Preparing for Germany (2011-08-26)

[thatgui]

I say go for the newer components.


I dare that I won't be able to play some future games/emulators on my pandora (not because of compatibility but speed issues) -but if it helps get the new production rolling and attract new customers, why not.


That's capitalism - early adopters always get a kick in the butt

 

[hitbyambulance]

as a preorderer who hasnot yet received their Pandy, the concept of getting an Upgraded Unit is really appealing!

 

[trinz]

Here's another vote for the upgraded chips. Heck, I would wait even longer in the queue to get it.

 

[LineOf7s]

as a preorderer who hasnot yet received their Pandy, the concept of getting an Upgraded Unit is really appealing!

How would you feel if you were one of the last people to get their Pandoras from CircuitCo, and a few scant weeks later everyone else got a shiny new CPU, GPU and extra RAM? How appealing would it be then?

 

[DaMummy]

to be fair, you can forget about the whole "2 weeks"

 

[kulpae]

Weeeee, that's a good news.


I'm from the batch 2 and would be happy to have


a little bit better hardware, of course, also because I've paid more.


Totally fair in my eyes... XD


With the new DM3730-1000 SoC it'll be easier to get some preorders, as well.


Good work, ED!


btw: will there be two different builds then, OMAPES=3.x and OMAPES=5.x for different SoCs?

 

[Thorium]

as a preorderer who hasnot yet received their Pandy, the concept of getting an Upgraded Unit is really appealing!

How would you feel if you were one of the last people to get their Pandoras from CircuitCo, and a few scant weeks later everyone else got a shiny new CPU, GPU and extra RAM? How appealing would it be then?

I wouldnt care.


As long as i get what i payed for. ED mentioned the upgraded CPU would be easier to get, so it has a higher availability and may not cost much more. This is just normal for every piece of hardware. If a component is no longer available, you get the next newer one. Happens all the time.

 

[Narcoleptic.]

As a Premium user who will probably will get a CC Pandora, i don't think the whole higher end CPU deal will be a problem for me. Technology moves, anyone trying to keep technology BACK just has an epic case of jealousy.

 

[bzar]

I'd pay for an upgrade.

 

[White Demon]

I'm not 100% happy with all this talk about a hardware upgrade. It may help the ability to sell it to more people, but there is always the issue with those who already have theirs getting fucked over in terms of future games/apps.


The architecture may be the same, meaning that new program would all be backwards compatible, and that I don't have a problem with. What I do have an issue with is the speed being 1gHz standard. This means that developers (especially new ones with an upgraded P) would not bother trying to make their apps able to work on all Pandoras, as long as it runs at 1ghz then it will be okay, effectively screwing over anybody who has an original P. And no-one's even mentioned the faster 3D chip, causing further issues for people with older spec trying to run newer apps....


Now while some people have said this wouldn't happen for anything but the most processor intensive apps, but I personally can't see that happening. I've seen similar claims/promises happen in the past (both in the closed and open worlds), that newer systems would not kill off development for older systems in the short term, but within six months (which I would call short term) development for the older system was dead and buried. It's happened before, and I can see it happening here too as people stop optimising past the newer base speed.


All I can see an upgraded board doing is driving a wedge into what is a small community, and that simply is not a good thing.

 

[Invader Amoto]

I'm not 100% happy with all this talk about a hardware upgrade. It may help the ability to sell it to more people, but there is always the issue with those who already have theirs getting fucked over in terms of future games/apps.


The architecture may be the same, meaning that new program would all be backwards compatible, and that I don't have a problem with. What I do have an issue with is the speed being 1gHz standard. This means that developers (especially new ones with an upgraded P) would not bother trying to make their apps able to work on all Pandoras, as long as it runs at 1ghz then it will be okay, effectively screwing over anybody who has an original P. And no-one's even mentioned the faster 3D chip, causing further issues for people with older spec trying to run newer apps....


Now while some people have said this wouldn't happen for anything but the most processor intensive apps, but I personally can't see that happening. I've seen similar claims/promises happen in the past (both in the closed and open worlds), that newer systems would not kill off development for older systems in the short term, but within six months (which I would call short term) development for the older system was dead and buried. It's happened before, and I can see it happening here too as people stop optimising past the newer base speed.


All I can see an upgraded board doing is driving a wedge into what is a small community, and that simply is not a good thing.

Well, I think you need to remember that pretty much all of the people developing for Pandora are doing it for free. And the switch from current hardware to planned hardware is not like moving to a whole new system. It's like being on the same system with faster parts. The only issue would be that some developers may not care to optimize their applications for the original hardware. In reality, I don't see that as a big issue. Why do people even bother optimizing their programs now? I mean, it's not like they're getting paid. None of that is going to change later on.

 

[thatgui]

Well, I think you need to remember that pretty much all of the people developing for Pandora are doing it for free. And the switch from current hardware to planned hardware is not like moving to a whole new system. It's like being on the same system with faster parts. The only issue would be that some developers may not care to optimize their applications for the original hardware. In reality, I don't see that as a big issue. Why do people even bother optimizing their programs now? I mean, it's not like they're getting paid. None of that is going to change later on.

Still pro upgrade, but I beg to differ.


Especially in the emu sector there is a lot of effort to optimise the emulation. I think the motivation for emulation optimization will decline if a) the emulator already runs fine on the devs Pandora on stock speed b ) only half of the emus user base demands optimization

 

[Thorium]

Well, I think you need to remember that pretty much all of the people developing for Pandora are doing it for free. And the switch from current hardware to planned hardware is not like moving to a whole new system. It's like being on the same system with faster parts. The only issue would be that some developers may not care to optimize their applications for the original hardware. In reality, I don't see that as a big issue. Why do people even bother optimizing their programs now? I mean, it's not like they're getting paid. None of that is going to change later on.

Still pro upgrade, but I beg to differ.


Especially in the emu sector there is a lot of effort to optimise the emulation. I think the motivation for emulation optimization will decline if a) the emulator already runs fine on the devs Pandora on stock speed b ) only half of the emus user base demands optimization

I think there isnt a big difference. For some games you have to overclock to 800Mhz or even 1Ghz allready. And some emulators could realy benefit form a faster CPU like Saturn, PSX, N64, DOSBox. Even if they are 100% optimized. Especially Saturn will never run fullspeed at 600Mhz.

 

[Galaxis]

Hardware update ist the right way to go - there's no use building an outdated system because of a (misplaced, in this case) sense of fairness. My batch 1 Pandora will still be a fine piece of hardware. Maybe have a look at the darn wifi chip too if you're doing it ... What happens to the inventory that's still in the US? Do you write it off when CC doesn't manage to produce anything more from it?


If things are going forward, I'd suggest setting something up with Kickstarter or similar services (there's one targeted at germany, but I don't remember the name). It's basically another way to collect preorders (look at Quadshot for a recent tech example), but Kickstarter seems to have a fairly high visibility with people who are looking to spend money into startup ideas - mostly a project marketing platform from a seller's point of view. Costs you roughly 10% of the project goal in processing fees, though.

 

[F_Slim]

I think there isnt a big difference. For some games you have to overclock to 800Mhz or even 1Ghz allready. And some emulators could realy benefit form a faster CPU like Saturn, PSX, N64, DOSBox. Even if they are 100% optimized. Especially Saturn will never run fullspeed at 600Mhz.

Absolutely! Also one of the main points against the Pandora you can read from people is that the hardware is getting old and even their fridge has a faster CPU (who cares that it has no propper keyboard or gaming controlls?)


I know I am completely biased here, since I am still waiting for my Pandora (Batch 2). So of course I would like to see better hardware ... but I am happy to see so many people who already have their Pandora don't mind too much, and still see the benefit for the whole project. That's why this community is so great! I know I would be a bit grumpy ...


I do see a problem here though: what will happen with the boards from CC?


Once the decision is made that the new Pandoras will have better hardware, every preorder that gets an old board will feel somehow cheated I guess? I mean, in that case I would rather cancel my order and make a new pre-order to get the new hardware (even if I'd have to pay more).


Another premium option to upgrade will bring make (a lot of?) people (most likely the same that were mumbling about the Pandora being too slow by now ...) start rambling about being blackmailed (again) and forced (again) to pay more money (again) ... true or not ...

 

[milkshake]

as long as there would be a way to have my board upgraded with the new SOC (I would pay the cost of this of course) I would think that is fair at least the offer the option that way, people who dont want to upgrade dont have to and people that do will be the cost of the upfrade so they can get the benefits of the newer SOC and gfx.


did Ed even say anything about extra ram? and also would tne new boards come with more NAND storage? or is that a seperate compnant to the SOC?

 

[milkshake]

oh also would it be possible to consider a better wifi chip as the one we currently have SUCKS big time, of course its much better than it used to be but im sure it would just be easier to replace the wifi chip with a better one.

 

[Sandman]

I vote for better hardware as well. But as my unit has not been shipped yet, I would definitely want the new components and not the old one from CC. I would be willing to pay for an upgrade, but it should not exceed 50 euro. I would definitely like to have an email claiming my unit is near before that money has to be sent.


I do not think it is unfair. The ones that have a Pandora at least have a Pandora to play with, some for over a year iirc. This new unit is probably going to take till 2012 so the ones waiting will be waiting even longer.


Better hardware is likely to be in the general best interest of OpenPandora. The Pandora would be more attractive for future buyers and developers. The current hardware is not as appealing as it was in 2008/2009.


It appears to me that currently there are different units as well: some can overclock to 1GHz and some cannot. This is similar, though maybe not as big, as having new components.


EvilDragon: what does your business plan say about the time needed till the shipping of new units?

 

[MarioPandio]

It's very pleasing to see the general consensus so far, is in positive support of the possible hardware upgrade that I think Exophase was the first to suggest for OPT. I thought the stockpile meant the original CPU's had all been bought in advance though but regardless, it is definitely in OPT's interests to make this move.


The faster hardware will be far more appealing to future customers given the moves in the market since the Pandora was delayed so much. Many of us have had the priviliedge of owning a Pandora for a long time and getting a lot of use out of an already great piece of kit. Some of us (myself included) probably also feel a little guilty, as due to RMA's, we've actually owned several units that would have hit other Batch 1 pre-orderers hands already, if it weren't for the need to replace broken units to exisiting people (rather than proceed with the queue, which would have also sucked).


I personally wont be bothered by the upgraded hardware (although optimisation issues may creep in), as it will be time to purchase Pandora 1.5 instead then (even if i have to rob a bank), in order to support the project for Pandora 2, which be far more likely to reach fruition if the newer hardware attracts the kind of sales numbers it should.


Its also interesting to see that the remaining 1200 pre-orders, equate to 3000 units, so we finally know for sure that ALOT of folk bought multiple units.


I wouldn't mind an upgrade option be made available to those who would desire it, over a completely new Pandora 1.5 purchase but I would suggest that this option not be available until after all the remaining batch 2 people have finally received their pre-orders. Might seem unfair to delay this but it would be a mammoth task to track each individual units PCB and Cases by serial no, as they are depopulated then re-populated with the faster chipset, re-assembled and sent back out by OPT to the correct customers. I would hope folk would see the logistics of that, on top of trying to get all the new orders done aswell.


Did the second nub company go under?


Thanks for the news ED. I hope the Germany move works out well, the Bank or Notch are willing and that you get a ton of new pre-orders on the updated gear

 

[moxie]

My quick response to the hardware thing: Of course you should go for upgraded components. This little box was designed in 2008. Time has passed. And, as is hinted in the OP, components become cheaper when they are produced in bigger runs. So if a somewhat faster processor/memory combo is available, for the same (or cheaper) price and with better availability, you'd be daft not to go for it. It has, actually, several benefits:


* Obvious one is obvious: There will be a bit more oomph in the box. It has been mentioned that "Oohh, the community might be fractured", but as has already been said, that ought to be very little. The same kernel and the same general OS means there ought to be no software incompabilities. Later customers might get more frames out of the most advanced emus, but that is not much of a fracture.


* Somewhat obvious one is somewhat obvious: Something to appease the screaming hordes of trolls. "It is outdated" - Well, then we up the spec, then. Might bring in some more customers who were spec-wary before.


* Not at all obvious one is...well: If you go through with it, it will send another message here: That the team behind the Pandora is not going away soon. I'd say that most people outside, looking at us, would think something like "Ok, it was possibly an interesting experiment, they bit off more than they could chew, and now they will hobble through the goal of delivering all promised machines and then go belly-up". Like so many other "startups". Doing something like this - "Ok, now a few years later, we still deliver (or possibly "finally", but that might be a bit frank ), and not only that: we update the specs with time - is a rather clear signal that you're still going.


In addition: If you also (which ought to be no problem, at least technically, if I understand you correctly) offer an upgrade path for existing owners, as has been suggested above, then we have another message. To the technically aware: that the pandora is indeed a sound design. To most vaguely aware people: That this is a company/community that tries to do the right thing, and that the pandora is not a technical dead end once it arrives. Or, to put it more bluntly:


Put that in your pipe and smoke it, iPhone {lastgen} owners


So, in short: Do it! Make good on the promise that it will be fully compatible. And by all means, offer some sort of upgrade path for existing owners - For maximum geek attractiveness, offer it both as "send it in and we will replace the board" and, for a somewhat lower price, "We send you a new board and trust you to install it yourself".