Release PND management suite

[Christoph.Krn]

This is starting to become conversationy, and not a bug report nor a feature request.

That was very unfortunate. I've accdently pasted my post into the wrong tab.

It's wrong? How?

I referred to the attachments of my post, not those of your post.


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The example upgrade all button looks awesome

That's just the existent 'Upgrade All' button, except wider, using a non-proportional font, and with a full-size guihint (post-preview02) tacked onto it at a good position. This is what I meant with "better integration", and is the reason I think that allowing hints to be toggled on/off is not necessary at all.


People will typically know the controls of "The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword" by hard eventually because they are typically playing this game for several hours straight, but one should not assume that this will work the same way with a graphical package manager too (even if its controls are simpler), no matter how useful and/or featureful it may become one day. Bear in mind that in most games, the hints shown in menus cannot be disabled, unlike the giant hints system in the aforementioned Zelda installment.


You might remember that I had already told you via PM that I'd help with guihints integration in PNDManager even before it was released (the way I see it all PND managers are of extraordinary relevance to the whole Pandora universe). But you have never asked!


I could technically help work on the rest of PNDManager, too, by the way. However, not everything that's possible should be done -- if I started to work on PNDManager, it would likely change significantly, which might not go along very well with what you are having in mind. It's your software, your decisions. If you want to, I can make some button and icon suggestions, and then you can decide whether or not you want to use any of them. In any case I will be working on the next release of guihints first, though.

On the other hand the buttons in your samples don't look very finger friendly.

Here are some of my considerations related to this:

• 'Show' button: Screen space in the side-panel is at a premium. For touch control, tapping the highlighted list entry can be used as an alternative way of opening it.
  
• 'Sorting' button: It's unlikely that someone uses the touchscreen and cannot comfortably find and reach the Select button (unless I'm missing something here).
  
• Filter buttons:
  The guihints combinations in filter buttons are supposed to make toggling a very swift thing to do.
  
• People do not typically toggle filters all of the time, and in cases where they do, they will likely be significantly quicker using the keyboard even if they're using the touchscreen for everything else.
  

It's difficult and expensive to fully explain what I think it would be like to use that interface using words, so it probably makes most sense if you either try it out, ignore it, or use the ideas in any other way you want.


If you decide to try it out and it doesn't work, I have some further improvements.

Also: why is the info bar in the left side?

Mainly because I've put an indicator into the right-hand side of the upper bar.


I think that with the existence of a side-panel (no matter what side) what people /might/ perceive is just that the screen as a whole slides to the left, irrespective of where its contents are located and what they are, but I have no information whatsoever that I could back this assumption up with, other than experience and gut feeling. This is why I did not mention this in the post's text, but I assume it might be worth experimenting with.


This is something that would benefit from an actual usability study; maybe if porg does some testing some day.

The title bar is a bit confusing place for such control-specific information.

I've only used guihints there to make a connection to the filter buttons. Technically, it could just say something like "sorted" or show a symbol, so long as there is any kind of always visible feedback.


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PS: 7 is about the number of things a typical human being is capable of keeping in short-term memory, maybe that was what had come to your mind.

 

[Mr_Loon]

PND Manager is great, good to see it evolving into a truly excellent way of managing your PNDs.


I've got a couple of feature requests :


1) When removing an application could an option be given to remove the appdata directory as well?


2) Is it possible when using PND Manager to allow users to log in to the Repo and rate and comment upon software? This would be particularly useful if ratings and comments could be added whilst downloading updates / new software. It would be great if the login info could optionally be saved to allow auto login for future visits.

 

[Cloudef]

1) When removing an application could an option be given to remove the appdata directory as well?

Yes, is possible.

2) Is it possible when using PND Manager to allow users to log in to the Repo and rate and comment upon software? This would be particularly useful if ratings and comments could be added whilst downloading updates / new software. It would be great if the login info could optionally be saved to allow auto login for future visits.

Discussed in another thread.

 

[bzar]

Christoph.Krn, going to answer you later today. Compiling an answer to your posts always takes a while

 

[bzar]

I referred to the attachments of my post, not those of your post.

Oh, right.

That's just the existent 'Upgrade All' button, except wider, using a non-proportional font, and with a full-size guihint (post-preview02) tacked onto it at a good position. This is what I meant with "better integration", and is the reason I think that allowing hints to be toggled on/off is not necessary at all.

Yes, the added tint to the guihint coupled with the layout and proportions between the guihint and the rounded rectangle make all the difference visually. I do get what you mean by better integration. At the time I initially designed the UI I had other priorities (make something I can definitely get ready before deadline), but I have no objections to that kind of integration as long as other aspects of the UI don't suffer from them.

People will typically know the controls of "The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword" by hard eventually because they are typically playing this game for several hours straight, but one should not assume that this will work the same way with a graphical package manager too (even if its controls are simpler), no matter how useful and/or featureful it may become one day. Bear in mind that in most games, the hints shown in menus cannot be disabled, unlike the giant hints system in the aforementioned Zelda installment.

Hm, true. I guess if the hints could be integrated better they could be always on and still look good

You might remember that I had already told you via PM that I'd help with guihints integration in PNDManager even before it was released (the way I see it all PND managers are of extraordinary relevance to the whole Pandora universe). But you have never asked!

Same old excuse: I had no time. I needed to make dictatorial snap decisions during the compo to get it feature-complete before the deadline. Now that things are a bit more relaxed I can indulge in discussion.

I could technically help work on the rest of PNDManager, too, by the way. However, not everything that's possible should be done -- if I started to work on PNDManager, it would likely change significantly, which might not go along very well with what you are having in mind. It's your software, your decisions. If you want to, I can make some button and icon suggestions, and then you can decide whether or not you want to use any of them. In any case I will be working on the next release of guihints first, though.

I'm playing with the idea of asking you to design a complete package management UI which I would then implement after PNDManager is somewhat mature. Making new UIs based on the same package management plugin is quite fast, it's the low level feature implementation that takes time. It would probably be faster to realize your vision this way than start hacking on PNDManager. For the current UI I'd probably enjoy our current arrangement more.


Of course making a new UI would have the downside of a larger codebase to maintain, but I want to consider PNDManager "done" as a UI at some point anyway. Adding more and more stuff tends to bloat UIs and it's often better to just gather the experience gained and design a new one. Because all of the low level work can be reused, it's not even a huge waste.

Here are some of my considerations related to this:

• 'Show' button: Screen space in the side-panel is at a premium. For touch control, tapping the highlighted list entry can be used as an alternative way of opening it.
  
• 'Sorting' button: It's unlikely that someone uses the touchscreen and cannot comfortably find and reach the Select button (unless I'm missing something here).
  
• Filter buttons:
  The guihints combinations in filter buttons are supposed to make toggling a very swift thing to do.
  
• People do not typically toggle filters all of the time, and in cases where they do, they will likely be significantly quicker using the keyboard even if they're using the touchscreen for everything else.
  

It's difficult and expensive to fully explain what I think it would be like to use that interface using words, so it probably makes most sense if you either try it out, ignore it, or use the ideas in any other way you want.


If you decide to try it out and it doesn't work, I have some further improvements.

Tapping the highlighted entry currently opens the entry. I included the button for obviousness.


True about reaching the select button, but I wanted both pure game controls and pure touch screen controls be options.

Mainly because I've put an indicator into the right-hand side of the upper bar.

Oh, that makes sense then.

I think that with the existence of a side-panel (no matter what side) what people /might/ perceive is just that the screen as a whole slides to the left, irrespective of where its contents are located and what they are, but I have no information whatsoever that I could back this assumption up with, other than experience and gut feeling. This is why I did not mention this in the post's text, but I assume it might be worth experimenting with.


This is something that would benefit from an actual usability study; maybe if porg does some testing some day.

Sounds interesting, don't really have anything to say to that

PS: 7 is about the number of things a typical human being is capable of keeping in short-term memory, maybe that was what had come to your mind.

Yes, that's it. Thanks.

 

[foxblock]

I would like to note (without having read the thread entirely), that I am not able to update anything using PNDManager - this includes the program itself.


Synchronizing the database works fine, browsing, too, but when I click the update button (or the corresponding physical button) simply nothing happens.


I updated to the latest version of the program manually and also cleared out my appdata once to no avail.


Note though installing (and removing) new PNDs works fine.


Also using the touch-screen to navigate the app is really cumbersome as many clicks are not registered as it seems (it definitely is much more fluent in general XFCE use or other apps).


Especially in the PND overview (where you have icons, names, author and size) I am not able to select anything using the touch-screen (again: have not read the entire thread, might already be on the list, sorry if so).


Selecting in general seems to be the problem, (kinetic) scrolling works very smoothly.


It's kind of unfortunate because the program at least looks very nice and polished (good icon set, good use of guihints, sane button mapping, clean and logical interface, though the function of the different screens only indicated by icons needs some time getting used to).

 

[DaMummy]

foxblock, try deleting the libpndman appdata dir instead of pndmanager

 

[bzar]

I would like to note (without having read the thread entirely), that I am not able to update anything using PNDManager - this includes the program itself.


Synchronizing the database works fine, browsing, too, but when I click the update button (or the corresponding physical button) simply nothing happens.


I updated to the latest version of the program manually and also cleared out my appdata once to no avail.


Note though installing (and removing) new PNDs works fine.

If you have previously used one of the first versions of the PND, you need to delete libpndman directories from appdata from all SD cards (as DaMummy said). This is because a critical fix was made that changed the database a bit. Should work fine.

Also using the touch-screen to navigate the app is really cumbersome as many clicks are not registered as it seems (it definitely is much more fluent in general XFCE use or other apps).


Especially in the PND overview (where you have icons, names, author and size) I am not able to select anything using the touch-screen (again: have not read the entire thread, might already be on the list, sorry if so).


Selecting in general seems to be the problem, (kinetic) scrolling works very smoothly.

I think this is because the scrolling and clicking handlers are fighting over the mouse events. For example install buttons don't have this problem, as they are not in a scrollable surface. Maybe if I'll change the rest of the views to be more like the installed view it will be better? Do you have trouble selecting packages from the list there?

It's kind of unfortunate because the program at least looks very nice and polished (good icon set, good use of guihints, sane button mapping, clean and logical interface, though the function of the different screens only indicated by icons needs some time getting used to).

Thanks


The screens' functions are also indicated by the title bar once you select them.

 

[foxblock]

If you have previously used one of the first versions of the PND, you need to delete libpndman directories from appdata from all SD cards (as DaMummy said). This is because a critical fix was made that changed the database a bit. Should work fine.

I had he same problem with the first version of the program and it still persists after deleting both the libpndman and pndmanager directories from appdata.


(Oh and the Upgrade all button does not work either).

I think this is because the scrolling and clicking handlers are fighting over the mouse events. For example install buttons don't have this problem, as they are not in a scrollable surface. Maybe if I'll change the rest of the views to be more like the installed view it will be better? Do you have trouble selecting packages from the list there?

Sounds reasonable, though I have the same problem in the installed view, basically any scrollable list.


You could probably implement some kind of dead-zone for the scrolling, so it only registers as such when you move the cursor X pixels and as a click otherwise.


For some reason I had fewer problems in panorama/milkyhelper (the problem appeared there, too, but clicks seemed to register more frequently).

The screens' functions are also indicated by the title bar once you select them.

Yeah "once you select them" is the key here, as I said I needed some time getting used to them and figure them out by trial and error (mostly the installed list seemed to be a problem as I associate the icon with "downloads in progress or finished this session" (think Steam) and not installed apps, while it is both - the rest is rather straight forward actually and well indicated by the corresponding icon).


EDIT: I should probably mention that I am on Hotfix 7 B1.

 

[Cloudef]

I had he same problem with the first version of the program and it still persists after deleting both the libpndman and pndmanager directories from appdata.


(Oh and the Upgrade all button does not work either).

Verbose output from libpndman, would be helpful here. I'm not sure how you enable that in pndmanager, B-ZaR knows.

 

[bzar]

from settings.cfg in appdata set the verbosity setting to 3


EDIT: Also be sure you remove libpndman appdata from ALL SD cards. Not just the one with PNDManager on it. (had to reiterate, wasn't sure from your response you did)

 

[foxblock]

Just to note (this was cleared in IRC): It was a fault on my part, I left another SD in the second slot (which usually belongs in my camera and did not have any pandora things on it to begin with) which somehow ended up with a libpndman appdata directory messing things up.


After deleting that updating works fine and dandy

 

[bzar]

Uploading version 1.1.2.0 now. It contains nothing but performance enhancements. I still have some ideas how to make the performance better, but let's start with these.

 

[bzar]

The annoying-as-hell upgrade bug will be fixed in the next release (the one where upgrades won't show up on the list)

 

[bzar]

Tried turning on OpenGL rendering with the new Qt build, here are my findings:

• Zero tearing (which was awesome)
  
• A tiny bit smoother than without
  
• Text gets corrupted after a while (after that most text is unreadable, probably messes up the font texture)
  
• If pandora goes to standby, it won't wake up and needs a hard reset
  

So... no hardware rendering for now

 

[fusion_power]

Well, I usualy don't have open programs when going in standby, so at least for me, this wouldn't be a problem. HW rendering sounds very nice, I'm sure you can fix it some day.

 

[bzar]

The text rendering is not for me to fix (unless I want to contribute to Qt4), but it will probably be fixed in Qt5 since the entire rendering pipeline has been rewritten. The standby bug sounds more like a feature in the SGX drivers.

 

[PowerGod]

I didn't followed all the posts, but is it normal that sometimes the touch is unresponsive ? I mean, the "kinetic" sliding works ok, and always, but when I select an item from the list I have to click it many times


EDIT: ok, i'm not the only one

 

[bzar]

Released version 1.1.3.0. Now with threaded syncing and bugfixes. There's still a short pause after syncing while the PND list is being populated, but it's a lot better than before.

I didn't followed all the posts, but is it normal that sometimes the touch is unresponsive ? I mean, the "kinetic" sliding works ok, and always, but when I select an item from the list I have to click it many times

In installed view you need to tap an item twice to open it, since the first tap selects an item. Do you have these issues in other views as well? Do they occur if you use the stylus (it may interpret your finger tap as a scroll)?

 

[PowerGod]

Released version 1.1.3.0. Now with threaded syncing and bugfixes. There's still a short pause after syncing while the PND list is being populated, but it's a lot better than before.

I didn't followed all the posts, but is it normal that sometimes the touch is unresponsive ? I mean, the "kinetic" sliding works ok, and always, but when I select an item from the list I have to click it many times

In installed view you need to tap an item twice to open it, since the first tap selects an item. Do you have these issues in other views as well? Do they occur if you use the stylus (it may interpret your finger tap as a scroll)?

With the pen:


- perfectly perpendicular to the screen and with a very firm hand, it works always, in every menu


- used in a normal "drawing" position it works most of the time, but not always


With the finger:


- in every menu sometime I have to click 4/5 times an item to select it, in the installed view I was able to select every single elements from top to bottom (of the screen) different times, but suddenly I wasn't able to select anything for 3/4 second of trials


- even double clicking on an already selected item in the installed view very oftem don't work