Preparing for Germany (2011-08-26)

[Invader Amoto]

Well, I think you need to remember that pretty much all of the people developing for Pandora are doing it for free. And the switch from current hardware to planned hardware is not like moving to a whole new system. It's like being on the same system with faster parts. The only issue would be that some developers may not care to optimize their applications for the original hardware. In reality, I don't see that as a big issue. Why do people even bother optimizing their programs now? I mean, it's not like they're getting paid. None of that is going to change later on.

Still pro upgrade, but I beg to differ.


Especially in the emu sector there is a lot of effort to optimise the emulation. I think the motivation for emulation optimization will decline if a) the emulator already runs fine on the devs Pandora on stock speed b ) only half of the emus user base demands optimization

But developers aren't optimizing emulators so that they can play the games, they're mainly doing it so that OTHER people can play the games. If the people want it optimized more so it works well on their hardware, then that's the same incentive that a developer has now to optimize.

 

[dreamer]

I really doubt I'll be in the 'worst case' scenario and get a Batch-1 with upgraded hw, since my queue is literally almost up.


If it really is more convenient to go for the newer SoC I understand. As long as I get my Batch-1 sticker ...

 

[ngrcat]

Well, considering that I'm still waiting for my batch 1 pre-order and may therefore end up with one of the last CC boards just before the new start rolling out, I don't really feel happy with these talks about upgraded boards. Though I guess it's inevitable, no use producing out-dated product while you can make better for the same prize. Assuming the premium prize is going to become the regular prize, I'm at least gonna get my Pandora cheaper. If there's going to be an option to upgrade my pre-order to the new board for a reasonable fee I may be interested. Also while ago IIRC there was some talk about selling boards, that for some reasons (keyboard and buttons contacts, charge circuit, idk..) can't be used in Pandora but still work otherwise. I may be interested in that as well.

 

[pmprog]

As every other tech updates, people can't just trade in their old PCs because it's not running the latest processor.


However, you could do a part exchange for old units, and then resell them as "refurb". One option

 

[milkshake]

As every other tech updates, people can't just trade in their old PCs because it's not running the latest processor.


However, you could do a part exchange for old units, and then resell them as "refurb". One option

lol what are you on about this is not an "Old Pc" where the latest processor would not fit the old motherboard!


in our case we are lucky that the old SOC (system on a chip) could be removed (with the right equipment) and the new one put in its place i.e. it doesnt need a new PCB revision to fit the new processor; the existing board could be retrofit with the new processor and then the old board would then be identicle to the newer ones without the need to sell any referbs at all.


so your anology doesnt work here im afraid.

 

[hdonk]

My Pandora seems to be able to do everything I want it to, OC'd to 850. The only reason I can see to upgrade the CPU would be for a must have application that needs the faster speed/more memory/whatever. If that came along, I could see myself spending ~£100 to upgrade it.

 

[SavageMind]

Honestly I would pay the extra 100 quid to upgrade mine. I look forward to home much upgrading can be done.

 

[F_Slim]

in our case we are lucky that the old SOC (system on a chip) could be removed (with the right equipment) and the new one put in its place i.e. it doesnt need a new PCB revision to fit the new processor;

That is not correct: you can not "unsolder" the old chip and replace it! It looks like you can however just solder a different one to the board ... well actually as far as I remember ED mentioned something about making a small revision on the boards anyway, to optimize the soldering process (actually in cooperation with the new factory), so even that should not matter.

 

[hdonk]

As every other tech updates, people can't just trade in their old PCs because it's not running the latest processor.


However, you could do a part exchange for old units, and then resell them as "refurb". One option

lol what are you on about this is not an "Old Pc" where the latest processor would not fit the old motherboard!


in our case we are lucky that the old SOC (system on a chip) could be removed (with the right equipment) and the new one put in its place i.e. it doesnt need a new PCB revision to fit the new processor; the existing board could be retrofit with the new processor and then the old board would then be identicle to the newer ones without the need to sell any referbs at all.


so your anology doesnt work here im afraid.

I suspect removing and placing a new POP would be in the realms of very difficult. You'd want to oven the boards first, as both the PCB & the components will have absorbed moisture, which is bad news even when spot heating the CPU to remove it. Then you have to clean the PCB, making sure you've not introduced any solder shorts between the ball pads. On the track pitch that's used on the Pandora PCB, after removing the CPU, there will certainly be lifted pad failures. The next question is can you manually place a POP? They're normally reflowed on, and I can't imagined reflowing the whole board just to put one down! Maybe with specialised equipment...


All in all the main (astronomical) cost will be the CPU change, not the new CPU itself. And there will be a significant percentage of failures.

 

[juliano]

I want a faster Pandora! I already have one and I would love to get another ona. Pandora 1.5 maybe?


Looks exciting.

 

[milkshake]

I suspect removing and placing a new POP would be in the realms of very difficult. You'd want to oven the boards first, as both the PCB & the components will have absorbed moisture, which is bad news even when spot heating the CPU to remove it. Then you have to clean the PCB, making sure you've not introduced any solder shorts between the ball pads. On the track pitch that's used on the Pandora PCB, after removing the CPU, there will certainly be lifted pad failures. The next question is can you manually place a POP? They're normally reflowed on, and I can't imagined reflowing the whole board just to put one down! Maybe with specialised equipment...


All in all the main (astronomical) cost will be the CPU change, not the new CPU itself. And there will be a significant percentage of failures.

I wasnt insinuating it would be a simple solder job I was anticipating that the new board population company in germany would already have specialist equipment which would allow such tasks to be completed, and of course it would be the user that would pay _NOT_ OP so the costs would be passed on directly including postage, i think thats fair?

 

[Timstertoo]

I'm end of batch 1. I'd obviously rather wait a bit for the faster cpu then get the old one. I assume most of the pre orderers feel that way and I think an upgrade is a good thing for the future of the Pandora and will help bring new customers in.


But what if cc ships the 950 remaining old ones tomorrow? (I know, not very likely) Because with sturdy shiny new German produced boards that have not been left to corrode and faster performance around the corner, who'd want the old one?


Interesting puzzle but the way forward seems obvious, the challenge lies in disappointing as little people as possible whilst not taking yet another financial hit by being stuck with 950 boards no one wants in his still to be shipped Pandora.

 

[Nintendo]

ED!!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you~


All this makes me happy!!! And lol @ "What the fcuk is this talk about?"

 

[shideneyu]

I agree with te upgrade of the batch 2 pandora´s board even I bought a Pandora thanks to a sell on he gp32x forum. However, you simply can´t forget people who are still waiting for 2 years and will have an old cc unit... And you can´t hide the fact of dividing the community by having two kinds of members: batch 1 and batch 2 (different cpu). The main problem is that there would be a two speed way of software development. I don't wanna see two version of Pandora software on the forum. I would prefer it would be the case for Pandora 2.


But if 1200 people could have this improve and not make their own software commnity, I´ll agree.


Don´t forget it´s highly possible that these first units won´t come before 2012...

 

[Mr_Loon]

Cheers for the update ED.


My gut feeling is that it would be a bad idea to change the hardware of the Pandora, this would inevitably lead to the fragmentation of the community and with such a small user base that may well be the death of it.


It would also be a kick in the teeth for the customers who gave the most support to the project.


If however, an affordable upgrade option were offered that would mitigate the previous point somewhat.


If this intention (to upgrade the hardware as and when this became possible) had been made clear from the start then my feelings would be slightly different.

 

[EvilDragon]

Okay, some more replies from me.


It is NOT possible to upgrade the old board with a new SoC. First, this would not make sense as it would probably be as expensive as simply producing a new board. Second, the circuit had to be changed a bit, so it's not just a drop-in-replacement.


However, I can very well imagine some upgrade program if people are interested in.


I would have to charge at least the price for the new PCB though, which seems to be roughly 200 EUR. I wouldn't charge for the time I need to replace the PCB.


Most people who got the Pandora already paid 250 EUR, except for the Premium customers. 200 EUR more would roughly be the same price a new customer would pay, seems fair to me.


Of course I want to help the already premium-sold Pandora-Owners as well, but as I need to be VERY accurate and careful with money, this needs to be very well thought of.


In worst case I could give existing users a discount for the new version, so they would have two Pandoras if they want to.


It's all being thought of right now, and I want the best solution for everyone, you can be sure of that.


BTW: I don't think the new Pandora would make the old one obsolete. Most ports we have are straight ports, since they run fullspeed without doing anything also on the current models.


Most emulators like PSX and N64 are already optimized as hell, it might be hard to squeeze more out of them.


Future more complicated emulators will probably also be optimized as good as possible, as then they would run faster on the new model as well.


The new version would be mostly helpful for stuff like FireFox and Desktop usages - or for emulators that are so demanding that they would never really be playable on the old system anyways.


The OS is the same and all PNDs would work on both system. Some might run slower on the current system, but that's also the case right now.


Most devs port and set optimization flags. There are not that many who actually take the time to really optimize a program for the current unit.

My gut feeling is that it would be a bad idea to change the hardware of the Pandora, this would inevitably lead to the fragmentation of the community and with such a small user base that may well be the death of it.

Why? It wouldn't be like GP2X and WIZ, where all programs would have to be recompiled.


The same PNDs and the same OS would work on both systems. Similar to your normal desktop PC.


If you have a slightly faster PC, some programs would benefit from that.


But it wouldn't split anything.

 

[mcobit]

I would also like an upgradeoption. Being able to run at 1ghz all the time without loosing neonfuctions and shorten lifetime would help a great lot. Maybe I would pay around 150 euro for such an upgrade.


Nice work ed! I appreciate everything you do to make the production start again. Hope everything will work out.


Edit: Wow ninjad by ed

 

[EvilDragon]

Don´t forget it´s highly possible that these first units won´t come before 2012...

They most probably won't. It takes a lot of time to setup the production, make a test run with 10 - 20 boards to see that everything works and then start with full production.


Also, parts need to be ordered, some have a leadtime of a few months (often you're lucky and get them faster than estimated, but you can't be sure of that) and I need to fund the money to start with the production as well!


That's what I'm concentrating on most right now, that's for sure!


So I don't think a new CPU end of the year would be unfair to anyone. But it would get new users to the system, which would lead to increasing interest from developers and ALL Pandoras would benefit from that.

 

[ibisum]

I want to invest, and I have access to a few millionaires who are interested. I need a business plan and details for what is needed.

 

[pmprog]

lol what are you on about this is not an "Old Pc" where the latest processor would not fit the old motherboard!

Aside from ED's comment that it wouldn't be a drop-in replacement. It's still the same - you didn't *have* to replace the motherboard when you went upgraded the 486s and early Pentiums. However, if you weren't techy enough to upgrade them yourself, you would have to just buy a new PC.


So the analogy does work.


I'd be tempted for the upgrade option, but depending on overall price - as my current Pandora does pretty much everything I want anyway at the minute without any problems