really nice people, unfortunately you as self proclaimed project leader arent on of them.
You craigix, have been quite aggressive to customers on the board for some time now, that is not the way you keep a community happy and motivate people to work for _FREE_ on the project.
Also if i remember right you still own some gbax compo prices to some devs.

I'm sad that this went down this way
I'm sad the people like mw faith and ed will suffer for your arrogance.
I hope that those people who stayed loyal to this afford will get the money they invested back.
I hope that the devs who spent lots of time on this will some day get some reward for this.
I'm sad that i have to leave this project now as i just cant justify spending my own short time and therefore money anymore knowing that in the end it will benefit a person like you.

A few minutes ago i canceled my order with ed and gave ownership of my code to Skeezix, he is free to do whatever he wants with it and license it under his terms.

I want a pandora, i love the hardware and the os, its a great device and everything a homebrew fanatic could ever dream off but i cant justify giving any money into hands of a person like craigix.

Bye guys, it was fun while it lasted, i hope some day you all get the device you dreamed of.

You say that Craig has "been quite aggressive to customers" Well some customers have been VERY agressive to Craig.

You say that Craig still owes some gbax compo prizes to some devs. Chances are that when the compo was started Craig had some money but due to delays in the Pandora project he probably has massive debts now and can't afford to pay them. I bet he will when he can though!

If you're sad that it went down this way. Change it. You're the only person that can, we can't change your mind.

It is sad you have to leave to project... so don't leave! You don't want to give cash to Craig because of what he's like? You have no idea of what he's like. You only see the tired stressed remarks of a man who is pinning everything on this project. Do you not make mistakes and shout at people when you're stressed and tired?

It will still be fun for us Vimacs. The only person you are punishing here is yourself. One day we will get our Pandoras and I hope, one day you reconsider and get one for yourself. You wouldn't have contributed to the project if it didn't capture your imagination like it has the rest of us.

To me there are more important things than the Pandora handheld but to Craig, this is his future. His family's security rides on this project. He's bound to get stressed and pissed off at times. Wouldn't you?

 

[Exophase]

I don't want to fan ANY flames here, as things seem to be finally settling down. Just for those who choose to overclock and *possibly* void their warranty (depending on what the OP team decides) - the Droid's ARM Cortex A8, which is the same base chip that the Pandora uses can OC to over 1ghz, with 800mhz stable. Since many droid users have been doing this already for a while, this might be all be a fuss over nothing.

It's not really the same chip; it's OMAP3430 instead of OMAP3530. There are probably lot differences. I doubt Pandora's OMAP3530 will clock over 1GHz at all.

I want to add more to the warranty discussion and the threats going around.

First of all, whether or not Mali or anyone else voiced intention to be dishonest regarding warranty, this is something that has to be addressed entirely within OP's warranty policy. Depending on the customers to be honest is naive and stupid. You simply can't define a warranty that way. You need to cover what can be proven and not cover anything that falls under reasonable doubt. Most companies will give the customer some benefit of the doubt and take it in as overhead in order to avoid having to deal with greater overhead of tracking what they did and didn't do (where even possible). In this case, the odds of damaging the hardware due to overclocking within the warranty period are slim. Bottom line is, I don't think that enough thought has been put into warranty procedure, and to now snap at the prospective user base over not playing by the rules that were poorly defined from the start is not really very fair.

Now, about all of these threats of cancellation.

It's disgusting.

craig, I think you need to step back for a minute and realize just how lucky you are. You used preorders as funding. Not just manufacturing, but R&D funding. The entire time you strung people along with optimistic prospective release schedules. When Pandora was announce it was slated to ship 2.5 months later. And you had said before that you weren't going to take preorders until it was absolutely ready. It wasn't absolutely ready. It wasn't even close and you damn well should have known better. And the entire time since you've been stringing people along, when the real answer should have been "we have no idea." You've blamed every third party involved but in reality by taking preorders you should have assumed accountability.

Fact is, what you got out of those preorders was a loan. A loan with zero interest and no binding delivery on payment. This is a privilege that companies just don't get. And we can talk about how this all works because this is such a community focused endeavor and everyone is investing in its success, but it's still you who intends to eventually get rich off of it. And don't pretend that you don't.

Do you get it? These preorders you've obtained should be something of a miracle. But you seem to have taken that for granted.

I already said this, but if you have reason to doubt mali's honesty regarding returns (and you do) then you can refuse to honor his warranty. Your warranty procedure should have a path for this. If you thought about it for a second you'd see that this would be all you need to do to protect yourselves against what he's saying. But no, you don't want to protect yourselves, you want to punish him. You want to throw your weight around. How dare he consider being dishonest with you, because afterall, you've been completely honest all this time, right? How dare he take for granted the gift of receiving a Pandora.. one day. Because putting forth money a year and a half in advance doesn't even begin to cover it, does it?

And then you start threatening vimacs for telling you that you're violating the board rules. So what do you think, that vimacs is abusing his power? Because if he banned people based on what he thought of them I'm not sure you would still be here. But you very much are showing that you're willing to cancel orders because people have pissed you off. Even people who have contributed to Pandora.

Frankly, I'm not even sure that canceling preorders over personal disputes is even legal. You might want to at least determine that much.

At any rate, if I were any of the other OP members then I'd be pretty friggin concerned with this conduct.

 

[Kyo]

BaDToaD, it's really not an isolated incident.

 

[WizardStan]

Okay so what if hypothetically (let's say this is years in the future) no, or almost no Pandoras have broken from software overclocking? However, at least half of the users (say) have overclocked to run N64 emulation or somesuch. Within that half, some users have had other problems such as the USB or TV-out stop working... however because they overclocked they aren't covered by warranty.

That is EXACTLY what the original poster wanted to know, waaaaay back on page one. The original answer from Craig was "no, it won't void your warranty, so even if you overclock we will still repair your TV out or USB" (except fewer words, because Craig is Craig)
After some prompting by Mali, Craig changed his mind (overreacting a bit, in my humble opinion when he did) to say "overclocking can damage the CPU so it will void your warranty" which implies they won't fix your TV out or USB or nub or whatever, should they fail while overclocking.
A couple pages later, tempers began to flare wildly.
23 pages later, with tempers finally cooling, Craig is finally answering the original question in the only way that he could have answered to avoid this whole mess: "we'll look into it".

 

[WizardStan]

At the start it was "if you solder on it, but the damage is unrelated, you will still get a new one". Unless that changed, I don't see why it shouldn't be the same with overclocking.

That was a long time ago. Almost a year ago I brought it up and MWeston made the excellent point that even the skilled can make a mistake; leave a little piece of solder floating around, it accidentally touches something unrelated to the mod you made, and pzap goes the board. He said then, way back at the start of 2009, that even opening the case will void your warranty.